I think the situation, you are referring to applies in most Hispanic countries (including here in Spain) and in many others (non-Hispanic). The process is long and slow for women to achieve any form of equal treatment. It is happening. Two female friends of my wife's (SWMBO - she who must be obeyed!) are engineers (fully qualified), many others here in the village are qualified and practising in occupations normally previously the domain of men. A lot of women, especially the older ones would not have things change - they are content to stay home and look after the house, sweep the street in front of it, etc BUT will muck in when the olives have to be picked (they are no proud strutting peahens). Although legislation helps, the major sea-change has to start at home, when the female is still young and gets the idea that her brother is no better than she is.. Of course, often she is more studious and better at academic subjects, provided she is given the chance.

Under Franco and in the dim distant past, there were very few opportunities for women to progress in education beyond the age of 10 or 11 and with the education system largely in the hands of the church and religious organisations, there wasn't much hope of a change. The Republic in the 30s greatly weakened the church's power although a certain amount was restored under Franco but it never regained its former supremacy.

All in all it has to start at home, in your own home although, it sounds as that your vote has been vetoed in the matter anyway.

 

I teach private English classes and all but one of my 4 students are women somewhere in their thirties. One is divorced and the other 2 are single, one with a novio, one without. They have university degrees (one a PhD in chemistry) and professional careeers. they are sweet, smart, ambitious and a lot of fun to work with! I think of them as the future of Mexico, while realizing that they represent a small minority of Mexican womankind.

 

But mighty oaks from little acorns grow and these women represent the future provided they don't get bullied by macho males who fear that these women and their like are a threat to their 'imagined' supremacy and that thought bruises their fragile and insubstantial egos.

 

I know that what you say is certainly the stereotype but in actuality we really don't find such to be true. Maybe it is because so many of the men went north or whether it is that a majority of expats here are women but in our little pueblo almost all of the key jobs are held by women and they certainly aren't any more deferential than in the US. They certainly tend to not be flamboyant but it is clear whom is in charge.
In talking to one of the really key woman leaders, I asked about what she sees as the biggest stumbling block to even more woman leaders. The response surprised me as it was quinceana(sp?) and the impact it had on getting more girls to complete secondaria schools.
She really wished the concept of woman at 15 was either abolished or moved to 18 or 21. She knows that a losing fight but the impact is very real as too many girls bail out of school and look for husbands only to end up pregnant and back with the family.

 

She really wished the concept of woman at 15 was either abolished or moved to 18 or 21. She knows that a losing fight but the impact is very real as too many girls bail out of school and look for husbands only to end up pregnant and back with the family.

Here in Spain, it is the opposite - the girls want to stay on and get better educated. It is the boys mostly that want to drop out. SWMBO teaches English at a private academy and she is overrun and this in a village of less than 5000. One thing we have noticed here in comparison with UK is that the kids are so involved in out-of-school activities : extra classes in Maths, French, English, Music and so many are involved in karate, judo, football, tennis, basketball, village band, etc. School is from 8-8.30 in the morning until 2-3 in the afternoon, then it is lunch and a brief rest (siesta time) then off to other activities as above until 9.30 at night. There is no hanging around on street corners getting up to mischief and hardly any vandalism.

Also here the age of consent is only 13 but you don't see teenagers pregnant or pushing prams about. In fact we are only aware of there being one teenage pregnancy in the village in the over three years we have lived here and we only know about that because we are linked into the village grapevine.

 

Nicely put Isla. The celebration I attended for the daughter of a family friend was just that, “Sweet”.
As an American woman married to a man (Mexican or otherwise) I can commiserate with the issues Mexican women deal with regarding male “dominance”. My husband and I bump heads occasionally over these archetypal issues and "holding my ground" sprinkled with patience (on my part) and lots of love is a winning solution. Most Mexican men I’ve met truly love their wives and push comes to shove, if the wife makes a stand, her husband, (after much huffing and puffing) will rethink his position. I've had to adapt a bit for my husband and he does the same for me. That’s what marriage is. I love watching those "tough" Mexican men turn into awestruck little boys dancing with the women they love at big family gatherings. At a Mexican wedding there is a traditional skit where the bride ties an apron on her husband and hands him a broom; a comic attempt I believe to remind men that they are different, yes, but no better than women. Women here are strong; in my opinion, stronger than men. They grow up fast, raise children, work in the fields, run the stores, keep the books, create a home and are from my observations, the glue that binds Mexican families. And yes, most older women wouldn't change those things. I hear so often that the strength of Family is one of the reasons Expats move to Mexico. In general, people here seem much happier to me than folks back home. As a college educated woman with majors in Int’l Relations and Womens’ Studies I’m tuned to listen to the deeper messages being portrayed in societal relationships. Women here are important and I believe Mexican men know this. Many younger women are striking out and raising their voices, their education, and influence for their communities and country. We’ve become a global society and this is a very good thing. The times they are a changing… But, to call the women of Mexico the most downtrodden gives me reason to ponder… in a Country whose Matriarch, the Virgin of Guadalupe is celebrated and revered.
Life in the USA--- Teenage pregnancy is epidemic. The concept of ‘family’ has/is collapsing. How many times have I been called “honey” or dismissed with a grunt and a smirk because the mechanic at the garage has no idea that I likely know more about my car than he does? (I completed gutted and restored my 1969 VW) Why was I still being paid in 2008, less for the work I performed than the man who was less qualified than I? Illegal yes, but still far too prevalent. Why do we still have to hear derogatory remarks questioning a woman’s ability to serve as the President of the United States? It is still commonplace for a woman to change her name to her husband’s when getting married; and, then we are referred to as Mrs. John Brown. Women here in Mexico keep the name they were born with. My husband thought it was horrific that my mother’s family name is not part of my own. Why do so many men in the United States shop for women like they’re buying a car? Women in the United States are expected to hold a job, raise the children, clean the house, cook the dinner, pay the bills, etc. etc. etc. and look good for their husbands in the evening hours. I’m not sure I can tell the difference between the United States and Mexico. The divorce rate is horrific and abuses abound in both countries. Change needs to happen everywhere.
Maybe the only difference here in Mexico is that men “are what they are” and don’t feel a need to hide it. They don’t seem very concerned with being “politically correct”. As the daughter of an Italian American father I know that beneath the bravado and machismo lies a heart of gold and I adore him. I believe that’s also true of most Mexican men.

 

Nicely put Isla.

Thanks. The form is mine, the ideas are FHBOY's.

I enjoyed reading your post, but for now just wanted to make a comment about this:

It is still commonplace for a woman to change her name to her husband’s when getting married; and, then we are referred to as Mrs. John Brown. Women here in Mexico keep the name they were born with. My husband thought it was horrific that my mother’s family name is not part of my own.

I was surprised to read that you think it is still common for a woman in the US to change her last name to her husband's when she marries. Maybe it's because most of my married friends are in their fifties and sixties, but I don't have any who changed their names when they got married.

The reason that Mexican women keep their last name when they marry has nothing to do with preserving their identity. It's a very patriarchal custom, dating back many centuries, I'm sure, all the way back to Spain, and is a way of ensuring that the woman makes obvious her connection to a man, her father. By the way, in Mexico, and all Spanish-speaking countries, married women can add their husband's last name to their own with a "de", as in Carolina García de Hernández.

 

Thanks for the enlightenment. I love learning new things. I guess I'm not too surprised though. I'm sure my husband doesn't know this, and he still thinks it rude that my mother gets no credit for my being here! My mother appreciated it I know that some women now choose to keep or hyphenate their last name when getting married but seems to me there are still many who take the more "traditional" route.

When Jose and I married this past December there was nowhere on the application form to make a "name change" as I was told it "isn't done". I had asked out of curiosity. Can I assume then that my use of de in front of my husband's patriarchal apellido would only be used informally to indicate my marriage to Jose?

 

When Jose and I married this past December there was nowhere on the application form to make a "name change" as I was told it "isn't done". I had asked out of curiosity. Can I assume then that my use of de in front of my husband's patriarchal apellido would only be used informally to indicate my marriage to Jose?

I believe that the use of "de" with your husband's name is a bit old-fashioned and rather formal.

 

Many of us here are products, or by products, of the women's movement of the 60's and 70's in the US.

Having worked in the non-profit sector, specifically with organizations, for 25 years, I can tell you that in my experience most of the "real" work was done by women. I could always depend on them, while men, not to be disparaging, held the "power titles", it was the women who made it work. That has changed a bit, but go into any non-profit and it will hold true.

Oh, and the "weaker sex"? I'd like to see any man squeeze a basket ball through a mail slot and survive.

My prospective daughter-in-law will have a hyphenated last name and I am in total concert with that. She has lived 30 years, established herself and her accomplishments and should not be forced by custom or law to give up that part of her identity. Back 40 years ago when I got married, it was not so much the case so my wife took my last name. Let me tell you...I've seen her job in the family, and I don't want it.

As much as the most mucho macho men protest - just ask them to oppose their mothers (or their wives) - doesn't happen. We can bluster all we want - but the secret to a great marriage is still two words, "Yes, dear."

 

We can bluster all we want - but the secret to a great marriage is still two words, "Yes, dear."

I knew you would see it my way: "Happy wife, happy life."

 

Hahahaha... I love men. ROFL Hahahaha. I grew up in a household of men. Women are wonderful, but men are such fun! I don't believe me husband will ever "yes, dear" me. He loves his 'hard-headed woman'. We're a good match for eachother. Gotta have a sense of humor above all else!

 

Yes, sense of humor #1!

 

Exactly. Well put.
My gut feeling here in El Sauz is that women are generally content and happy with their lives. I don't think they would change much if they had the chance.

Happy Nuptials as well to Circle 110. May you have a long and happy marriage!

 

Thank you to you both!

 

I'd like to add my "mazel tov" to the congratulations!

 

Thank you so much Isla Verde!

 

¡No hay de qué!

 

¡Oyen! ¿No saben que la idoma de este foro es el ingles? Definitemente no de 'yiddish', por favor.

 

Shouldn't that be el idioma?

According to my large hardcover copy of The American Heritage College Dictionary, mazel tov is now part of English.

 

The funny thing about this conversation is the possibility (very real) of having a woman as president of Mexico. Ironic, huh?

 

It will be a very interesting summer till election time. I'm looking forward to seeing how people respond to her campaign.

Mazel Tov is now part of english? I wonder if it's included in the Oxford English Dictionary? Wish I still had mine.

 

Lots of Yiddish words have been part of English for quite a while: nosh, schmuck, matzah, nudnik, chutzpah, and many, many more!

 

I'm well familiar with their useagein the english language but had no idea that there were formally (as entries in the english language dictionary) considered part of the english language. I figured yiddish is yiddish, english is english. Although now that I'm thinking about it, I'll bet taco and burrito are in the english dictionary as well!

 

>>women still make 78 cents to every dollar a man makes

Yawn. This is only because many women work fewer hours; get degrees in useless things like women's studies, are much more likely to work part time. Yes, there are people so simple they expect part-time employees to make as much as full-time employees. There are very few cases of women actually making less money for the same hours; the same seniority, on exactly the same job. Pure hoax.

In the big cities, while you slept, younger women actually make more on average then men do. It is time to put tired, old hoaxes to rest.

Frankly, I have said several times I do not wish to discuss certain issues, because this board is not a political board. Apparently I am wrong. This thread is almost pure politics, and I find it somewhat offensive that political hoaxes are presented as fact here.

 

Dear yawn - if you find this thread offensive then why are you here? It is my belief that those of us on this thread were enjoying our discourse. As my grandma often said "if you don't have something nice to say, don't say anything at all". Please do us all a favor and take your vitriolic attitude somewhere else.

 

As the author of "78 cents to every dollar", I meant nothing political by it. It is just the reality I have learned from many years in business.

When I sent up the Red Flag over political/religious discussions, what I feared was that we'd divide this community and by doing that, lose a camaraderie and respectful discourse that we enjoy.

 

I have two daughters-in-law. One has taken my son's last name, the other and her husband, my son, have both chosen to hyphenate their names.

Me, I took my first husband's name, in 1973, but took back my own when we divorced. My husband and I agreed that it made no sense for me to change it once more, when we married, so, when the two youngest were still at home, we were the A-B-C household, with three last names among the four of us.

What did it matter? We were a family, and that's what was important.

What people are paid for their work matters; to them, to society. When one factors out part time work, it's still true that women make less in the US, for the same, or equally responsible work. I remember, back in the 80's, when my coworkers and I, RNs, were fighting for a fair contract with the hospital associations in the Twin CIties.

One of the local stations interviewed a man, whose job was cleaning the insides of airplanes before they took off. He made much more money per hour than we did. In the interview, he "explained" why vacuuming under the seats in an airplane was a greater responsibility than monitoring the cardiac activity of a patient in an ICU: because, for the most part, women were nurses, and men were plane cleaners.

To believe that that mindset is gone, in any part of the world, is to be naive.

In my company, the women say that the husbands disapprove of their businesses until they become successful, then they quit their jobs to "help."

In fact, one of the most successful distributors in the world is a Mexican woman whose husband forbad her to do the business, and she defied him. She told him that if he ever thought that she was being a bad wife or mother to their kids, he was free to divorce her. But that they needed money, they needed a future for their kids, and she would see to it that they got it.

When I first heard that story, she was on a stage, telling it. He was standing with his arm around her, weeping.

My heartfelt belief is that any human being, male or female, who believes that members of the opposite sex are fundamentally different, and not worthy of the respect that they believe themselves worthy of, is a deeply flawed human being.

Thank goodness for the strong men and women who are raising women today to be as strong as men, and men to be as tender as women.

 

Thank you for sharing your story. I did ask my Mexican husband when we got married if he wouldn't lend me one of his apellidos . I feel badly watching service personnel try to put my name into their computer screen with only one apellido!

My University studies in the field of international relations with a specific focus on women's studies has been one of the most valuable things I've ever done for myself. I will never considered the time spent as "useless". I continue to believe that what I learned and continue to discover is important for all of us, men and women alike. When we can, as men and women, get to a place where mutual respect and admiration is the norm, we'll be a much happier bunch of folks! Our differences are what make us so powerful together.

 

It is only customary in English speaking countries that a woman takes her husband's last name. The ironic thing about this is this is a tradition goes back to the middle ages, when women were considered possessions Now women in English speaking countries seem to have more rights then anywhere on the planet!

 

I am teaching free English classes to several young students, mostly female. I explain the US system of surnames and changing names when marrying. For example, I write out my wife's legal name in Mexico, and also in the US. I asked if it would bother them to change their surname when marrying. They didn't seem to think it would be a big deal as long as it was normal where they lived.

The only thing that seemed strange to them is when I told them in times past, as an example, if a women married Robert Smith she might have signed her name as Mrs. Robert Smith. Now it seems really strange, but in those days it made some women feel more secure.

I think I need to tell them of the time when women wore gauzy net like veils on their hats, and if they wanted privacy from men looking at them they would pull that down over their face. But, though I have read about it, I really don't know when it was. I think I remember my mother had such a hat when I was a boy on the 40's, but I don't know if it was hers or something old she had from her mother's day.