[John and Cecil]

Thank you for the description of how the walls were made, I don't think I will be cutting into any of them if I can help it I understand you have to work with what you have. This is a very different building design concept than I am accustomed to. It is nice that they are not built with any toxic chemicals though.

Out of your description the thing that sits with me the worst is the wood (sub)floor (on the lower floor, not between floors). Are there wood joists under the floor boards?If it was possible I think I would prefer to replace the wood subfloor with cement and then apply ceramic tile or a 6 mil plastic sheet vapor barrier with lock-and-fold laminate or engineered wood flooring.

The walls are a different story. In my younger years I used to renovate old aluminum boats as a hobby and what I used under the floor was closed cell insulation (i.e pool noodles). There is a similar practice using this in the USA on very old 100-200 year old homes with damp stone and mortar basements. I think the practice involves spraying a couple inches of closed cell foam directly onto the stone walls and then they frame new walls using stud material that cannot rot (like metal). Then you can put more closed cell insulation into the stud voids and finally apply bathroom grade mold proof sheets of drywall to the studs. Perhaps someone has done something similar to the old homes in Portugal.

The attic above the ceiling sounds somewhat similar to many homes in the US. My home in California had an attic above the second floor. My attic was vented and it had fans with thermostats that would expel the air from the attic when it reached a certain temperature which was very efficient. I also had a thick insulation blanket above the ceiling on the floor of the attic to insulate the home from the attic.

It is not just the moisture but the insulation that is of concern. Without good insulation the home will forever be using more resources to maintain a certain level of comfort.

 

[Strontium]

Nominally the ground floor is used for animal and/or storage and kitchen so often has earthen floor or stone flags. The exterior walls are the only load bearing part so the upstairs floor is made of beams go over the shortest span and floor boards on top - this lets the wood breathe above and below. Internal walls upstairs are often heavy wood (ie slices of a tree trunk) with plaster layer, rooms for sleeping tend to be small. So long as there is ventilation for the walls and floors the structure is ok, the roof space can be insulated by first removing the wood ceilings and roof tiles then boarding/sealing (breathable roofing felt) to replace the original tiles on top , breathable insulation is then added internally f then the T&G clad. This opens up the roof space and also insulated the roof, ceiling tend to be low as do door ways. For old houses as the regulation for original appearance ( not for the material) only cover the front façade then roof lights, block walls with big windows, folding glass doors, solar panels, heli pads, swimming pools, brewery's, can be installed via side and back walls and the rear part of the roof without any issue. Sympathetic building renovation where the front of rendered original stone (giving a feature wall internally) is insulated and has rendered block walls grafted on in place of the stone orgionals etc mean an old derelict house with habitation can be "rebuilt" for modern living. There are many other variations of this renovation technique with things like ring beams cast in situ to stabilize the stone walls and raise the roof height then block and beam roofs.

 

[HelenN]

My lawyer seems to think we shouldn't have a problem building on the land due to the size. I've been looking around and this seems to bear that out (although a little old):
https://www.casteloconstruction.info/2014/08/08/questions-building-permission-planning-processes/

Does anyone know anything about it?

 

[baldilocks]

Frequently you will find that the flooring of the upper floor is not fitted that tightly together thus allowing the heat from the animals below to warm the upper (human) habitation. Often the roof is made with canha (caña) or bamboo with lime mortar on top and then tiles on top of that. The rafters are often made from poplar trees this is why you will find stands of poplars and bamboo.

 

[John and Cecil]

My lawyer seems to think we shouldn't have a problem building on the land due to the size. I've been looking around and this seems to bear that out (although a little old):
https://www.casteloconstruction.info/2014/08/08/questions-building-permission-planning-processes/

Does anyone know anything about it?

No one is answering yet so I will try to help until someone with more experience comes along. Perhaps any errors on my part can be corrected by someone with experience in Portugal.

The first issue is that this is a process that apparently has been given to the local municipalities to administer, and the author of your link seemed to mention that as well. Local municipalities can make their own regulations to fit the conditions they experience in their own areas. An example would be in Northern NJ there is a township that is unhappy about losing farmland to large housing developments and thus they require that you have at least 5 acres of land if you wish to build a house. If you have less it might still be possible but you would have to apply for a "variance" and then submit plans and/or studies to show how your situation would be ok but the decision is up to them. However in the next township over you would be allowed to build on a lot that is 1/20th of that size.

There are also many other factors for permitting a new building to be constructed, another big one in the US is wetlands. Many areas there have adopted regulations protecting wetlands which often just consists of certain plants growing in low lying areas. I have seen huge lots that were not permitted to build due to the proximity of wetlands as you are not allowed to build near them (all structures must be at least 50' away) or even impact them with water runoff from new impervious surfaces such as walkways or driveways.

Some places have very strict regulations, others are much more lax. I have seen a number of housing permits in rural areas denied over a perc test (when water is not absorbed fast enough by the ground, often due to slabs of bedrock). These homes were not allowed to be built because the area did not have municipal sewers and there was no safe way to install a septic field on land that will not perc (raw sewage will seep upwards to the ground surface - YUCK!). Some home permits have been denied because they obstructed a neighbor's view, etc. The list is never ending, there can be many regulations that are adopted or not adopted by individual municipalities in regards to building permits.

I am sorry for the length of this response but I want you to understand the underlying elements that impact your question. I believe that your question can most likely only be answered by the actual municipality or by a professional that works there (a local surveyor or architect would likely be more qualified to answer rather than a lawyer, but it depends on the lawyer's field of practice too).

In the US I would go to the town hall and see if they have an engineering, building, or planning dept. I would then look for my property on their town map and determine what zone it was in (commercial, residential, rural, urban, etc as each zone has different uses and regulations). I would then request a copy of the zoning ordinances and new building/construction requirements for my particular area. Sometimes they have a town surveyor or engineer that can answer your questions and if you show him/her a drawing or old survey of the land along with what you wish to do then they may be able to advise you of what would be required. When it comes down to it the municipality is the entity that will either approve or deny your project so they would be the ones I would approach first to ask my questions.

Again I have no experience in Portugal so hopefully someone with local experience can correct me if I have made any incorrect assumptions, however in the US one of my responsibilities was drafting plans for submission to municipal planning boards for obtaining building permit approvals.

 

[HelenN]

Thanks for the reply. I’m having a hard time getting a straight answer so I think contacting the Camara is the only way to go. Unfortunately we aren’t there in person which would have made it easier.

 

[John and Cecil]

Thanks for the reply. I’m having a hard time getting a straight answer so I think contacting the Camara is the only way to go. Unfortunately we aren’t there in person which would have made it easier.

This is why I have been looking for a residence that will not require an addition, it is very difficult to know what must be done to get permission to build and what problems might arise during the construction process. Utilizing an existing dwelling already permitted to be inhabited means you can work with what is already there. Home renovations, especially non-structural ones, are much easier to estimate and envision.

If you are looking to build in a rural area the problems you may come across would be different from those you might come across in an urban environment. I assume the area is rural from what I have read so far. My concerns would be sewer and water. Electric is usually not a big deal if there are power poles nearby or if the property already has electricity. Gas is easy, they just deliver tanks of propane there I believe. However digging wells (if no municipal water lines exist which are often rare in rural areas) may have newer regulations, etc. So if there is a well on the property it may not be in a location that meets the new building code so it may not be allowed to be used for habitation purposes once you decide to make an addition. In the US wells must be located a certain distance away from septic sewer fields, etc.

And that brings me to the sewer which is a big concern for me, however I do not know what types of rural sewers are allowed in Portugal. Municipal sewers are easy, you just need to connect your pipe to their pipe and that is it, however they are often not found in rural areas. The property must have some sort of sanitary sewer system but it might be 100 years old and the new code might require something else to be installed. I do not believe they had pvc pipe septic sewer leach fields 100 years ago. In the US this is usually what they require when building in rural areas, and then the well must be at least 100' or more away from the septic field. In the US installing a new sewer leach field requires design and computations from an engineer and to be sized according to how many bedrooms it is servicing, as well as soil testing, excavation, etc. It is like a gigantic underground sprinkler system but for human waste and costs can run quite high (these can easily cost 10-20k in the US for a larger home).

There could also be environmental impact concerns in a rural setting, however if the area is mostly dry and there is little to no wildlife this may not be of any concern. But if some endangered or nearly endangered species is living on the land then their right to exist there may exceed your rights to build if it will impact them. This could just be a species of insect. Again not sure about Portugal.

However in a rural area lots are often much bigger and thus there are less concerns about setbacks (areas too close to roadways and property lines where you are not permitted to build structures), neighbors petitioning the town to not allow the permit, etc.

This is why I suggest contacting the town and trying to get the documents from the town relating to building permits, zoning ordinances, etc. Perhaps a local land surveyor can give you a little free advice too, especially if you purchase the property and then require his/her services in the future. I know in the US one of the responsibilities of a professional land surveyor is to educate the public on such matters. If you had contacted our office we would have given you the names of the specific documents to obtain from the town and then after you read through them you could call us back and we would have tried to answer your questions over the phone.

Hopefully someone else with experience in Portugal can help.

 

[Strontium]

Just a quick note. Habitation which either has previously been connected to electricity or water or has a supply nearby can be connected-reconnected by contacting the water/elec people, Make sure the distribution box and pipework to a stopcock are ok which is usually a 10 minute job from a registered builder. Most non-sewer rural places have a fosse (septic tank) which is related in volume to the water useage and (loads of stuff on here about fosse) also the local authority will empty the fosse if you need it done. The fosse should "process" the waste so the liquis outflow to into a drainage bed is non-toxic. So no nasty things like chlorine bleach of tyour fosse stops doing its job. Wells were often previously drilled or dug for water and the quality need testing if you want to drink it, quality can also change as you extract water, older habitation will often have a well in the garden and if you have a plot to grow stuff then a well can usually be drilled and Rustic electricity installed (to occasionally run a pump). In some areas there is mains gas but not an extensive network, bottles gas is usual for hot water, cooking and sometime central heating, several design/colour of bottles from different companies but generally an adapter will fit, gas bottles available in many many places and different size bottles. On line search for the cost per kq and the type of gas (propane or butane) as the burners can differ.

 

[John and Cecil]

Thank you, the info on being able to use the existing sewer system is very helpful. I for one would like to use a multi stage reverse osmosis filtering system connected to a well or municipal water supply for my drinking water. There is a big problem in the US now with pharmaceutical tainted public water supplies that most filtration processes do not protect against, however reverse osmosis supposedly works very well in this regard.

 

[Strontium]

Reverse osmosis usually uses a large amount of electricity to pump the pressure needed - the most expensive rice I know of was grown in the middle of Saudi desert using water from reverse osmosis. Here the vast dammed lakes and sparse population tend to mean the mains water is clean and as people use wells/boreholes there is easy access to water quality analysis.

Re: building permission - my opinion
Portugal rejoices/suffers* (delete as appropriate) in variable opinions in the place of decisions. If you ask two places/offices/people/lawyers the same question you usually get two different answers. If you ask "can I build on this land" you'll need to define exactly what you mean and need to address it to the person who makes that decision and have it all in simple but concise writing including the answer. People who spend time here - ie the local Portuguese - know what has happened locally in the past and what they can do without any official intervention. This is a person to person place and confronting people with some legal argument based on "research" which is actually a search engine's preference listing will not get you any friends. Talking to the local goat man in foreign as his goats eat your front lawn (as they have done since they were kids) and insisting he has a small very cold beer whilst ignoring the rank smell of someone whose annual spending is less then the cost of your shoes will get you information about what you can do acceptably and locally. You do need to spend time here and experience as much as possible before making a decision to live here or not. "Research" on the internet about a place which is not "internetted" but is on a person scale will only get you very biased internet answers.

 

[John and Cecil]

Thank you Strontium. It must be nice being that man with the goats, aside from the hygiene issues. To be innocent with everything that is happening in the world now, that is priceless. I am more worried about people like him accepting me than about me accepting him and his way of life.

 

[HelenN]

We're going ahead with the purchase. So, if we have any issues down the line I'll let you know of our experiences.

 

[John and Cecil]

We're going ahead with the purchase. So, if we have any issues down the line I'll let you know of our experiences.

Congratulations, you must be very excited! Hopefully your closing will go smoothly. Good luck.

 

[HelenN]

Thank you. Still very stressed about it but I guess we'll see!

 

[Strontium]

Good luck - if not already done get copies of "land registry" entries (the updated ones if available) of the articles and the Promissory as these should show exactly what you are agreeing to purchase and for how much.

 

[John and Cecil]

Thank you. Still very stressed about it but I guess we'll see!

I understand Helen. Buying and selling a home is an emotional rollercoaster. But knowing and understanding this is half the battle. Try to remember this, and when something positive happens hold back your emotions and prepare yourself for something negative. And when something negative happens prepare yourself for something positive. Try to take the edge off the highs and the lows and "smooth" your emotions during the process. Faith helps too so have faith that whatever happens it will end up being for the best, for even the wisest people cannot see all ends.

Some realtors like to put you on the rollercoaster too. Realtors will try to make you emotional so that you will make mistakes. Most are not professionals in the sense that they wish to educate the public, they often just want money. My friend is looking to buy a house now too, my advice to her was to always take 24 hours to respond. Always sleep on it, let your subconscious mind toss it around for a while and let your emotions settle down before answering. When dealing with real estate agents try to show them a person that is calm and in control.

A knowledge of some vocabulary of certain industry words helps too. I read about a study once about auto mechanics in the US. If a person asked about a repair and used the correct professional terms to describe it they often received a lower estimate. By talking their "auto-mechanic language" they assume that you either know what you are doing or that you already have estimates.

But for me my best negotiating chip is principle. They cannot get anywhere with me because I will walk away rather than be taken advantage of, within the rules of the contract of course. My last home sold for 800k, and I was willing to walk away over $200. First it was $2000, then $1000, then $200 or they were leaving. I called their bluff and they bought the house. They tried to put me on the rollercoaster but it backfired on them.

Hopefully I will find more principle and less greed in Portuguese real estate transactions, but I will be ready for either. I will buy a house, or I will teach someone a lesson, but either way I will see it as a positive.

 

[LukeJones]

Hello,
I'd like to ask you all a question, please.
If you buy a rustic property with a very old house which has never been registered, when you ask the camera/junta to look at it for having it registered as a pre1951 habitable house, what things will the representative of the camera look for to identify if the building is a habitational house built before 1951?

 

[Strontium]

Hello,
I'd like to ask you all a question, please.
If you buy a rustic property with a very old house which has never been registered, when you ask the camera/junta to look at it for having it registered as a pre1951 habitable house, what things will the representative of the camera look for to identify if the building is a habitational house built before 1951?

Though things here are flexibly administered generally, as found in the "land registry listing", it is taken as rustic article = rustic land whereas habitation article = property/house. A building on a rustic article will be taken to be some type of agricultural building, A house with garden will be one article of habitation (the house) and a separate and different article of rustic (the garden) so any building on rustic is an agricultural building and not for habitation even if people may have lived in it previously. There is flexibility for things like staying there for harvesting crops etc. Local council is unlikely to reclassify rustic as habitation unless it's in an area zoned development/reclassification but then it will need to done as as a building project (planning permission) to the latest building standards.

 

[LukeJones]

So a certificate of isenção de licença for being pre1951 is of no advantage if the land is "rustic" and the house doesn't have an "article".

 

[Strontium]

Get a copy of the "land registry" listing, you may find it is not to to date,if the case then sometime it should be updated and include any changes in classification if applicable, the vendor is responsible for having this up to date for a sale but may wait till a sale is likely. Whichever local agent is dealing with the sale should also be able to supply the existing listing(s) If everyone is unsure of the actual article number(s) go see the council (if covid allows) which administers the area and enquire as they should have the latest distributions which are on their local map.