Anywhere that is not France, is abroad. A Belgian bank account is a foreign bank account if you live in France.
Tax on the interest is due in France. I guess you can
claim back from the Belgian tax authorities the tax you pay to Belgium.
I opted not to receive interest because it would have only been a few euros, I don't keep savings in Wise, just money that I will spend fairly soon, and I foresaw the interest being more trouble than it was worth.

 

The problem is that Wise is not a bank per se so is not covered by the EU compensation although they say that they will cover any losses. Personally I only use Wise for transient FX payments or I put a bit of money on the multi currency card if going outside the Euro zone

 

Connexion says that all bank accounts should be declared, but you say Wise is not a bank account so should we have to declare it?

 

OK, first of all, yes, Belgium is "foreign" as far as the Fisc is concerned. (Oh, just saw ET's response.)

Reading through the Notice for form 2047, they do mention that for Belgium, the Fisc recognizes tax paid on interest of 17.6% but I don't find any sort of report of total interest paid for the year that could be used for tax reporting. Further to that, they refer to these payments as "cash back" which could be interpreted as a refund on some of your exchange and transfer fees. You may want to read the instructions for yourself and see what you think.

https://www.impots.gouv.fr/sites/default/files/formulaires/2047/2025/2047_5150.pdf

But, in going through my transactions for 2024, I see that the amount of "cash back" on the EUR balance was nearly always under 1€ a month so I suspect the amount may not be of great interest to the Fisc. But like Crabtree, I normally keep a pretty modest balance in the three currencies that Wise pays "cash back" on.

 

Are you a U.S. citizen and did you open the Wise account in America? If so, you will get a 1099 with the total amount, USD+Euro, stated in USD earned anyway, just use then your U.S. tax return for reference.

 

Just checked the Wise site and there is, indeed, a "tax statement" for the cash back paid - depending on where your Wise account is established.

Go into your account profile (upper right corner where your name is) and under Account, click on Statements and Reports. There is an option you can select for Balance cashback tax statement. This will give you the details on how much you were paid and how much tax was withheld.

 

It is possible to claim back the withholding tax paid by Wise in Belgium; there is a link in the Wise website to the form that has to be downloaded and returned. In theory you then declare the pre-tax "cashback"/"interest" to the Fisc who tax it as part of one's revenue, no tax credits involved. I looked at the possibility of doing this, but the claim form seemed hard work, there are inevitable delays between Wise withholding the tax and me getting reimbursed (delays that I suppose will cross tax French years) and decided in the end the sums involved were not worth the effort.

It's kind of annoying in principle and slightly disappointing that Wise don't make more of an effort to help us reclaim the tax (withheld at 30% !) but I suppose they work across so many jurisdictions and currencies that it would be a very expensive move for them.

TLDR: don't keep a lot of cash in Wise accounts.

PS I've never explored the other investment options offered by Wise. I imagine the same issue of withholding tax applies to those as well.

 

I had read through these helpful posts before joining a call with my accountant this morning. He agreed that each Wise account needs to be reported separately in the list of foreign financial accountants, and he also thought that the cashback amounts should be reported as income. He noted that the fact that Wise is withholding Belgian tax from the euro cashbacks indicates that they believe it is income of some sort. I realized when I looked at the cash balance tax statement that Bev found that I received quite a large amount last year, and I'd rather be on the straight and narrow with the French authorities. (With the dollar dropping, I've been moving more cash over here, and Wise has been the easiest vehicle to do that.)

 

What you didn't say is did the French tax you as well and did you get anything back from Belgium?

 

I declared the cashback as revenue with a "credit d'impôt" due. I believe (but don't have the data to hand right now; I'll update next week if I can) that I got a credit for tax already paid in Belgium - but lower than the full 30%withheld - and then got taxed again by the fisc. The bottom line is that I ended up with a bit of the cashback, but less than I would have had. Still, it was a small +ve amount - which is more than I can say for any of the traditional current accounts.

 

Declaring the existence of the accounts, and paying tax on any interest earned, are two separate issues.
As a resident of France you include all worldwide income on your income declaration to France. That means investment interest, pensions, all income from any source. Then the dual tax treaties are applied as appropriate to each specific revenue stream to prevent double taxation, or at least neutralise it to a large extent.
Under the fr-uk dta, uk state pensions are taxable in France, not in the uk.
Under most bilateral tax treaties, most investment income is taxable in the country of residence.
Any tax paid to the "wrong" country i e. not in compliance with the dta, can generally be reclaimed.
Basically it is a matter of following the rules. Trying to apply your own logic, will only confuse you

 

Yeah, you still have to declare it in France even if it’s a European account like in Belgium. France wants to know about any foreign account, including Wise. Declaring doesn’t always mean double taxation though, there are treaties to avoid that.

 

I had a look at the declaration I made last year, and also the advice I got from the fisc when I specifically asked about the cashback from Wise. This is what it boiled down to, but I don't understand the logic of the calculations - so if anyone can point out errors, or give a clearer explanation I'd be glad:

Suppose, for the sake of argument, the gross cashback paid by Wise (from all accounts) is 100€. They withhold 30€ and pay it to the Belgian tax office, so I get 70€ paid net into my account(s). The declaration would look like this (as of 2024; I haven't yet looked at the forms for 2025):

Box 238 is added to any other interests in box 251; it shows that the gross cashback (100€) has been reduced by approximately 17.6% (within rounding error) to 82€. Then on form 2042, the box 251 is entered in box 2TR (added to any other sums that might belong there) and the crédit d'impôt of 12€ should appear in box 8VL.

There are a couple of things here that puzzle me:

• As Bev says above - why 17.6% ? Seems a bit random.
• Why is it calculated on the net amount? I would have thought the calculation should have been on the gross amount, although as it turns out the result is about the same but it seems a bit of a roundabout way of doing things.

As I said above, my real sums were small and I didn't think it was worth the bother of spending hours and hours to get my head round it all, but being a bit of a perfectionist it's an itch I can't help but scratch.

 

I hate to put it this way, but "because that's how they do it here in France" is the only explanation I've been able to come up with after all my years here. I've basically given up trying to figure out "why" on most fiscal matters here since discovering how they calculate the tax rates based on the number of parts. The way it was explained to me seems much easier than the way they do it - but hey, if it makes the fonctionnaires happy in their jobs, so much the better, I guess. <bg>

 

OK, last minute update. I plugged your numbers into my ClickImpot file and here's what I got. Tricky to compare, given the different formats - but you'll note ClickImpot does NOT report anything to line 8VL. I suspect that this has something to do with the fact that tax on interest from French savings accounts is withheld by the bank and doesn't enter into the regular calculation of your general income tax - since basically bank interest in France is also taxed at 30% (income tax plus "cotisation").

plus the following:

 

Oh, and by the way, I ran the Notice for the 2047 form through Google Translate. Like all tax documents, it's not exactly easy reading (even in English), but apparently the tax treaty with Belgium is one of several that exonerates income from Belgium where taxes are paid in Belgium. They retain the amount you received net merely for grossing up your available income vs what you actually pay in France:

Under this method, France, as the State of residence,
exempts income taxable in the foreign State but retains the
right to take it into account when calculating the tax rate
applicable to income taxable in France. The effective rate
rule aims to fully maintain the progressive nature of the tax.
In practice, the tax is calculated on the total amount of
taxable and exempt income but is only due in proportion to
the share of the total income represented by income actually
taxable in France.

On the Notice itself, see p. 2 under the heading "REVENUS EXONÉRÉS EN FRANCE"

Taxes, you gotta love the complexity!

 

I am reading many conflicting reports about being Taxed twice not only on the wise account but also my state pension, whilst a lot say about agreement with the UK it would seem that others are experiencing double taxation on pensions. So will have to keep searching on this matter and declare my interest in Wise to the French Tax office.

Oh, and by the way, I ran the Notice for the 2047 form through Google Translate. Like all tax documents, it's not exactly easy reading (even in English), but apparently the tax treaty with Belgium is one of several that exonerates income from Belgium where taxes are paid in Belgium. They retain the amount you received net merely for grossing up your available income vs what you actually pay in France:

On the Notice itself, see p. 2 under the heading "REVENUS EXONÉRÉS EN FRANCE"

Taxes, you gotta love the complexity!

Does this mean that I will not get charged twice, the amounts are very small but I hate the thought of being robbed. I was forced to open this account just to pay my outstanding visa payments after being forced to close down my UK account. I am still concerned about my pension because it wold seem that they have increased the pension which they will then start taxing at a later stage.

 

UK pensions are tricky because, as I understand it, certain pensions are taxed by the UK while others should be paid to you with no taxes withheld. Obviously, the treatment is somewhat different. But for those living outside the UK, there is obviously some paperwork if you want the pension agency to remit your gross benefit to you.

 

There really isn't anything tricksy about the normal uk state pension that all pensioners get. It is taxed only in your country of residence. If you live in France you are not liable to pay tax on it to the uk.
Have you told hmrc you live in France?

 

There really isn't anything tricksy about the normal uk state pension that all pensioners get. It is taxed only in your country of residence. If you live in France you are not liable to pay tax on it to the uk.
Have you told hmrc you live in France?

The only "tricksy" thing is when you have no real connection with the workings of UK pensions and you're hoping to lure someone who knows something about it to respond. Thank you for jumping in, ET.

 

There really isn't anything tricksy about the normal uk state pension that all pensioners get. It is taxed only in your country of residence. If you live in France you are not liable to pay tax on it to the uk.
Have you told hmrc you live in France?

There really isn't anything tricksy about the normal uk state pension that all pensioners get. It is taxed only in your country of residence. If you live in France you are not liable to pay tax on it to the uk.
Have you told hmrc you live in France?

Yes have been in France since 2004.

 

Ok so they shouldn't send you a bill for tax on your pension then, if they know you're not resident in the uk.
They don't deduct tax PAYG from the state pension in any case, so you needn't worry that they'll help themselves without asking.

 

Just to add insult to injury, the way it has been explained to me is that on the tax forms, when they ask for "privé" vs. "public" what they want is whether your employer you were working for while qualifying for the pension was private or public (i.e. a government entity).

Yes, The Notice for 2047 clarifies:
Nature du revenu : cochez la case “public” pour les pensions versées au titre d’un emploi ayant été exercé auprès de l’État, d’une collectivité territoriale ou d’une personne morale de droit public (établissement public, notamment) et la case “privé” pour les autres pensions
Meaning that the heading "nature de revenu" in form 2047 is misleading, or actually, incorrect - it is not the revenue that needs to be classified as private or public, but the employment that generated the revenue (so "nature de l'emploi or activité" might be better). I had ticked the public box for a state pension, and was about to submit when I came across this thread...maybe not a big deal (why is it needed ?), so thanks, everyone.

Anyone else remember the signs in the barber's shop offering OAPs a discount ?

And Yes Clic, I remember. Might go back for a haircut.

 

And Yes Clic, I remember. Might go back for a haircut.

Most English towns seem to have a plethora of barber shops in a very small area.

Apparently none of them ever have customers, but they all declare a large turnover ...


ps It's taken me until today to realise why they are called a 'barber'. 🙈

 

Further update the Wise account on declaring to the Tax office, as yesterday I tried to do this in France connect and they said account cannot be added just like that you have to go to the tax office. Has anyone further information regarding declaring bank accounts to the tax office?

 

Not sure what you're trying to declare here - foreign bank accounts are declared along with your tax declaration on form 3916-3916bis (one form per bank account). If you filed electronically, the forms should be included with that filing. You can get a download of the form here: Formulaire n°3916

But are you trying to use your Wise account to make payments (and receive refunds) from the Fisc? I'm not sure that is possible, but maybe someone here will know.

 

No not trying to use it just have to declare that I have another account. The lady in the France Connect told me I had to go to the tax office to declare another account. So I will download your link. Thank you Bev