1) Is it legal to get married as best friends?

It is perfectly legal to get married without performing any consumating acts; the nature of your relationship isn't really relevant unless the authorities suspect an immigration scam.

2) Can we even run a farm if we have disability benefits from our birth countries

No idea. Commercial farming or hobby farming?

Also, will the medications and doctors in Germany be comparable to what I get here? My dad tells me that the US is a world leader in mental health, but the internet has told me that Germany is actually moreso. (My dad is also ridiculously patriotic)

No idea. But it does raise the question of health insurance, which you would need in Germany, and which isn't necessarily cheap if you don't have it through employment. Further research required.

I'd like to bring two of my pets with me: a tiny papillon dog and a guinea pig. Is that reasonable?

Ask your local German consulate. The dog should be easy, not sure about the guinea pig.

A final thought I'd like to mention; Would I have to rid of my US citizenship to stay in Germany? I read that there's a loophole that if you don't earn enough, you don't have to. But I don't know how much I'd end up earning cuz of the farm idea.

Short answer: no. If you took German citizenship you would be required to give up US citizenship unless you were low income and could prove hardship due to the renunciation fee (US$2350). But taking German citizenship is a long process and it's by no means required, you could remain indefinitely as a permanent resident. The biggest reason to become German and get rid of US is of course to escape US tax filing obligations, and the fact that banks don't want US citizen customers due to FATCA and its reporting requirements.

I honestly feel like the idea to move to Germany is more a shared fantasy and life for my best friend and me. I don't know if it is realistic at all.

It sounds rather a fantasy, particularly the farm bit. However, you can go 90 days out of 180 as a tourist so there's not reason not to give it a few three-month trials to see how things work out. You can't work an official job while visiting, but of course you can do farm chores in exchange for room and board.

 

the nature of your relationship isn't really relevant unless the authorities suspect an immigration scam.

The bit where your relationship may be questioned is when you apply for your spouse residence permit. But if your relationship (and you define your relationship) is genuine and you want to make a life together I don't see why they would deny you on relationship grounds.

Have either of you ever bothered to actually read the AufenthG? The law specifically states that getting married to obtain a residence permit does NOT grant the foreign spouse the right to live in Germany.

The guy wants to marry a woman he has never met in order to obtain a German residence permit, that is pretty much the definition of a Scheinehe, which is explicitly not protected in Germany.

§ 27 Grundsatz des Familiennachzugs

(1) Die Aufenthaltserlaubnis zur Herstellung und Wahrung der familiären Lebensgemeinschaft im Bundesgebiet für ausländische Familienangehörige (Familiennachzug) wird zum Schutz von Ehe und Familie gemäß Artikel 6 des Grundgesetzes erteilt und verlängert.

(1a) Ein Familiennachzug wird nicht zugelassen, wenn

1. feststeht, dass die Ehe oder das Verwandtschaftsverhältnis ausschließlich zu dem Zweck geschlossen oder begründet wurde, dem Nachziehenden die Einreise in das und den Aufenthalt im Bundesgebiet zu ermöglichen, oder

Source: https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/aufenthg_2004/__27.html

 

In June 2017 my best friend, who was born and raised and still is in Germany, and I began talking about making a life together. We're not romantically involved, though we do call each other "dear" and send a lot of hearts back and forth.

We're both disabled, she physically and me mentally, and we have many of the same interests. We seem quite compatible, which makes Germany look like an excellent idea (she doesn't want to come here, and I've always wanted to move to Western Europe).

We began planning that we'll get married and run a farm with a little bit of everything.
1) Is it legal to get married as best friends?

People get married for all sorts of reasons. Getting married in Germany as a non-EEA national is not the most easy thing to do, you might want to consider alternative locations such as Denmark or the USA.

The bit where your relationship may be questioned is when you apply for your spouse residence permit. But if your relationship (and you define your relationship) is genuine and you want to make a life together I don't see why they would deny you on relationship grounds. You will either need to show German language skills or a university degree or may have to attend an integration course (660 hours of German language instruction and German culture).

2) Can we even run a farm if we have disability benefits from our birth countries?

Are your friend's benefits means tested? Can you receive your benefits while mo longer being a resident of the USA?

I know that if I earn too much money, my benefits will stop.

This sounds like your benefits are means tested. Will you be able to receive this outside of the USA? To be very honest, 'a little farm with a bit of everything' doesn't sound like you will make a lot of money. Many farmers can no longer live off their farms alone and need a daytime job. So I guess your farm would most probably cover your own fruit and veg needs, maybe milk and eggs? If your friend's benefits are means tested, then there might be a problem with owning property. You should ask your friend about that and whether their benefits are based on household income.

Also, will the medications and doctors in Germany be comparable to what I get here? My dad tells me that the US is a world leader in mental health, but the internet has told me that Germany is actually more-so. (My dad is also ridiculously patriotic)

Depending on where in Germany you are (your farm idea sounds rural), most of all, doctors and treatment will be (speaking in) German. Also, going into a new health system, treatments and policies can differ drastically from what one is used to. Doctors will probably also like to form their own opinion and getting treatment started may take a considerable amount of time.

What kinds of medication is prescribed is also governed by different rules. One can't usually get pain killers with opiates, for example. Unlike in the US, the circumstances would have to be pretty dire to get a prescription for that kind of habit-forming medication.

But I don't know how much I'd end up earning cuz of the farm idea.

Running the farm as a business rather than a self-sufficiency project would require you to register it as a business with all its ramifications for tax, reporting, health and safety, licensing, health insurance for self-employed people, etc.

Does your friend actually own a farm already?

 

People get married for all sorts of reasons. Getting married in Germany as a non-EEA national is not the most easy thing to do, you might want to consider alternative locations such as Denmark or the USA.

The bit where your relationship may be questioned is when you apply for your spouse residence permit. But if your relationship (and you define your relationship) is genuine and you want to make a life together I don't see why they would deny you on relationship grounds. You will either need to show German language skills or a university degree or may have to attend an integration course (660 hours of German language instruction and German culture).



Are your friend's benefits means tested? Can you receive your benefits while mo longer being a resident of the USA?




This sounds like your benefits are means tested. Will you be able to receive this outside of the USA? To be very honest, 'a little farm with a bit of everything' doesn't sound like you will make a lot of money. Many farmers can no longer live off their farms alone and need a daytime job. So I guess your farm would most probably cover your own fruit and veg needs, maybe milk and eggs? If your friend's benefits are means tested, then there might be a problem with owning property. You should ask your friend about that and whether their benefits are based on household income.



Depending on where in Germany you are (your farm idea sounds rural), most of all, doctors and treatment will be (speaking in) German. Also, going into a new health system, treatments and policies can differ drastically from what one is used to. Doctors will probably also like to form their own opinion and getting treatment started may take a considerable amount of time.

What kinds of medication is prescribed is also governed by different rules. One can't usually get pain killers with opiates, for example. Unlike in the US, the circumstances would have to be pretty dire to get a prescription for that kind of habit-forming medication.





Running the farm as a business rather than a self-sufficiency project would require you to register it as a business with all its ramifications for tax, reporting, health and safety, licensing, health insurance for self-employed people, etc.

Does your friend actually own a farm already?

Yeah I have read that it'd be easier to marry in Denmark than in Germany, but my best friend isn't sure of it because she couldn't bring her dog, and since her friend and father would be with us for the process, no one would be able to watch him (I don't think he's ever been in a public kennel either but I don't remember if she'd be willing to do that or not).

Yeah, if we do marry, we definitely plan on staying together.

I've read that I can keep my benefits even if I live in another country that the US can send my money and such to, and Germany falls into this category from my understanding.
Now, I know very little about my best friend's benefits, as she doesn't even totally understand what she has (her father manages it). I know that she receives it for being half-blind/half-deaf, but beyond that, I'm unsure.

With the farm, we mostly want to take care of ourselves. Maybe sell some for a little extra money, but we have so many plans I just don't know how it would add up.

My best friend lives in an apartment with her father right now. We've been looking at farms for sale and rent, and been seeking advice on how to best come to own one. Though, we don't know it will work.

Yeah, I'm a bit concerned about my mental health in regards to doctors and meds. I'm not afraid of learning the language, as I've already learned the basics and just need to learn more advanced stuff and practice. I'm quick at picking up languages in general.

Thank you so much for the thoughts provided and sorry I don't know all the details I probably need!

It is perfectly legal to get married without performing any consumating acts; the nature of your relationship isn't really relevant unless the authorities suspect an immigration scam.



No idea. Commercial farming or hobby farming?



No idea. But it does raise the question of health insurance, which you would need in Germany, and which isn't necessarily cheap if you don't have it through employment. Further research required.



Ask your local German consulate. The dog should be easy, not sure about the guinea pig.



Short answer: no. If you took German citizenship you would be required to give up US citizenship unless you were low income and could prove hardship due to the renunciation fee (US$2350). But taking German citizenship is a long process and it's by no means required, you could remain indefinitely as a permanent resident. The biggest reason to become German and get rid of US is of course to escape US tax filing obligations, and the fact that banks don't want US citizen customers due to FATCA and its reporting requirements.



It sounds rather a fantasy, particularly the farm bit. However, you can go 90 days out of 180 as a tourist so there's not reason not to give it a few three-month trials to see how things work out. You can't work an official job while visiting, but of course you can do farm chores in exchange for room and board.

Yeah I don't know if I'm reasonably worried about us being suspect for marrying without romance, or if that's just my paranoia, haha.

I think we'd fall under hobby farming. I think I mentioned it earlier in this post, we really just want to be self-sustaining.

Will definitely research more about insurance and such!

My best friend and I have discussed me just visiting for three months at a time. The biggest concern I have, is that I'm unsure if I can really afford the visits. I won't be getting much money, and while I think I can make the payment to go over there, I feel like coming back and later returning repeatedly might be costly....

But maybe there's more to it than I realize. I'm a very naive adult, I'll admit.

 

There's one other big factor in your plans, and that's the exchange rates. If you'll be dependent on benefits coming from the US, you'll always have the exchange rate to worry about. Right now the rate is pretty good and it's in our favor (i.e. those of us receiving $ based benefits in Europe). But that can change over time.

 

I didn't think about that! That's a good point!

She should ask her father about her benefits and if she can't give details, maybe you could just find out the category of benefits/the name?

Like Sozialhilfe, Grundsicherung, SGB XII, Erwerbsminderungsrente, Wohngeld, Blindengeld?

If her benefits are means tested, then your income (your US benefits) would be part of the household income after you get married and you move in with her. That would mean that her benefits would be recalculated and most if not all of your benefits would be deducted from what she receives.

In most cases, paying rent would be financially supported but not owning property. Somebody applying for state benefits would be expected to sell their property and use up the money made from that before benefits would be paid out, so acquiring a property could be a problem, unless the property is extremely modest and really not worth anything. Owning enough land for farming would probably not work then.

On a different note: have you met face to face, yet?

At least one longer visit would be a good idea before moving continents.

She had an optical test done today that could result in her receiving more money. But after she told me that, she went back to bed and our messenger isn't working right now, so I can't ask her about her benefits yet.

We've been talking since 2013, but we haven't actually met face to face. We skype, and use various messengers, even have each other's phone numbers since we both have iPhones. But, no, we haven't actually met yet.

I've been thinking about our benefits recently, and just considering how it works for couples in the US, it has gotten me worried about how it would work for us, especially since we both receive benefits from our respective countries. It doesn't help neither of us has any idea what we're dealing with for oursevles.

Hi, running a farm is very hard work for healthy and fit people, even as self-sufficient farmer.
So it might be easier if you be part of a community. In the eastern parts of Germany many young people organise it 's life in small farms, small villages because plots and houses are cheaper than in Western regions.

Just found a link for more information
https://www.transition-initiativen....n.org/sites/default/files/dateien/Transition_Management_Handbook_Version_09.pdf

local transition groups could be helpful for you, especially by Inclusion (disability rights).
For the beginning of your "restart" in Germany a partnership / membership at a farm project could be helpful to learn and to assimilate in German culture.
Here's a list of transition groups in Germany
https://www.transition-initiativen.org/liste-der-transition-initiativen

btw. in case of marriage ...same sex unions marriage are legal in Germany

That's very helpful information! I'll definitely share it with her and we'll have to go over it together.

Oh yes, we're aware about same-sex unions, but I'm more concerned about marrying without being romantic, if that makes sense.
Would it look weird if we marry as best friends and then get romantic with other people? We've discussed that. We'd both be fine with it, but I don't want to look like we're doing something shady.


Thanks for all the replies! I truly appreciate them! And I'm going to heed everyone's advice!

 

Hi, running a farm is very hard work for healthy and fit people, even as self-sufficient farmer.
So it might be easier if you be part of a community. In the eastern parts of Germany many young people organise it 's life in small farms, small villages because plots and houses are cheaper than in Western regions.

Just found a link for more information
https://www.transition-initiativen....n.org/sites/default/files/dateien/Transition_Management_Handbook_Version_09.pdf

local transition groups could be helpful for you, especially by Inclusion (disability rights).
For the beginning of your "restart" in Germany a partnership / membership at a farm project could be helpful to learn and to assimilate in German culture.
Here's a list of transition groups in Germany
https://www.transition-initiativen.org/liste-der-transition-initiativen

btw. in case of marriage ...same sex unions marriage are legal in Germany

 

I would think that a reconnaissance visit is the first priority.

 

Yes!

A visit may sound expensive but imagine how expensive it would be to make a move of that caliber and then find out after a few weeks that the Germans (or the French for that matter) are a grumpy bunch and it's hard to get to know them and things are horrid and you just want to go home.

 

Look, we're not here to "police" the laws of Germany or any other country. OTOH, Sunshine is very justified in raising the issue that some of the details of this case are likely to cause the OP and friend some significant problems if they pursue the plan in its current form.

There's nothing illegal about an "open marriage" in Germany - however, if there are any doubts about the legitimacy of the marriage, the fact of never having met face to face prior to the marriage will cause big problems. If the marriage is questioned, they will want statements from mutual friends (preferably in Germany) attesting to the duration of the relationship, how and when you met, etc. - and you can't really ask people to perjure themselves for you like that. People get married for all sorts of strange reasons, but in case of any doubts, the onus is on you to "prove" that you aren't doing so in order to either get a visa/residence permit or to qualify for benefits related to your existing conditions. They don't really care about the "romantic side" of the relationship.

I only mention this because back when I had my immigration problems in France, we thought they were questioning the validity of our marriage. The main problem, however, was actually my somewhat irregular entry into France. Which raises the other issue - namely that they can turn you down for immigration without having to give you a reason for doing so. The other issue here is that it is notoriously difficult for a foreigner (of any nationality) to marry a German in Germany - which is why the suggestion has been made of getting married in Denmark.

 

How exactly is your experience in France relevant to a discussion about the LAW in Germany?

Although I do work for a government department ìn Germany, I'm not trying to police anything. I do, however, feel it important to provide Amie with accurate information in order for her to make her plans and I am appalled at the inaccurate information provided by people who are obviously ignorant of how things work in Germany.

Furthermore, your advice regarding Denmark is also outdated; as of January 1, 2019, non-resident foreigners who want to marry in Denmark will have to apply through a central authority that has been established to screen out fake marriages.

 

I also lived in Germany for a while and have observed where laws and administrative practices are similar (and different) between the countries and throughout the EU. It's not up to us here on the forum to determine the legality (or not) of things that forum members are proposing or asking about.

Plenty of folks here on the forum have suggested to people looking to marry Germans that they should go to Denmark instead. Whether the new procedures for weeding out fake marriages will work is anyone's guess at this point. But even if you're perfectly legally and legitimately married, there isn't necessarily the right for your non-German spouse to obtain a visa or residence documents based solely on the fact of the marriage. (That seems to be the case in most countries these days.) I believe you were the one to point this out earlier in the thread.

Regardless of the motivations or arrangements for the marriage, I think Amie is going to run afoul of various suspicions and red flags that the situation offers. OTOH, I'm all for treating her inquiries as being sincere questions rather than some sort of nefarious attempt to break the law.

 

I'm all for treating her inquiries as being sincere questions rather than some sort of nefarious attempt to break the law.

She actually comes across as sincere and very naive to me, which is why I find it so upsetting that you are providing her so much inaccurate information. Although I don't believe there is any malice on your part, I do find it very irresponsible.

 

I totally agree with AKLB. The days are gone, thank God, when neighbors are punting yet other people who weren't married to each other. In Germany we didn't get Moralpolizei or Sharia yet.

The law is primarily intended to prevent uncontrolled people from non-EU countries from becoming settled in Germany and letting their families (large families) follow.
But it is hardly applicable when two people who like each other (I'm not talking about love) want to get married and settle in Germany.

Example: I could marry my "niece " although we do not love each other.
(We are not blood-related) This is how she and her children would be beyond my death supplied.

On the other hand I got a friend who used to live 'n work in Munich until he has been retired. Than suddenly he moved to US and married a woman. Never did he talk about her to me..Love ?? I 'm in doubt.

btw. Marriages in DK are possible in 2019
https://toender.dk/citizen/getting-married/getting-married?language=en

 

Example: I could marry my "niece " although we do not love each other.
(We are not blood-related) This is how she and her children would be beyond my death supplied.

You mean a Versorgungsehe?

https://www.deutsche-rentenversiche...lmedizin/08_sozmed_glossar/Functions/Glossar.html?cms_lv2=422844&cms_lv3=217680

Although I realise that it is still possible to get married in Denmark, it will not necessarily still be fast for foreigners (especially those who entering into sham marriages).

 

just watched a report in German TV about Marriage in Denmark, from Aero Island.
The reason for a change of process shall be a more centralized registering to the Government in Copenhagen. Actual only the regional comune administration do register.
Bit more beaurocracy.
Fi. a couple from London, both Argentines, came to Aero comune for marriage because it takes a long time in UK to get all papers.