Basically, BNP and all the other banks that have branches or otherwise do business in the US have to ask for this information (and yes, it's based on your US birthplace).

There's no doubt that this FATCA stuff is a royal PITA - as much for the banks as for you and the other "US persons" located outside the US. However, if you read through the bilateral agreement on how this thing is supposed to work, it may be just as simple to fill out the form (i.e. give them your US SS number - which is really what they're interested in) and just be sure you declare any interest earned on your French accounts on your US tax forms.

In point of fact, the bank doesn't have to report anything on accounts already open at July 1st of 2014. It looks like (from the agreement) that it's only new accounts after that date that are subject to reporting. And even at that, the French banks report to the Banque de France, which is the agency that will deal with doling out information to the IRS.

You could contact the bank yourself and ask them what happens if you don't fill out the form. I'm a little surprised the ING would tell someone to just ignore it - but honestly "little guys" with dead normal bank accounts under $200,000 (which is the actual FATCA reporting threshold for individuals) aren't what the IRS is looking for.

See what your bank conseiller tells you when you ask, and then decide how you want to proceed from there.
Cheers,
Bev

 

I understood also that the agreement applies to new accounts as of July 1, 2014. I have had this account for many years and it's only a checking acct. with no interest. I would talk to my conseiller but I'm in the process of changing him since he is incompetent and quite sexist.

As for ING, they told her that the bank will send all info to the Bank of France regardless if they have the W9 form or not, so don't do anything about it.

I know the easiest thing to do is fill out the form, but I am just fed up with all the problems and headaches the US is causing us people who chose to live outside the US and I guess by me not filling out this form is a little bit of rebellion for me.

 

I suppose what the IRS is "really" after are the US SSNs to run against the tax filings so they can check to see if you declared your French bank interest. But given that there is no interest on a French checking account, it isn't really much of a much whether you do or don't return the form. You don't have a FATCA reporting obligation and you're not hiding any taxable income. So sure, go for a little "civil disobedience."

I've got my money in one of the Banque Populaires, which seems to fall under the exception to the reporting rule - in that they don't do business outside of France and so are exempt from reporting at all. Asked them to take my US nationality off their records after I got my French nationality - more as a joke, or to just see what they'd say - and the conseiller was only too happy to do so. (Unfortunately, that guy has moved on and his replacement was a tad more anal. But I think she is gone now, because I have yet another name appearing on my statements as my conseiller. Ah, easy come, easy go.)
Cheers,
Bev

 

BP requires W-9 file


Hi,
I'm sorry to inform you that the Banque Populaire is also participating in the hunting of "American persons. " The Banque Populiare issued me a W-9 to fill out within 90 days (or else whet???) when I attempted to open a Casden savings account (worth less than 100€!) their in September. The deadline is approaching, and I am hesitant about what to do. I have accounts at the Credit Agricole and have heard nothing from them.
Having lived in France since I was 20 and thus never having worked in the US, I have never ever filed income taxes with the IRS, since I file here in France (seems logical, right?) My main concern is that by filing the W-9 form, the IRS will come after me for late penalties for never having declared my income or assets (my income and assets are sadly way under the threshold to pay any taxes)
Does anyone know if this is the case? If I don't hand in the file, will the IRS be alerted anyway, since the form was issued?
Thanks!

 

Thanks a lot Bev. I also thank you for telling me about Banque Populaires. I thought I had read something to that effect about banks that do not do business outside France, but couldn't for the life of me find the info. I probably should open an account with them as they are right across the street from me.

I have been thinking of closing BNP for a while now, but it is a joint account and I pay my social charges out of it. I thought if anything happened to me, my husband would be able to have instant access to that account to pay the charges, but now I'm thinking close it close it. I do have another business account but my husband is only signatory on that one. Plus, if I closed BNP, I would have two less FBAR accounts to declare in 2016.

I have printed out the relevant paragraphs to bring with me when I go to BNP and ask them why they are asking for that info, when I get the courage to go there. I will keep you posted about what happened. Thanks again.

 

I was told by my bank that it is a new law, requiring all foreign banks to report new accounts as they are opened. I had to do it just to open the account. However, another American expat also told me an important fact. Due to this law all American citizens must report ALL foreign bank accounts to the IRS annually. Failure to do this will cost you $10,000 a year in fines from the IRS.

 

We've just started the first period of serious "enforcement" of this law (called FATCA) so it's tough to say exactly what the IRS will or won't do - and frankly, American citizens are supposed to report all foreign accounts if their total foreign accounts are $10,000 or more and this law (FBAR) has been around for a LONG time. No one with "smaller" balances (say, under $1 million or so) has been hit up for the penalties on that one, unless there is something "funny" about their regular tax filings.

But, there's no telling how this will roll out going forward.

Do take a peek at the Expat Tax section here on Expatforum for possibly much more information about FATCA and FBAR than you might ever possibly want to know. hwell:
Cheers,
Bev

 

I received a letter too and have to reply before December 15.
They say they have to report on accounts above a certain threshold.
This is a joint account and we had above the equivalent of 10000$ for a brief amount of time.
Is BNP reporting all accounts regardless of their balance ?

 

You'd have to ask BNP what their plans are regarding what balances they do or don't report. But the law is that all US "persons" (i.e. citizens and permanent residents) must report all foreign accounts (via the FBAR) if the sum total of all such accounts exceeds $10,000 at any time during a given year.

If your combined foreign accounts totaled $10,000 at any time during 2014, you report them all for 2014 (by the end of June, 2015). If the total never gets back above $10,000 again, then you're off the hook for further reporting.

The bank, however, has to meet its own reporting requirements. They may or may not report all accounts held by US persons, but they need to have the information just in case your account balances increase in the future.
Cheers,
Bev

 

As a Brit I'm not entering into the FATCAT or FOOBAR debate that US people have.

However, I've found that in dealing with forms from "officialdom" I've always found that giving prompt but minimum responses usually keeps things quiet.

Remember that there is some poor clerk in the bank charges with getting this information from US customers. All they want is to get 100% responses, signed, dated etc. They don't care about the figures. Later someone more important will sift through the mountain of forms looking for "interesting" people. If you are normal then you will probably not attract attention.

DejW

 

That's FUBAR (at least if you want the acronym to work out correctly). :eyebrows:

But actually, if you file a French tax declaration, you're supposed to check the box on the last page and submit a list of ALL your foreign bank accounts (and foreign "assurance vie" accounts) with no consideration for the balances involved.

Folks are getting their knickers all in a twist over this, but the FBAR requirement has been around for ages now. (At least the last 20 years.) The French only started asking for bank accounts about 10 or so years ago. It's all part and parcel of the same thing. What the banks have to report is their problem. But if you decline to provide the W9 or whatever information they have asked for, they are within their rights to refuse to have you as a customer. Haven't heard of any banks here in France doing so, but they're doing precisely that in Switzerland, Germany and Austria on certain types of accounts.
Cheers,
Bev

 

Today, with bittersweet feelings, I sent a registered letter to BNP closing my one account but kept the smaller one open as a backup account. I will try and go into BNP next week and ask exactly what they are reporting and what happens if they do not receive SS numbers. Will keep you posted.

 

Dear All.

Does anybody know at which threshold they report accounts at BNP ? Or are they blanket covering everybody, wouldn't be surprised with what happened to them by the DOJ and they are being overzealous.
Is is 10000, 50000 ?
I am abroad right now and this is a huge burden for me.
I'm having a joint account with a French national.
The 10000 mark was passed for a few days in 2014, should I be concerned ?

This is not even my money, all this hassle they are imposing is ridiculous.

Thanks.

 

The BNP actually reports nothing directly to the IRS. They do report just about everything to the Banque de France, though. (Well, my bank - not the BNP - does, anyhow.)

What the Banque de France does or doesn't report to the IRS is anyone's guess.

Reporting your jointly held accounts and/or foreign accounts is pretty easy, though. Just do it (as the ad says). You have to report your foreign accounts on your French tax return, too - though not the balances. Same principle.

The FBAR reporting has been in place for AGES. It's the FATCA stuff that gets onerous for relatively simple investment accounts. But on the FATCA stuff, those of us living overseas get a more generous threshold ($200,000 for an individual not filing jointly with a spouse). Use it.
Cheers,
Bev

 

I've been waiting for the bank manager to get in touch with me, but no such luck, so I won't be able to find out what BNP is or is not reporting. If she doesn't get in touch next week I will assume this is a moot point.

 

I suspect you will not hear anything from the bank manager on this. From the branch bank point of view, I'm betting that the only "new" reporting they will do is sending their list of "American persons" with their W9 data to the head office, which will then forward the whole mess to the Banque de France.

You really should not place any faith at all in whether or not your bank is reporting all accounts over $10,000 or $50,000 - when in fact they are just reporting all accounts and their balances and letting the Banque de France handle the IRS.
Cheers,
Bev

 

It appears that it is the french revenue (FISC) that will be transmitting the data.

impots.gouv.fr/portal/deploiement/p1/fichedescriptive_7015/fichedescriptive_7015.pdf

 

Oh, thanks for that reference. I'm not keen to read through all 78 pages just now, but it should be interesting to see just what and how they are planning to report. (I happen to bank with a bank that is specifically exempted from the requirements and have yet to hear anything from them.)

Allegedly, however, the US is supposed to report all bank accounts held by French nationals to the fisc and I wonder how that's going to play out.
Cheers,
Bev

 

IMHP this is surely not worth getting hot under the collar about (unless you are seeking to avoid taxes or are money laundering).

 

Definitely right about that - however there is quite a bit of hoopla over this FATCA stuff in some places. Some of the more "rule bound" regions of the world are finding that, rather than having to manage the reporting requirements, the banks are simply disallowing "US persons" (i.e. citizens and Green Card holders) from opening accounts at all. (OK, it does solve the problem - at least the bank's problem.) And a few places, some Americans have found local banks closing out their accounts - apparently just to avoid the reporting.

The other big complication is that the US is pretty vague about some types of retirement-related investment accounts and how they should/must be reported and/or taxed on the US forms for US citizens living overseas. It's a complicated system, and unfortunately, both the IRS and many unscrupulous (and expensive) tax preparers tend to use fear as their preferred means of promoting compliance.
Cheers,
Bev

 

Well, since I asked to see the bank manager instead of my conseilleur because he made a very sexist remark to me, she told him to close our other joint account. My husband is French and I'm not very happy about this. Anyone know if there is a regulatory banking agency I can complain to. I guess even if I would have written a letter to the bank manager complaining about the sexist remark made to me, it wouldn't have mattered in the least.

 

Complain to the Banque de France. Not sure if it will do any good, though. (Sexist remarks tend to vary by culture and the French aren't terribly sensitive to some things that set Americans off.)

You're probably better off banking somewhere else anyhow - the bank manager can make a huge difference and it's worth it to find someone you can work with.
Cheers,
Bev

 

Thanks Bev, even if I did complain to the Banque de France, the men there would just laugh it off, as I found out when the French tax authorities changed my name a long time ago when I got married and I had a very hard time getting the name changed back to my name. The sexist remarks I got from the man handling that were astonishing. Eventually I did get my name back.

 

You never lost your name, in France women officially keep their maiden name. You obviously don't have a good relationship with the bank, so it's worth moving your business, but you perhaps should think about why the relationship is (apparently) so fraught - eg. are you perhaps inadvertently contributing because of cultural differences or are you appearing to blame BNP for US reporting requirements?

Frankly, I don't understand why you're not happy about your husband being French (that's a joke, but my intent is just to highlight that communication can be difficult and you can unintentionally convey a totally different message to the one you think you are sending).

 

That what was I first read the sentence to mean as well

 

Just so you know you're not the Lone Ranger, I just spent a good half an hour on the phone with another American (married to a French guy) who got a call from her bank (also BNP) about the W-9 form. Of course the banker didn't explain what the form was, and she was all panicked because she hasn't been filing tax returns all this time.

It's interesting that it's only BNP that I've been hearing about lately with this. My bank hasn't said a word - though I did have them change my nationality after I "went French" just to see how they'd react. They do still have my US birthplace on file, though, but they're not one of the banks that is required to report this stuff anyhow. BNP has a "history" with the Americans - just recently had to pay a whopping big fine for some transgression or another.

This whole FUBAR and FATCAT thing is getting kind of interesting....:juggle:
Cheers,
Bev

 

Funny EverHopeful, that remark about my husband being French didn't come out right, lol. I meant that how can they close our joint account being that he is French, etc. I better proofread better, lol.

My account was not closed due to the W9 form, or so they say (I have till December 15 to send it in), but because my conseilleur thought, with good reason, that I didn't want to have him as my conseilleur anymore because he made a huge error concerning our account.

Here is a copy of his "professional" email to me. Strange, for clients to close an account they have to send a registered letter, but I guess BNP can close an account by email. It's getting to be quite comical.


Suite à votre passage à l'accueil de notre agence, vous aviez demandé de ne pas avoir à faire à moi......

Ma Directrice m'a demandé de clôturer votre compte.

Veuillez nous envoyer le Relevé d'Identité Bancaire de votre NOUVEL ETABLISSEMENT BANCAIRE (!!!!)

pourque je puisse vous envoyer les fonds.


I wonder what would have happened if I had complained about him in the beginning, horrors.

And regarding the tax office about change of name, I know by law a woman keeps her maiden name upon marriage, I tried telling the tax man that and even showed him a copy of the law but that did not work. In the end, I finally talked to a woman in charge and she fixed everything.

 

Strange, for clients to close an account they have to send a registered letter, but I guess BNP can close an account by email. It's getting to be quite comical.

That is however the way it is - the bank (not just BNP) can close your account at its discretion without a registered letter. I agree that the requirement is lopsided, but frankly all banking is lopsided in favour of the bank.

 

Not to hijack this thread or anything, but I actually had not one, but two panicked phone calls from people today about "the form the bank says they have to fill out because they're Americans."

First call was from the friend of a friend, who was all freaked out (ok, largely because she hasn't been filing US tax returns). She kept mentioning BNP specifically and had not been able to sleep after researching on the Internet all the background to the FATCA/FBAR/filing situation for overseas Americans.

Then, after lunch, a friend called me about her daughter, who was born in the US, but moved back to France at the age of 1 or so. When she told me that "the bank" was asking for a form, I jokingly asked if it was BNP and sure enough it was. (Slight complication in that said daughter works for BNP as well as having her accounts there - so was worried about losing her job if she refuses to give them the form.)

Just for the record, BNP was recently hit with a huge fine from the US (a few billion $$ as I recall) for some transgression of American financial law. It really does make sense that they might be particularly careful not to run afoul of the US authorities on this W-9 stuff.

As I told my friends, just fill out the form and give it back to them. They really do need it to cover their own posterior and avoid further problems with the American authorities. It's then up to you what you want to do about your own filing situation. If you've been filing, then fine, keep up the good work. If you haven't, then you have to decide if you want to go for something like the Streamlined Compliance procedure or not. U.S. Taxpayers Residing Outside the United States
Cheers,
Bev

 

Article from Le Monde about the record fine - as a consequence BNP recorded its first loss since 2008. It's hardly surprising that they are being ultra careful. Après son amende record, les résultats de la BNP chutent I would not be at all surprised if other French banks take a similar stance - better safe than sorry (very, very sorry in this case).

 

A good write-up on this whole sorry situation here.

On a related matter, when opening a new account at ANZ Bank in Australia earlier this year, the clerk gave me a sheet of paper to sign, providing ("at US Government request" as he put it) details of any US bank accounts I have. I declined to fill it in or sign it. I said "it's none of ANZ's business". He shrugged and opened the account for me.

 

I take it you are aware of the reason BNP was fined.

 

For not complying with the American boycott of Iran and/or other countries in financial dealings. Had nothing to do with individual transfers of funds within the banking system. Hey, at least they're holding up delivery of those helicopter carriers... (well, not BNP, but the French government).

Sorry, was at the local conseil municipal last night and am kind of hopped up on "politics" here.
Cheers,
Bev