Well, when you consider that the Jewish community here in France is one-tenth the size of the Muslim community, and that not all Jews keep kosher kitchens these days, it may well be the case here that Orthodox Jews either buy from within their own community or they buy the Hallal products on offer.

Actually, I'm a little surprised at the poor quality of the meat your roomie got. Generally I've found that kosher meat was better quality and justified the higher price - at least the poultry. But there are regional differences everywhere, I guess. I also remember one American expat several years back who was very upset to find that the meat here in France was "tough" - which is to say that it isn't marbled like back in the States, because of being grass fed. It could be the difference in the source of the meats used by kosher butchers back there (or back then).
Cheers,
Bev

 

Interestingly enough, I've found that adherence to kosher law is a huge cultural difference between French Jews and US Jews--I grew up in an ultra-liberal Jewish suburb of New York City where only a handful of particularly observant families kept kosher (I had one kosher friend in middle school, and my atheist Jew dad would openly scoff whenever I would mention inviting her over, because that meant having to order different Chinese food. It's only upon moving to France that I've discovered how much the first 20 years of my life was one big New York stereotype). In my experience, most Jewish people in France, even if they only consider themselves culturally Jewish and almost never go to temple, keep kosher, while in the States it is the indicator of being religious.

I've also heard that this is a big difference between Sephardic and Ashkenazi Jews, as Sephardic Jews are more ironclad about certain traditions (for example, they still separate men and women in synagogues. That was a huge culture shock for me when I heard this, as only very observant Orthodox/Chasidic temples do that in the Ashkenazi communities in the States.)

 

Living here for 3.5 years has been a huge education for me. The civil laws related to the separation of church and state, the way people observe their religion and how religion is actually practiced.

I was raised Jewish. Going through high school with observant Jewish friends taught me much. One of the major differences between France and the US is the openness of how one is free to celebrate their beliefs (or not). Yes there are laws in the US for the separation of church and state but back in the US, you often see a person wearing a Cross or Star of David. Not here. It is very rare. I would often be approached walking to the train while living in NYC by a Jehovah Witness on a daily basis. Not here.

One of the major difference that one might consider is history. World War II was a war which one German goal was to eliminate Jews. Religious beliefs became quite personal after that. I fully agree with the other poster that each sect of Judaism practices their beliefs differently than the next.

I live in Bar le Duc. There is one synagogue here that closed during WW II. It is opened to the public one weekend per year. It is the weekend of the Museums. I have met a few people who are Jewish who are members of the same family. If they want to go to Synagogue, they must drive one hour to Nancy which has an active congregation. On the Sabbath, according to Jewish laws, you are not permitted to drive. People adjust to what the is available to them. I strongly suspect that for the truly observant Jew, one lives near the synagogue.

I converted to Roman Catholicism thirty years ago. Last year, at the hospital, I was wearing my Cross around my neck and one of the interns asked the nurse what was around my neck. A rather interesting observation on my part.

Yes, religion is reflected, practiced very differently in the US but consider the Muslim communities here. They still fight to wear their clothing, the burka or head coverings, to openly practice their religion freely. Last year, I observed a construction worker on his knees praying in the early evening, stopping his work, rolling out his mat and going to his knees. This was not on a side street but the major road in the town. It might become a far greater issue for France in the future as the Muslim community continues to grow here. Warm regards!

 

Separation of church and state goes back to the revolution although the state maintains the church buildings which is why you don't see huge thermometers outside churches when they're raising money for a new roof.

The Islamic community in France is already the largest in Western Europe although since the majority are from a North African background they are mostly concentrated in the larger towns where most immigrants are to be found. Not far from my house is a large resistance memorial and cemetery. It amuses me to point out to some of my more prejudiced visitors that at least 20% of the graves are Islamic. Mort pour La France had no religious or racial barriers it seems.

 

It amuses me to point out to some of my more prejudiced visitors that at least 20% of the graves are Islamic. Mort pour La France had no religious or racial barriers it seems.

Too right, and without them it could have been a very different outcome and liberation certainly would have been more difficult and taken much longer.

 

Have moved this out on its own, as I think it's maybe a tad disrespectful to discuss religion under the heading of "junk food."

Still, France prides itself on being a country of contradictions, and France is home to the largest communities in Europe of both Jews and Muslims (go figure). And at that I have seen quoted the following figures:

Population of France: 60 million
Muslim population of France: 6 million
Jewish population of France: 600,000

Talk about the power of 10's! And Protestants don't even figure into the numbers at all so can only be figured to be significantly smaller. It's a very different demographic than back in the US. Also, the Muslim population in the US tends to be primarily from the more well to do classes, whereas here in Europe, we have more folks from the less well-to-do sectors of society in their various countries of origin, and many from the various former French colonies, which adds other forms of consideration/complication.

France still considers itself to be more or less "Catholic" even if they claim to be "laïc." I know I shudder every time the local mairie announces the funds they are spending to fix up or renovate the church in town. But the government took over the churches in order to get the Church out of the school system, so we're kind of stuck with it. (Would love to see the government give the churches back to the Church as one of their "cost cutting" measures.... now that would be a flap that would be fun to see!)
Cheers,
Bev

 

France still considers itself to be more or less "Catholic" even if they claim to be "laïc."
Bev

Yes It was surprising to me that at a friend's funeral, in a packed church, as she was a popular lady, everyone except my wife and I stood in line to sprinkle holy water on the coffin. This may just have been custom or it may be that there is really no such thing as a lapsed catholic.

After we had lived in our tiny village for about 2 months one of our lovely old neighbours called to invite us to a "soiree" at the church. At the time soiree was about the only word we recognised and to us meant a party, we even considered taking wine but decided that as the church is only 50m away we could pop home if wine was required. Needless to say we found ourselves part of an eleven strong congregation celebrating mothers' day or something. It lasted about 90mins and we haven't been back since but we were relieved that we didn't take wine.

 

That did not work.

BBC Four - The Dark Ages: An Age of Light, The Clash of the Gods

You can watch it on you tube

 

In my early days here, a neighbor of ours died and we went to the funeral. At the end, everyone lined up to sprinkle holy water on the coffin. I stood off to one side and told my husband to do the honors for us both. He was somewhat "shocked" but my Dad always encouraged me to attend different religious services as an observer - not to take part in the ritual itself.

Standing and sitting when everyone else did was fine, but he told me that you should never do something if you don't understand (and believe in) the significance of the act. He was mainly referring to taking communion, but I think the holy water thing falls under that heading. I did get caught short one time at a funeral here (for a young woman I had known in the local AVF) when they did some "greeting" thing that resembles what I learned in a Protestant sect as "passing the peace." However I couldn't really do whatever it was you were supposed to do because I had no idea how it worked. I think the guy who held my hand and said whatever was a little freaked out when all I could do was smile and respond "merci." But that's exactly the sort of thing I just don't do in someone else's church. Here in France, however, attending the funeral of someone you knew (or a family member of someone you know) is very much expected, no matter what your own religious beliefs may be.
Cheers,
Bev

 

I bloomin love saucisson lentilles or whatever they call it - it is yummy.

 

Oh I love green lentils with saucisse too - am almost waiting for the end of the Inidian summer to once again start making it on a regular basis

 

I must say whenever devout Catholicism is mentioned I think of an Irish woman we know who can't stop saying "bless you" or " bless him" and just doesn't get it that we don't share her devotion or beliefs, she even once said "oh bless him" after we were discussing Hitler. I also shared an office with a Jehova's Witness for 18 months which was an eye opener.

 

All sorts of people say silly, crude and unwanted comments when they get into a religious atmosphere. It is a bringing together of people whom have no other connection with each other - but this can also be its strength. They can share life experience from opposite ends of the spectrum - if this is their true desire - to share.

 

Oh dear - I knew there was a risk to the theme of this thread.

I must say that I appreciate the French approach to this, which is to say that religious beliefs are part of one's "private life."
Cheers,
Bev

 

Well said Bev and something a great many countries and people could learn a lesson from.

 

I'm currently reading Europe, by Brendan Sims. It's a rather long history of Europe from 1453 to the present - but it's interesting because the author does makes lots of connections with the Ottoman Empire and how it was viewed as a "threat" to Europe at various times.

Have just gotten through the section on WWI where he discusses how France (and the other European powers) drew on their various colonies for soldiers and what promises they had to make to get the canon-fodder, er, I mean support. It's almost spooky to see how colonial ambitions and decisions made during the war have come back to haunt us in the current day situation. I'm sure more of this will continue as I get into the WWII part. (Also interesting to see Sims' angle on US history that was, apparently, very much part of European strategy - the Civil War, Pancho Villa and more.)
Cheers,
Bev

 

MLM... you might look at the Harkis - soldiers from Algeria (and other ex Fr colonies) who fought for France in WW11. There's lots of emotion round this in France so you may need to tread carefully.

You may also look at at the British Indian Army which recruited from what is now India and Parkistan - therefore Hindus and Moslems. My father was an officer in the Indian army and he had only praise for the soldiers under his command. He did say that food rations caused problems (beef / pork) but intelligence and humanity found solutions.

My father did his bit in N Africa and Italy (like Spike Milligan if you have read his books). My father saw dead and wounded and much suffering in the fight against Hitler. It's very difficult debate to say whether operations in Italy impacted directly on the liberation of France.

Similarly, I don't see how you can single out a particular group of people and determine their impact on the liberation of France. It was a WORLD WAR after all.

DejW

 

I think EverHopeful's point was more to highlight a minority group's importance on a large historical scale in contrast the particular cruelty of the prejudice against them that they face nearly every day in France. Mahgrebin people are not exactly championed in history books.

 

Here's a few numbers, and a couple of thoughts. I come from a family with a rather long military background.

The information is a matter of record and easy enough to find.

There were quite a few Muslim troops in WW2.

You could start with the Senegalese Tirailleurs that fought in the Battle of France in 1939, later as part of the Colonial Infantry Division within the French First Army.

Who's to say the Indian Army (remember Monte Cassino and the Winter line, and the subsequent Gustav and Gothic lines?) didn't ease the taking of France, in conjunction with troops from the US, Britain, New Zealand and the French, because those German troops, and later reinforcements, couldn't be redirected to Normandy?

(The Allied force involved at Monte Cassino, the US Fifth Army, was half US (VI Corps) and half British (X Corps), one Corps each under General Mark Clark, until the US Corps was reinforced by the US II Corp, when VI Corps were withdrawn and replaced by the French Expeditionary Corps.

The French Expeditionary Corps numbered 122,000 French troops - 60% Magrebhis, 40% French (those mostly from North Africa). They'd already fought in and liberated Corsica. After Rome fell, the Corps was absorbed into the French First Army, (4 French Divisions with 4 North African Divisions and 1 North African Brigade-equivalent with still over 50% Maghrebi soldiers in total).

The 3rd Algerian Division (the most successful of any French division in WW2, but with very heavy losses) was just one of the divisions (with 2 Moroccan divisions fighting with them in Italy), fighting on in the invasion of Southern France, liberating Toulon, Marseilles and Cannes, then into the Vosges Mountains fighting through the Colmar Pocket. They cleared Strasbourg and had more fighting in Alsace, before they fought as part of the French II Corps, spearheading that Corps' travel through the Siegfried line, taking the XVIII SS Corps in the Black Forest and then Karlsruhe and Stuttgart.

The 3rd Algerian Division's traditions and battle honours are (rightly) proudly carried on by the 3rd Mechanised Brigade today, garrisoned at Clermont-Ferrand, although some of its regiments are at different locations.

By 1945, the Indian Army was 2.5 million men strong. Of this, over 600,000 were Muslim. Naturally most were occupied in India and Burma, but Indian Army Divisions took part in campaigns in France, East Africa, North Africa, Syria, Tunisia, Malaya, Burma, Greece, Sicily and Italy.

It's recorded that there were 15,000 Muslims in the US Army in WW2. There were of course Muslims in the British Forces (as distinct from the Indian Army), including those perhaps less-known outside the UK such as Noor Enayat Khan, to say nothing of massive numbers in the Merchant Marine.

I wouldn't want to make a guess to what extent which forces were responsible for what was clearly a joint effort that depended simultaneously on many groups. For example, it would have been very different without the Soviet Union - could you say they had a hand in the liberation of France? Since Britain did this, or the US did that...and so on, as infinitum. As Dejw says, it was a World War, after all.

 

Thanks for all that great info, Kaju. And I do think the Soviet Union had a hand in the liberation of France given the huge numbers of forces and supplies the German army had to send to the eastern front.

My original point was much as Cune describes. Also, it concerns me hugely that such a large and diverse range of people are today so easily tarred with the same brush by so many.