I think the issue is mainly 'benefits'. This could be solved easily if they do like in Spain. If you didn't work before, you won't get any benefits, no matter how serious your situation might be.

For every year worked you will get 4 months 'contributions' based unemployment benefit. After that, you are on your own.

Not sure why is this so complicated to do in the UK.

People wouldn't emigrate to the UK just to get benefits, knowing beforehand they won't get anything.

.. and this would be done for UK citizens as well... of course.

 

I have said the exact same thing in the past.
I'm totally baffled by this stance often seen in the UK, just about every EU nation does not freely open it's doors to all EU citizens. But then again I really don't think Joe Public exactly know what they are talking about to begin with so that doesn't help.

Hey it might not fix the issue totally but why ignore it and jump straight on the anti immigration bandwagon.
'You will never know if you never try' type of thing, until then I don't think the argument is valid.

 

I think the important point to grasp is that this should not be an issue of race or ethnicity. It is an issue of numbers and resources. Any attempt to make it into an issue of race should be firmly resisted.

No country in the world has open borders. Even the EU has placed restrictions on who can take advantage of the free movement of peoples policy. For example, the UK and ROI were the only two member states who allowed free entry in 2004 from the former Socialist bloc countries. As I experienced this in my part of the UK, it served to cause great friction between communities and incomers over access to scarce resources and was of benefit chiefly to gangmasters and other employees.
Of course, no-one consulted the 'ordinary' people of the UK as to whether they wished their communities to be drastically changed. It's interesting that some of the most vocal opponents of Eastern European immigration are from second and third generation Brits of Asian or West Indian descent.
It's not just the UK which is experiencing difficulties with Eastern European migration. Germany, Denmark, the Netherlands and even Spain have voiced concerns.

The problem with the UK is that welfare benefits are residence and not contribution based. After three months a migrant claiming 'self employed' status has access to the same range of benefits as a UK citizen. If the projected numbers arrive next year which is likely -and don't forget that the number entering in 2004 was widely underestimated - then this could be unaffordable.

As for the position of UK migrants in Spain...if it can be proved that no demand will be made on Spanish resources then I see no problem. Same if migrants come to the UK with a job and resources. No problem if numbers are restricted.

I would understand if the Spanish or any government put reasonable restrictions on immigration.
As I said, it's not about race. It's about numbers and resources..
That's where Gordon Brown got it wrong when he called Mrs Duffy a bigot. The voices of the Mrs Duffys of this world are too often ignored by politicians of all Parties who dismiss such views as 'populist' and unworthy of respect.

One reason perhaps why politicians are not respected....

 

Hi - Yes, the 'Guardian' poll results demonstrate, clearly, that the respondents are motivated by their concern about the numbers involved, NOT, by racist tendencies! Why our UK politicians fail to take note of the 'Mrs. Duffys' in our country, I cannot fathom.
One of the issues which seems to get blurred in any media discussion of British attitudes towards 'Immigration' is that there are parts of the UK which are, already, heavily populated by so-called 'immigrants', many of whom are, in fact, British citizens - namely, people from African, Indian, Pakistani, Cypriot, Bangladeshi et al descent, either born in the UK or with parents or grandparents who'd been granted the right to settle in the UK!

I worked, years ago, as a Youth Worker, within the centre of Blackburn. At that time, in the late 70's, there was huge animosity at what was described as the 'take-over' of certain areas of the city - shops, cinemas, schools etc. were perceived as being 'foreign' and many white British residents complained, vehemently, at having 'lost' their neighbourhood identity - and of having to travel much further to access traditional British food shops and pubs! One such area, in which I worked, was nicknamed 'The Kyber Pass!' This was NOT a sign of affection on the part of 'native' Blackburn folk..!

Again, during my Post. Grad. studies, in Community Education, I visited schools in both Coventry and the' Black Country'. Teachers in schools, both Primary and Secondary, with a high percentage of British Indian, Pakistani or Bangladeshi pupils, spoke of their pro-active, 'inclusive' lessons, which ensured that all pupils, of whatever nationality or background, could participate, equally - with attention being paid to each and every cultural festival and celebration.

But, when I consulted the white parents, they rejected such glossy and optimistic talk! Instead, they focused on the diminishing number of 'native' British pupils in their own children's classes - and they did not wish their offspring to be subjected to 'multicultural' lessons in which 'Christmas' would exactly have the same status as 'Divali' and where the folklore of India or Africa would be studied with the same zeal, and for the same class-time, l as that of Great Britain!

Such matters still rankle, in many parts of the UK, today, IMO. it's within this context that opposition to yet another influx of 'foreigners' must be judged. The concentration of naturalised Brits. from Africa, India etc. within specific parts of the UK, along with changes in the law to accommodate certain of their cultural practices, has led to the false notion that their numbers are much higher than is actually the case - and that many,many more are still to come, with an even greater impact (perceived as 'negative') upon 'native' British cultural traditions, the Laws of the country - and the NHS!

I would very much agree with OPs. here who suggest a 'contributions' based Unemployment Benefits system for the UK - but, I wouldn't wish to see claimants left without any income, once their Unemployment benefit had run out!

In Cadiz city, it's been reported, this last week, that the current 'official' level of unemployed individuals is now 17,000 - out of which some 7,500 have no current right to financial assistance! What would that mean in the UK, where citizens often live far from their families and from any possible support they might be able to provide? How many homeless and 'rough sleepers' would we be prepared to tolerate, lying prone on our streets and, perhaps, dying of hypothermia or starvation?

Regarding the NHS, i'd also support a 'Contributions' based system - but, again, with some kind of 'catch-all' for EU residents, akin to that which we Brits. are able to access, here in Spain. But, one of my concerns is to know what would happen if a newly arrived immigrant were to arrive from outside the EU, with a highly infectious and serious illness? How could we avoid future epidemics if such a person were to be refused treatment, or if future UK immunisation programmes were not to include all residents and their children?

The British Government is grappling, currently, with these issues - in advance of the anticipated 'influx' from Rumania and Bulgaria. I do hope that whatever is determined by our politicians, any new policies will be proportionate, rooted in fairness and will not lead to inhumane and degrading treatment of fellow human beings - but, I daren't hold my breath...!

Saludos,
GC

 

Contrary to popular belief, the main beneficiaries from freedom of movement aren't people looking for state benefits, but the employers. The EU is about making things easier for business.

Migrants especially from Eastern Europe will happily work long hours for low wages on short-term contracts so they are easy to get rid of. The agricultural and horticultural sectors would collapse without them. Businesses will strongly resist any move to make it harder for workers to move freely to where the demand is.

Spain is in a different position because local unemployment is so high, there is no need to rely on migrant labour to pick olives and oranges any more.

 

Hi - today, I listened to one of my many BBC Radio podcasts downloaded from 'The Food Programme' series. It was entitled ' The Great British Hop' and included an interview with one of the very few remaining 'Hop' farmers in the UK. He explained why it is that his seasonal workers are all Polish students, despite his advertising, each year, within his local area, for staff. Needless to say, this farmer expressed his great satisfaction with his foreign workforce..!

Yesterday, I heard a BBC News Analysis prog. (another podcast..), in which a group of Rumanian doctors and medical students were interviewed. Incredibly, some 80% of them plan to apply to work within other EU countries, come January, next year - and most will be heading for the UK! Their current salary level, once qualified, at home is the equivalent of £700 p.a. compared with £60,000 in the UK.

They were complaining, also, about high levels of corruption within their own Healthcare system, which they were desperate to escape! On hearing all of this, I could sympathise, entirely, with their wishing to take advantage of the EU's 'free movement' legislation, but their emigration would, surely, devastate the Rumanian Health Services?

In addition, there are always more British students (with high 'A' level grades) hoping to study Medicine than there are Uni.places available - so, what will the future prospects be, for such students, when the NHS is inundated with applications from fully- qualified Rumanian doctors, many aready experienced in their chosen specialisms?

Saludos,
GC

 

Well, the British government have known of the likely influx from Romania and Bulgaria for years. So what have they done to prepare for it? Set up a reception agency to direct them to where the work is? Invested money in more housing, schools and health centres in those mainly rural areas where most of them will end up, so the locals aren't forced into further resentment?

I suspect not ... far easier to say "there's nothing we can do".

 

Yes, the 'Guardian' poll results demonstrate, clearly,

The Gruniad poll results demonstrate b*gger all. the whole thing is, as usual, slewed to give the "results" that justify the article they wanted written and have little real connection with the truth. There is no indication of the size of the sample, nor political affiliations, not any of the other criteria that would bias those answering the survey and there is no indication as to how many people, who they were or any other criteria, were involved. Ask 20 people outside the jobcentre on a Monday morning and you'll get a totally different set of answers from asking 20 people in Harrods. Surveys are 100% suspect unless carried out by unbiased independent bodies, using unbiased questions and assessed by unbiased independent invigilators.

 

Hi - re. my earlier post in which I quoted a BBC Podcast (BBC R4; 'World At One.' Nov.18th,2013);
I've realised I have to make a correction and apologise to readers of this thread!

The doctors and medical students who, on being interviewed for this programme, claimed to be intent on leaving their country, with the aim of relocating to the UK, were Bulgarian - NOT Rumanian, as I'd posted. The intentions of Rumanian doctors were not addressed in this 'World At One' prog.

So, sorry, everyone, for misinforming you! If I could locate the appropriate smiley (red face/embarrassment), I'd post it right here...!

Saludos,
GC

 

I don't think it really matters whether they are Romanian, Bulgarian, Polish, Slovakian...they are all EU economic migrants from poor countries who want a better standard of living and know they can attain it in the UK, Germany, Denmark and other wealthy EU states.

I've either lived in or spent long periods of time in Eastern and Central European countries, both before and after socialism. Forty years of inept central control of the economies left these countries as basket-cases. Wages are low,social services poor by 'capitalist'standards, the general quality of goods and services including foodstuffs is dire. Every single item we bought in the Czech Republic from table lamps to garden furniture to shoes to clothing has broken or fallen to bits.
You have to have spent time living in these countries not just visiting as a tourist to know how drab and difficult life is compared to western Europe, even in times of crisis.

If we were Slovaks, Bulgarians or Romanians we too might be looking at budget flights and packing our cases. I certainly would be.

 

From Bulgarians and Romanians to beers......

 

That's the EU for you.

 

... por los cerros de Úbeda...

 

By the way, 'irse por los cerros de Úbeda...' means 'go off on a tangent...'

not sure of the right translation, but you know what I mean...

 

Baldilocks would have heard it before as he lives right there... en los cerros de Úbeda

 

but Baeza intervenes and, personally, I find Baeza nicer than Úbeda from a visitor's point of view although Úbeda has better shopping facilities. That's without taking into account the Sierra Mágina and Sierra Pandera plus lots of other lesser mountains all of which deflect the vibes, not to mention the fact that we are in the Sierra Sur de Jaén

 

OK back on track. Just saw this on Facebook, with the comment "Bloody Brits, going abroad, taking their jobs ..." Even if half of the Brits in Spain aren't in the labour market, it is still food for thought.

 

I have always advocated British jobs in the UK for Brits, Spanish, German, Italian whatever jobs for Spaniards etc.

Charity begins at home may be a stale cliche..but it's a true one.

 

Hi - I was browsing 'The Guardian' (cue 'boos' from some, here, but it's like water off a duck's back to me, LOL...), when I came across this article, which I'd not read, previously, although it was published in October. It's relevant, I think, to this discussion - and, BTW, includes a reference to 'expat. Brits.' based in Spain but paying for healthcare in UK as a result of Spanish Govt. changes to legislation here...!

Medical tourism generates millions for NHS and wider economy, finds study | Society | The Guardian

Saludos,
GC

 

They would make much more if they stopped consultants manipulating waiting lists to encourage patients to see them privately and made the greedy b*ggers pay for the NHS facilities they use.

 

Access to eu benefits

Hi - I've been browsing the Beeb's News website (have no TV at home) and have just read more about the British Govt's Minister Teresa May's plan to persuade the EU to change its rules, re. 'the right of free movement' within this continent.

I was interested in this linked article - relevant to our discussion on this thread. It considers the rights of EU citizens re. Healthcare and financial benefits, when relocating, within the EU:

BBC News - Q&A: What benefits can EU migrants get?

Saludos,
GC