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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
El Valle de Los Caídos/ The Vally of the Fallen is where Franco and the Falangist leader Primo de Rivera are buried. It was built with the help of POWs by Franco and is a grey sombre place where Fascists gather on the 20 of November to remember Franco. Well, they would if it was still open, but it's been closed for a while now while it's decided what to do with the place, a very delicate matter.

"There is nothing else like it anywhere in the world," says one member of the latest commission, which includes historians, lawyers, philosophers and even a Benedictine monk. EL PAÍS has talked to the commission's members on how to convert this "monument to the war and national-Catholicism," in the words of its president, Socialist Party politician Ramón Jáuregui, "into a place of reconciliation."


A valley for all of the fallen? · ELPAÍS.com in English
 
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Fascinating that there's talk of exhuming and re-burying Franco.

I completely agree with Solé's comment that: "the Valley will be conserved as the pharaonic tomb that the dictator ordered to be built, an example of something that should never be allowed to happen again."

Reading the quotes at the end of the article you can tell that this is still an open sore for many still living in Spanish society. I was talking about the Civil War and/or lack of talk about just what happened in schools and many families with my mother in law the other day. She told me that it wasn't until she was an adult and went to the Valle with her children that she learned that she had a family member who had to build the monument. I don't want to say it's "too soon," but this is something very fresh in the memory for many. Heck, the other day grandma-in-law was in a tizzy because someone murdered a priest in a robbery and she was convinced that this was the start of another civil war.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
I'm dismayed that it's closed. Not for political motives, just because I was planning to go visit from a photography point of view

When did that happen.
I think it closed late 2009 early 2010 Stravinsky. It's true the views are great, but the place is pretty creepy and you're never quite sure who you're standing next to up there!
According to this it was a very popular spot, getting more visits than the Royal Palace and the Monastery, which personally I find hard to believe

El Valle de loa Caídos fue, durante la de 2008, el monumento más visitado de España, con 16.656 visitantes, por encima del monasterio de El Escorial y del Palacio Real de Madrid, según datos de Patrimonio Nacional.

The problem with keeping it open is that it will always be a place of congregation for the Fascists, although if you read Gile Tremletts "Ghosts of Spain" there's not to be feared of from them.
 

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The problem with keeping it open is that it will always be a place of congregation for the Fascists, although if you read Gile Tremletts "Ghosts of Spain" there's not to be feared of from them.

Yes, I read Ghosts of Spain, and it was actually that which made me want to go and see the place.

I guess we're lucky that no one knows where Hitlers remains ended up, as that would be even more of a draw.
 

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Stravinsky;542378 I guess we're lucky that no one knows where Hitlers remains ended up said:
Burnt and flushed away in a sewer in Magdeburg, according to Max Hastings.
His teeth ended up in Moscow, apparently.:)

I think the monument should be like the Peace Museum in Caen, a town destroyed by its liberators in 1944.
It should be a monument to the stupidity of war and loss of life on both sides of any conflict.
The constantly-playing soundtrack should be the world-weary voice of Marlene Dietrich singing 'Where have all the flowers gone..?'
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
The problem with keeping it open is that it will always be a place of congregation for the Fascists, although if you read Gile Tremletts "Ghosts of Spain" there's not to be feared of from them.
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Sorry, very badly written post. It should read like this more or less
The problem with keeping it open is that it will always be a place of congregation for the Fascists, although if you read Giles Tremletts "Ghosts of Spain" there's not too much to be feared of from them.
__________________
 

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anyone wondering why this comes up just before elections? Which the PSOE are due to lose ...

Expect more 'garbage' to come from the Moncloa, about not renewing the nobility titles awarded by Franco etc.

And as 99% of the Spaniards say: who cares? It features VERY low on the list of priorities of Spanish.

Have a look at a blog (easily found in google) by Ricardo Saenz de Ynestrillas. Neither the PP nor anyone else is seriously (or even minimally) bothered by this. Though 99% of spaniards see through the electoral posturing of it.

Imho: let Franco where he is. It helps tourism in Cuelgamuros :)

I still think that the execution of Primo de Rivera was one of the worst stupidities done by the Republic: had they released him to Franco, Franco would have been enormously and seriously embarrassed.
 

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anyone wondering why this comes up just before elections? Which the PSOE are due to lose ...

Expect more 'garbage' to come from the Moncloa, about not renewing the nobility titles awarded by Franco etc.

And as 99% of the Spaniards say: who cares? It features VERY low on the list of priorities of Spanish.
Hmmm ... well, maybe

But bearing in mind that at times family were fighting family, and bodies still remain buried at the side of the road from the atrocities many years ago, you try engaging a Spaniard in a discussion about Franco and the history of what happened. Many of them (the older population) just dont want to talk about it.
 

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i ***think*** that the majority of spaniards under 20 have problems remembering who Franco was :)

and when even Ricardo is not too keen on defending him (his allegiance goes more to José Antonio) ... whatever Zapatero - but don' t forget that wherever you put Franco, some are going to come and visit him (more than Zapatero's grave) ....
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
i ***think*** that the majority of spaniards under 20 have problems remembering who Franco was :)

and when even Ricardo is not too keen on defending him (his allegiance goes more to José Antonio) ... whatever Zapatero - but don' t forget that wherever you put Franco, some are going to come and visit him (more than Zapatero's grave) ....
I agree with you about the young ones.

Obviously we're all supposed to know who Ricardo is, but I don't. I'm guessing it's not Ricardo el Corazón de León???????????:)
 

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Sorry, very badly written post. It should read like this more or less
The problem with keeping it open is that it will always be a place of congregation for the Fascists, although if you read Giles Tremletts "Ghosts of Spain" there's not too much to be feared of from them.
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There is always good reason to be afraid of fascists. But as long as they continue to have their little ceremony at El Valle, you can see who they are and keep an eye on them.

I would turn it into a monument to the futility and destructiveness of the war, with a visitor centre like the one at Auschwitz that you have to pass through before getting to the tomb itself. The visitor centre should have examples not only of the atrocities people committed against each other, but also of the extraordinary courage they showed in helping each other.

Then it should be a compulsory school trip for all 16 year olds.
 

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I happen to be .-)
Ricardo is not a bad guy - did actually do a number of good things :)

though must admit doze off when he starts about national catholicism ....

check his blog from time to time - you may agree to some things there!



ps in Spain, Ricardo (in politics)... there's only one.
same as Don Manuel - also only one.
Jordi - the same.


:focus:
 

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There is always good reason to be afraid of fascists. But as long as they continue to have their little ceremony at El Valle, you can see who they are and keep an eye on them.

I would turn it into a monument to the futility and destructiveness of the war, with a visitor centre like the one at Auschwitz that you have to pass through before getting to the tomb itself. The visitor centre should have examples not only of the atrocities people committed against each other, but also of the extraordinary courage they showed in helping each other.

Then it should be a compulsory school trip for all 16 year olds.
hmmm same goes for communists murderers like Lenin, Stalin, Mao, Castro, Guevara etc. - always beware of people who think they hold the complete truth.

The monument is the Valle for the Fallen - of both sides. If Zapatero insists, I am sure a number of people would happily make space for him immediately.
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
I happen to be .-)
Ricardo is not a bad guy - did actually do a number of good things :)

though must admit doze off when he starts about national catholicism ....

check his blog from time to time - you may agree to some things there!



ps in Spain, Ricardo (in politics)... there's only one.
same as Don Manuel - also only one.
Jordi - the same.


:focus:
Or Felipe
or Gil y Gil...
 
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