Some are better than others, that's for sure. I've thought of offering a service, checking out properties for a potential buyer prior to his arrival, putting together an 'honest' selection from a selection of agents, according to very detailed criteria. There's an added advantage of local knowledge as well. Something to think about.

But yes, with a two week window to find somewhere that's very tight. In the early 90s it took me four months to settle on the 'ideal' property, and I visited a couple of hundred in total.

 

We found our US house on a a one-week vacation trip so we know it can be done with the right data. We actually looked at over 60, this was the third we saw.

We have made several trips to the area - we know exactly in what geographic limits we want to be, minimum house size, rooms etc and we have a budget. Wouldn't you think with that data a relator could provide some sense? I was told one room is 27 sq meters - great, I have a room in this house that size but it's only 8' wide! Floor plans and room sizes are essential but they don't even seem to have this data on file.

Ah well, just going to have t wear out some shoe leather I guess

David

 

You can always bypass estate agents and deal directly with sellers using this link

IMMOBILIER De Particulier A Particulier - Annonces immobilières de particuliers - Immobilier | PAP.fr | PAP

The owners' phone numbers are given - and usually more details too.

 

That's a great link, thank you.

David

 

Total sq.m. is the rule, I've yet to come across one that could provide the actual room dimensions in advance of a visit.

 

When we were looking to possibly move back to the UK we used an agent in Devon called Marchand & Petit - brilliant website, I'd have been happy making an offer unseen with their data - that's how it should be.

Cheers

David

 

You have to understand the basis on which French estate agents operate. They will not show you a property, nor give you any detail information (especially concerning the location) until you have signed a form stating that they are the agents and will get a fee from you should you wind up buying that property.

Though it's possible the sellers may set up an exclusive representation deal with the agent, it's far more common that any and all agents in the area will show a given property - and they have to collect their fee from the ultimate buyer, not from the seller.

If you inadvertently allow a second agent or agency to show you a property you have already seen and then you wind up buying that property, you owe BOTH agents their fee.
Cheers,
Bev

 

I'd be happy if just one agent would reply then we'd work with them exclusively if they want.

David

 

You could also try the web site leboncoin where individuals not agents advertise.

I bought this place through the French Property News website, which had been placed by a UK agent, and was fairly well detailed, We visited; we bought. Piece of cake.

Corsica was more complicated, but we started our search through PAP, which took us to the island for the first time last July, but we didn't buy that one. Trawling agents' sites - major search criterion being price - eventually we bought three properties - 2 in December (through an agent who did F*All for their 15% - YES 15% - but then did get me a 4-week let for one of them at no commission so ....) & 1 at the end of Jan which was through PAP initially and then contacts on the ground, and got a 2-month let on the spot for July & August this and every coming year from the vendor. Maybe we were just lucky, but we did an awful lot of homework, and we bought them all on our 3rd 4-day trip. On our 5th trip we also bought a car which we'd located through PAP as well.

Good site that

Good luck; happy hunting.
Hils

 

Thanks Hils,

I already searched PAP and found two properties worth viewing, also after my fourth (and more sternly worded) emails I got a reply from two agents. Things are looking up ;-)

David

 

David, you need to forget about the US customer service that you are used to. Here you need to search long and hard to find somebody decent to work with. Are you writing to agents in French or English? You might have a better chance communicating with the agents in French, especially if you are looking in the country.

 

From experience, browbeating a Frenchman tends to have the opposite effect to the one desired, even if it is not immediately apparent. You'll be made to pay for your apparent ignorance of the French maxim "the customer is always wrong" at some point, with the affronted individual getting payback sooner or later.

PS, the above is not a complete caricature of the way things are done in France. Not by a long chalk .

 

I have no intention of browbeating anyone - never works anywhere. However, I do expect courtesy and not replying to a business request is impolite and unprofessional and I won't hesitate to say so. Heck - its their business, not mine, I don't care if they don't sell to me.

Cheers

David

 

That was a (partly) tongue-in-cheek comment intended to appeal to a British ironic sense of humour. How long have you been in the States? (Second attempt ).

Seriously though, dealing successfully with French businessmen (and civil servants) is best achieved by not adopting the Anglo-Saxon outrage approach. On balance, more subtle methods are considerably more effective. Business/work criticisms, overt or implied, are taken personally.

 

19 years - there is NO sarcasm in California, it's completely wasted effort. Must be out of practice ;-) But the same business rules apply in the USA. As a colleague once said "you catch more flies with honey than vinegar".

David

 

Thanks Bev

Most real estate agents are opportunists rather than sales people: no manners, no education, no sales skills. They always flirt with illegality.

First they try to gauge you:
- how much you are ready to spend? The best bracket for them is between 0.35 to 1.3 million euros purchase.
- how serious you are about the purchase? Will you be able to conclude the sale ? How good is your credit rating? What your incomes are? family size?
- how smart are you? First, they will try to show you all sorts of funny accommodation that no one wants or items difficult to sale, even at reduced price. You have to detect what is wrong: the zone is subjected to floods, bush fires, noise, industrial disturbances, regular festive or agriculture activities. The property has hidden defects or the size has been increased on the description, or the garage on the picture was build on the neighbor's property . The classic hidden defects are: the roof is leaking, the insulation of the roof does not exist, the neighbors are allowed to cross on you property, electrical/plumbing/heating/sanitation standards are wrong, size is not as described, cost sharing (flats) is inadequate, termites have eaten the basement, you lovely future home is full of asbestos.

Then they will cheat you (or try to). A real estate is like a dentist: it is never painful, but at the end, you will endure torture. They never disclose problems unless you ask, and causes of problem can be millions on a property purchase.

Either you know what you are doing, or you might want your French/Brit/Oz Friends to guide you in the process. Make sure your profile is hardened is also a bets attitude. No too much 'though, remain accessible to make the best buy.

Just try 100 to get 10 and among them 2 or 3 will be the right realtors you're looking for.


Good luck

 

Your experience ties in with our previous house-hunting trips to France so I have narrowed down the realtors we will deal with to:

a) Can speak and understand English
b) Willing to work with a Notaire that I find
c) Will respond to written questions in a timely manner
d) Will actually answer questions especially for extra information

Every non-commital or non-answered question is a black mark - three black marks and you are out!

It's working - we are starting to get the data we need

Thanks everyone

David

 

Excellent, ....

Have you found any that matches your criteria so far?

best

 

Lets just say we're making progress - no one has three strikes yet ;-)

 

Removing some of the risk in France (or indeed anywhere else) is achieved by finding local expats who have been in the area for some years, and getting a gloss-free description of all the pros and cons. Most are delighted to help out.

Surprisingly, very few prospective purchasers do this. Some pay the price. Of these, a number have that pronounced self-confidence that comes with a successful career, and think that their knowledge and understanding is easily transferred to a different culture and way of life.

In particular, I'm thinking of a Dutch notary and a British headmaster who moved to my neck of the woods, and made some serious and highly expensive clangers in their purchases. These would have been easily avoided, if advice from local expats had been taken on board.

 

One other caveat when dealing with (real) estate agents in France - Their job and legal responsibilities are extremely different from those of a real estate agent in the US. Make sure you understand the differences in their responsibilities - and the limitations of their representations - before you decide to work or not with specific agents.

Real estate agents in France do NOT draw up the legal documents related to buying or selling a house and they don't have any great obligation to disclose (or even know about) the faults of a property they show.

I'd be surprised if any agent expresses any hesitation at working with whatever notaire you want. If the agent shows up at the closing, it's mainly to pick up the check for their fees. They don't seem to be terribly involved in the terms of the sale or the financing. And as far as you're concerned, you pay them their agreed fee if you actually close on a property they have shown you. Period.

As far as questions about a specific property, you'd be best served by going yourself to the local mairie and asking about local conditions and land-use policies, etc. I wouldn't rely on anything the agent tells you.
Cheers,
Bev

 

.../... when dealing with (real) estate agents in France .../...

'Surreal' estate agents would be more apt in many cases.

 

Yet another (big) caveat...

If you're planning on buying property on arrival in France, you should research very carefully what the inheritance laws here are BEFORE you buy the property. This is especially true if either you or your spouse have kids from a prior relationship.

I can tell you that most foreigners here find out only after the fact that the inheritance laws will not allow them to convey their French property the way they were planning on doing it. No real estate agent will have a clue about this and most notaires aren't really equipped to explain how the French system differs from what you may be used to.

The key point to check is, what marital regime you are assumed to be under (based on when and where you got married). That determines exactly how you can set up the purchase of your primary residence. (It may or may not be possible to have the home in one spouse's name.) From there, there may be some ways of setting up the purchase so that it will pass according to your wishes - using donations, specific forms of ownership or other vehicles. (It's also possible to change your marital regime - though it's expensive and somewhat complicated.) But in some cases, you can't completely disinherit a profligate child or completely protect the surviving spouse in precisely the way you had in mind.

Better you should consider this side of making the big move BEFORE you buy a home in France. (And it's definitely not the real estate agent's job to advise you on this.)
Cheers,
Bev

 

Yet another (big) caveat...

If you're planning on buying property on arrival in France, you should research very carefully what the inheritance laws here are BEFORE you buy the property. This is especially true if either you or your spouse have kids from a prior relationship.

As Bev says, the inheritance law situation is an absolute minefield. Take it from someone standing in the middle of one right now. All manner of complications arise from how property is owned (usufruit, SCI, nu propriété), whether you are married, pacsed, or simply living together, children from previous relationships, the existence of disputed wills, conflictual relationships with one or more children, bad advice from useless notaires, massive inheritance taxes, unexpected early deaths 'before one's time' and before the consequences have been propertly organised..... you name it, one or more of these situations is likely to affect you, and if you are unlucky, most or all of them... as in my case.

 

French estate agent commision is around 10% of the selling price. So they do not need to sell many houses to earn a good living...

 

No. Estate agents are free to fix commission, and it averages 6% in France these days. There are some chains advertising a fully inclusive 3 or 4 % rate in the current depressed market.

 

Yes it's the commission charged by the agent to the seller. I've never paid a centime to agents who have showed me hundreds of properties in France as a prospective purchaser, and I've bought four so far. I've heard of agents cutting their commission by as much as half to help a sale through, when seller and buyer cannot agree on a final figure.

 

The French national average, I remember reading in some study or other, was 6% a couple of years ago. Some rates have since gone down in a rather slow market that has seen agents go out of business.

Rates are usually less for higher priced properties.

 

I've just realised that you seem to be talking about paying 10% to an agent when buying, Isualt? Surely not! - it's free.

Notary charges are another matter.

 

Estate agent fees



Hi,

The agents fee is always passed onto the purchaser... The agent negotiated a substantial reduction in the price and the vendor asked we pay the agents fee. One way or another the agents cost is passed onto the buyer. Nothing in France is free! The notaire's fees were about the same as a UK solicitor but what he did apart from move forms around I do not know. Every time I contacted him, he contacted the agent who resolved the query.

We were cash buyers who rented in the area we had chosen and we did not find any "knock down" priced houses the UK newspapers and websites are saying are everywhere. Maybe there are such houses available but not in this area. We saw lots of houses priced at €500-700K that were truly only worth €200-200K - the owners had paid too much for them and had run out of money trying to make them worth the asking price. Nobody would wish to make a gain out of another persons misery.

Buying a house in France has been an "experience" but not sure we would wish to repeat it. The whole process is like a minefield and if unlucky you can have financially dangerous problems - it is a case of Buyer Beware and lots of planning. That is why forums like this are essential to anyone prior to making the move. You have all done it and experienced and resolved the real problems. Books on the subject are out of date and "rose tinted" For a year before deciding to make the move we watched forums and so were able to plan for most problems.

However, we have bought a really great house for a good price and are happy with it - or will be when the builders have finished and we can finally move in and enjoy it.

 

I'm sorry, but I genuinely have to disagree. In the vast majority of cases the agency fee only concerns the vendor. I say this not only as a four time purchaser and as a vendor over many years here, but as someone who held a sales agent's card for a couple of years in France. On each occasion I've bought - and that includes during a period when it was a seller's market - the seller names his price, I make my offer, and we reach a compromise. The seller then pays the agent's fee from the agreed price. It's very simple really.

Whether the agent approaches the potential buyer and says something along the lines of "I've agreed to halve my commission charge [to the seller] to help the transaction go through, so would you be prepared to make the tiny extra effort needed to conclude the purchase?" is NOT equivalent to the buyer being charged commission. You agree a price with the seller, you pay it, not a centime more. Then the seller coughs up the commission.

 

Agents fees

I'm sorry, but I genuinely have to disagree. In the vast majority of cases the agency fee only concerns the vendor. I say this not only as a four time purchaser and as a vendor over more than two decades here, but as someone who held a sales agent's card for a couple of years in France. On each occasion I've bought - and that includes during a period when it was a seller's market - the seller names his price, I make my offer, and we reach a compromise. The seller then pays the agent's fee from the agreed price. It's very simple really.

Whether the agent approaches the potential buyer and says something along the lines of "I've agreed to halve my commission charge [to the seller] to help the transaction go through, so would you be prepared to make the tiny extra effort needed to conclude the purchase?" is NOT equivalent to the buyer being charged commission. You agree a price with the seller, you pay it, not a centime more. Then the seller coughs commission.

Hi,

We did agree a price with the vendor and that price was was what we paid. The notaire drew up the contract and reduced the price we would pay for the house by the agents fee. We transferred the agreed price of the house into the notaire's account and the amount the notaire paid to the vendor was less the agent's fee - which we authorised the notaire to pay to the agent. In doing this we became aware of the agents fee.

So, one way or another the agents fee is passed onto the buyer you just do not see it. I would not sell this house and not include in the asking price the €45k I would be charged by an agent.

 

I would add that there is a distinct possibility that the vendor wasn't being entirely naive in 'paying' his 10%. It often happens that a price, when discussed between seller and agent at the outset, is fixed to include the fees so that the seller ends up with the price he originally wanted. That is very difficult to achieve in a buyers' market such as right now, but the agent will sometimes say "don't worry, we'll add on the 10%, but I'll be happy to charge half that or even less, to achieve a sale, and you in the meantime will appear to have significantly dropped your price".

The fact that you weren't able to negotiate a lower price, or at least to achieve a knock-down price, and the agent didn't have to intervene to offer to lower his commission rate as happens quite often, suggests to me the possibility, in today's market, that you didn't obtain the price that might have been possible with some tougher negotiation, and that the vendor got precisely the sale price he hoped for.

 

It's entirely possible that I misunderstood what we were signing. (DH is the local boy, so I usually follow his lead.)

But, as rynd2it says, it's going to be a real interesting trip. Just don't forget that "all your assumptions are wrong" - it's the mantra of the expat. Things over here really don't work at all like whatever you're used to!

I call them "Bad France Days" when these sorts of thing kind of gang up on you, as they do now and then... This, too, shall pass.
Cheers,
Bev

 

We bought a house just last year and it took a good part of 2009 to complete the sale but I think we had a pretty good experience.

We did our own research on houses that looked interesting online. I looked on every website known to man for our area, Alsace, specifically Haut-Rhin, Trois Frontières.

Our area is not known for its good deals because we are so close to the Swiss border, but the market is a bit down (or it was at the time).

I think we got lucky with the real estate agent who sold us our house for two reasons. One he just happened to be an honest hard working guy (apparently that's hard to find according to the posts here). Two he is a childhood acquaintance of my husband (that sort of stuff goes a long way in our area).

We were shown a lot of houses by different agents. Some of them didn't seem very competent at all. Others may have been who knows...

I remember that it helped to know people who were familiar with various home builders or were in the trades. People who could look at the electrical set up for example and tell you if it was in good shape.

Asking neighbors and nearby locals about the property saved us a few times (my husband's family has been here for generations so no problem there). If there is a property nearby that is in bad shape and uninhabited, it's good to know if there are heirs and what could happen to it for example.

Sometimes they know the person who built the house you are interested in or renovated it last and can tell you about the guy who did the work. Everyone over here knows everyone's business it seems.

The inspection reports were helpful too.

Also the notaire doesn't always check every detail in the contract. Like if the owner states something, it is usually accepted as fact (at least that was our experience) so if the owner states that the house is hooked up to the city plumbing and there appear to be wells on the property, check with the city.

In cases like these you can have the estimated costs to do the work removed from the selling price.

And (at least for me being an American) everything seems to take a lot longer than in the US.

Good luck with your house hunting!
Suzele
Changing Perspectives: Looking at Life from Different Angles

 

We would recommend that you look around all the estate agent windows in the nearest town to where you are hoping to buy. When we were looking for our house, we found it up for sale at 4 different prices in 6 different agencies.

The agencies set the commission they want to charge on top of the price they agree to sell for the vendor, so the price can vary from agent to agent.

If you sign a paper with the first agent & then find it cheaper elsewhere, there's not a lot you can do, if you really want the house - you are committed to pay their price.

Do your research first & where possible in the buyer's interests don't sign anything.

We found the village we liked then went into the agents & asked what properties they had available, that's how we discovered the variable pricing & commissions which can be up to 10% or even 20% (for a cheeky agent who targetted English!) .

When helping a family member to buy in France, we called the owners directly from outside the property for sale, as they often advertise a tel. No. to contact them directly without an agent involved.

You could also try your local Notaires Office.