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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hola everyone...
Nope I don't speak Spanish as yet but I'm starting to teach myself lol and given up a few times already :rolleyes:
I've not been back to Spain for a few years now and I miss it every day. That of course is not a good enough reason to sell up and move.
What I need to do now is look at all the pros and cons and make a decision ASAP based on reality and need. It doesn't mean need for sun and beer, maybe more like warmer climate, sunshade and G & T :) Funny thing is I'm almost tea total but always seemed to get into the (spirit!) of things when I was there lol

I have so many questions and probably many others I'm not even aware of just yet I'm sure! So plz do suggest directions?
The biggest question I always use to ask myself is, am I going to Spain or leaving the UK!...Sounds silly I know, but what I really mean is, did I want to leave the UK more than I wanted to go to Spain!! (Didn't I just say that lol)

I was looking at property a few years ago, only found 1 out of about 30 places I looked at and it still wasn't 100% right. That was more of a look and see if anything felt right as I wasn't really ready to make the move for various reasons.
Money is now not going to go as far perhaps so that is a big worry!!

Ok, I'll list a few things I would welcome feedback and any info you might think would help me.

I would like a place inland S East Spain, depending on costs maybe big enough to split the land if possible at some point to sell off half of it, possibly build a house on the 2nd plot. (just an idea, probably lack of funds for this!)
I want olive trees as would like the land to have some income although I would expect this wouldn't be much!
How much can you make from growing olives anyway?
I guess it depends on size of trees and plot but like some detailed figures plz?
What are the Tax implications from income like this?

What's happening with rural property prices, where is it compared to 3 years or so ago?

I'm self employed sole trader at the moment, can I do the same in Spain & are there extra costs, more Tax than I would pay in the UK etc?

I've seen a post on here for cost of living but that was further North, what are the average living costs in S East Spain inland not coastal? Say inland Alicante region!
Costs for Petrol, food, Electric, bottled gas, logs to last a winter, land line, broadnband, mobile, car tax, mot etc etc?
Of course I understand a rural spot is going to be hard to find electricity sometimes let alone broadband!

I'm in IT but not sure what the demand would be for a brit English only speaking (so far)?
Is there a demand for IT bods to support brits?

I'm hoping I can build a more simple life and be as self sufficient as possible, wind turbine, solar panel etc to help keep the costs down.
I've never had a typical holiday in Spain, I was always busy helping out, be that cutting down the odd dead olive tree, stacking wood, ploughing the land and even helping someone extend their Vila.

Very sorry for this looooong posting, but this could be my 1st steps to a complete life change so it's important!!! so be gentle.
Thanx :peace:
 

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Hi I am new to this site.. my husband has just finished serving 22yrs in the Army and now he and myself are looking to rent in Spain for approx six months to one year to see how we feel about living in Spain and then look for long term let.. I am not sure where to look for the best to be honest for rental, so any suggestions would be more than welcome...

Many Thanks

Yvonne
 

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Muddy, the first thing you should do is try to come out and rent for a short period of time, just to get a feel for the place! As Vonny has said, you need to see how it feels when you are actually here. That way you can find out and understand a bit about olive growing.

Tax in Spain if you are self employed (autonomo) I think is around 260€ a month and you must pay that every month I believe, but it is a flat rate, unlike the UK which is a a percentage and sliding scale.

As for phone/internet etc, well even in the campo (rural) areas, there are various ways, satelite, wifi etc which actually work out cheaper than telefonica and are probably more efficient (well mine is) and there are plenty of Brit IT bods around who will help you

As for the cost of living, well apart from gas (which is a bit cheaper cos it comes in bottles), its roughly the same as the UK. Buying a car is dearer, white goods are dearer. Council tax is cheaper, petrol is cheaper, cigarettes and alcohol are cheaper, but most other things are about the same these days,

The one thing you MUST be wary of is buying a property and then expecting to be able to add solar panels, wind turbines etc.. Altho these things are very topical at the moment, so is the "illegal build" issue and you would need all manner of permissions and authorisations to be allowed to erect anything or add to your porperty.

So get over here and take a look and rent for a while, before you commit yourself is my advise

Jo xxx
 

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Hi I am new to this site.. my husband has just finished serving 22yrs in the Army and now he and myself are looking to rent in Spain for approx six months to one year to see how we feel about living in Spain and then look for long term let.. I am not sure where to look for the best to be honest for rental, so any suggestions would be more than welcome...

Many Thanks

Yvonne
Heck Yvonne, Spain is a big place lol!!!!! What do you want?? Theres the beautiful mountains, theres the coasts, theres inland, there are the cities, culture, history, the campos, tourist areas, hundreds of expat communities everywhere...............

What you need to do is work out what you want from Spain and the things you're gonna need - ie, have you got family in the UK? So do you want to be relitavely near an airport? Do you want to be near a beach....... Have a look on "google earth" and try to find an area that ticks the boxes, have a look at some of the other posts on here about your chosen area, ask more questions and then come over and see it.

Welcome to the forum BTW

Jo xxxx
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Muddy, the first thing you should do is try to come out and rent for a short period of time, just to get a feel for the place!
Jo xxx
Thanx for the feedback Jo
My stays were usually 3 weeks when I came over and I stayed with friends so I got a good feal for life in the campo! I guess it would be safer to make sure by trying to rent for a while but funds are tight so depends on cost and how much time I can spare!
There would be no point in me renting unless it was out of town of course, so not sure how easy that would be to get set up!

So the autonomo flat rate of tax is payable if you make zero!? But is there a scale of increase to income I can have a look at or does it not work that way?

Brit IT bods; great plenty around to help, not so great as I'm an IT bod also lol:D

Cost of living;
Well I must start doing more research, a few years ago when I was there I was told cost of living was a lot cheaper, but perhaps inflation or other factor has had an effect!

Property;
Yeah I've seen so many programs on Spain, seeing people having there houses knocked down is hard watching.
I assumed as Spain is in the forefront of solar power that it wouldn't be too hard to do this on a small scale for your own property if its out of town, but another thing I'll add to me list to check on regulation for this!

One of my big worries is what will happen with property prices here and in sunny Spain this year, currency changes also a big factor. It's all a mater of timing I guess.

Thanx again for the feedback
 

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Thanx for the feedback Jo
My stays were usually 3 weeks when I came over and I stayed with friends so I got a good feal for life in the campo! I guess it would be safer to make sure by trying to rent for a while but funds are tight so depends on cost and how much time I can spare!
There would be no point in me renting unless it was out of town of course, so not sure how easy that would be to get set up!

So the autonomo flat rate of tax is payable if you make zero!? But is there a scale of increase to income I can have a look at or does it not work that way?

Brit IT bods; great plenty around to help, not so great as I'm an IT bod also lol:D

Cost of living;
Well I must start doing more research, a few years ago when I was there I was told cost of living was a lot cheaper, but perhaps inflation or other factor has had an effect!

Property;
Yeah I've seen so many programs on Spain, seeing people having there houses knocked down is hard watching.
I assumed as Spain is in the forefront of solar power that it wouldn't be too hard to do this on a small scale for your own property if its out of town, but another thing I'll add to me list to check on regulation for this!

One of my big worries is what will happen with property prices here and in sunny Spain this year, currency changes also a big factor. It's all a mater of timing I guess.

Thanx again for the feedback
I'm not an expert on the tax thing over here, but I do know when my OH was gonna move over here, thats what we found - self employed is the same as "autonomo" and that was the flat rate ammount he was quotede - great if you earn tons, but not so great if you dont or it varies!!! There are others who pop into the forum who'll put you right or have a look thru previous posts - do a search for "autonomo"

Yes Spain is in the forefront of solar energy - but Spain doesnt use logic when it comes to properties, nor does "the left hand know what the right hand is doing" over here lol!!!!! Just be cautious on that one.

Property prices are expected to go down here again this year - but who knows for sure???

Any yes, sadly you will be one of squillions of IT bods. But if you shine out above the rest???

Jo xxx
 

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Hi , the 260e is not your tax it is the minimum soc. sec. payment monthly.This is payable as soon as you register regardless of any income. You can pay more in if you want a pension above the basic. On top of this you have tax & vat payments every 3 mths plus a monthly fee to the asesoria to do the bookwork. There is no minimum vat threshold in Spain, where under a certain amount you don't need to pay vat, like there is in the Uk.

Olive growing you'll never make any money at the present prices. Over the last 7 yrs the price has only gone one way, down. I picked 1,7tonnes this year to earn the princely sum of 450e. Even with 1,000 trees @ 40kgs. a tree with an oil % of 21 you would be lucky to clear 12k before expenses. Most Spaniards, and me, involve the family to pick, so you dont have to pay labour. You can have them picked by machine but that's around 200e an hour plus del. & collection! When the prices are good around 3,5e , yes the figures add up but at present they don't. Hops this helps.
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Hi , the 260e is not your tax it is the minimum soc. sec. payment monthly.
Hi again Jo, thanx for all the info and advice.
Thanx gus-lopez for the Tax info.

If I do shake a few olives off my future trees does the tax mentioned above apply?
Just wondering if someone was retired or just not working how they deal with getting a few euros for their olives?

Very disappointed with how little income it appears I could make on olive oil as it's not cheap here in UK!
Was hoping it would have been a lot more than this, still the reality usually hurts!
Surely Spaniards are not paying such high flat-rate tax for such little income from a small plot of olive trees, are they just being left to rot in the fields or is there any cash in hand to save them from doing this?
Or as Gus says the e260 is not tax, that's for healthcare etc and any income will be tax on top!

Can you clarify please;
If I spend more than 180 days a year in Spain will I have to pay tax in Spain!?
Or is this consecutive days only. I was told 4 years ago that I could leave the country and come straight back every six months etc, or is this nonsense?
I’ve always paid tax but so far after all I’ve read Spain’s tax system would mean me loosing out I think as I don’t work that much and IT freelance is never regular.

Gus;
When you say “This is payable as soon as you register regardless of any income.”
I assume you mean register as “autonomo”?

Anyone know of a website or software where I can compare UK and Spain living and working costs!?
I guess I could bodge up a spreadsheet but something built for the job would be better!
What I would like is to be able to input UK and Spain details and compare the lot so I know how much tax etc etc etc!!
I don’t plan on making any move unless I know all the costs in detail.

Thanx again for all the feedback so far, very helpful :)
John AKA (Muddy)
 

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John

Tax etc - As soon as you are an autonomo - which you'll need to be to issue VAT receipts - You have to pay your Social Security dues. And do the tax thing and quarterly VAT. You can always TRY to work for cash - but there are political moves afoot to slam this VERY HARD indeed. Spain is well up the list for taking cash and so not adding/declaring vat. And the EU is pressuring hard. Spain heading the UE this semester is not on your side.

Olives etc - You'll be better off "letting" somebody else pick them with a proviso they leave you some and give you some of the oil back once pressed. This is pretty standard in rural Spain.

The 180day rule is still a bit grey - but it's interpreted as 180 total in any 12 month period more often than not now.

I'm not sure how they police it - but you need to careful. In many areas running ANY business from a residential address (especially in the "urbanisaziones") is frowned upon if not actually contrary to the urban status (in ours it is straight up not allowed) - And neighbours can and will complain to the town hall who immediately send the police to check. This (believe me) stops being amusing after the 2nd or 3rd visit.

IT freelance work here is VERY irregular. And nowhere NEAR as well paid.

Cost of living is very dependant on where and how you live. If you buy food/veg and Olive Oil in local farmer type markets prices can seem cheap. Shop in a supermarket and look for English foodstuffs, you may well cringe.

A lot of taxes - like car tax/rates/rubbish collection etc etc vary from village to village as they are local taxes.

Public transport is cheaper and certainly here in Madrid very reliable/frequent but prices shot up massively this year. In other areas I know this is not the same.

Don't tell anybody - but I work in a small village town hall. They cannot really afford me - so are happy I work only 17hours a week (IT btw). No way I could live of this - but it's closer to a hobby than "work".
 

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Very disappointed with how little income it appears I could make on olive oil as it's not cheap here in UK!
John I'm also in IT and have considered earning money in Spain both from IT and something similar to your olives (rural tourism).

After weighing up all the pros and cons I decided to earn my money in the UK and live as much time as I could in Spain.

After some time you may find, as I and a friend of mine have, that you can perform UK IT support contracts from Spain with just a good internet connection. Thus have the best of both worlds.

By not putting my income needs within Spain I of course tie myself to the UK but as a counter balance I have also been able to choose my Spanish location based on quality of life and low cost of living.

It depends of course on what type of IT you do but in the UK £300+ per day for technical support was easy even in the pit of recession. Living in the Spanish countryside without fluent Spanish I think you will struggle to match that.

But good luck with your dream. It took me a while to organise but the rewards are well worth it.
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
John

Tax etc - As soon as you are an autonomo - which you'll need to be to issue VAT receipts - You have to pay your Social Security dues. And do the tax thing and quarterly VAT.
Thanx Chris for the info..
Yeah I've never worked for cash apart from a couple of small jobs over the last 10 years, peeps just don't want to pay cash it seems lol
My idea was to have quality of life and slow things down so no point in worrying about things when you're going to all the effort to move out there right :)

Olives; Well I guess it depends on how big the plot is and how many trees, but I'm not sure my brain could handle giving money away for a few gallons of oil back in return if there were some reasonable earnings, but I can see now probably not worth crying over unless I had a big-ish plot!

ANY business from a residential address;
If I do get out there it will hopefully be a plot of land with a small house 30 to 40 ish miles inland off a dusty side trail. This is what I experenced and is what I like so what are the rules for running types of business out in the sticks?

Sounds like you have some nice neighbours! What were you doing to bother them if anything?

Gr8 that you got yourself in at the Town hall, my lips are sealed ;)
I assume you speak fluent Spanish if you got in that door!
Thanx for all the detailed info, didn't know car tax was local tax etc!

------------------------------------
John I'm also in IT and have considered earning money in Spain both from IT and something similar to your olives (rural tourism).
Hi Nigele
Thanx for the reply..
That's an interesting mix (rural tourism)! I did think about a B & B when I found a property 4 years ago that had a brand new cycle route tarmacked over an old disused railway, gr8 plot of land but it had very few trees (olive trees) lol But it was a great spot for walkers and bikers passing by.

IT Support;
In truth I would like to leave the IT support behind and start a fresh, but if I could get £300 a day a few times a week then I would be up for that.
I was on a bit more a while back but no work now, but I only got 1 or 2 days work a week and the odd office move or Server build.
I use to work for small companies and they always needed a lot of hand holding so even tho I had full remote to sites they almost always wanted me to visit the office once a week, obviously a none runner from pool-side!
I assume you use an agency to get contracts rather than having clients direct?
So do you limit your days per year in sunny Spain to stay within the UK tax system or isn't that much of a problem for you?

Yeah I'm sure I will find it hard to make ends meat as I don't speak the lingo...!
But perhaps it might be possible for me to support just UK based clients (phone only) and maybe some Spanish based English companies but unlikely me thinks..!

Gr8 to hear you're enjoying the life there, I'm still thinking hard if it's going to be right for me but all the info from you guys so far has been a big help.
Cheers
John
 

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Sounds like you have some nice neighbours! What were you doing to bother them if anything

I don't know about Spain but I do know that if we were still in the UK and running our business from premises we had bought, paid commercial rates on, all the usual overheads and knew that our neighbours were running a business from their home, paying domestic rates, no extra overheads etc. .....we'd have been a bit peeved, to say the least.;)
 

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pinkchic

Hola everyone...
Nope I don't speak Spanish as yet but I'm starting to teach myself lol and given up a few times already :rolleyes:
I've not been back to Spain for a few years now and I miss it every day. That of course is not a good enough reason to sell up and move.
What I need to do now is look at all the pros and cons and make a decision ASAP based on reality and need. It doesn't mean need for sun and beer, maybe more like warmer climate, sunshade and G & T :) Funny thing is I'm almost tea total but always seemed to get into the (spirit!) of things when I was there lol

I have so many questions and probably many others I'm not even aware of just yet I'm sure! So plz do suggest directions?
The biggest question I always use to ask myself is, am I going to Spain or leaving the UK!...Sounds silly I know, but what I really mean is, did I want to leave the UK more than I wanted to go to Spain!! (Didn't I just say that lol)

I was looking at property a few years ago, only found 1 out of about 30 places I looked at and it still wasn't 100% right. That was more of a look and see if anything felt right as I wasn't really ready to make the move for various reasons.
Money is now not going to go as far perhaps so that is a big worry!!

Ok, I'll list a few things I would welcome feedback and any info you might think would help me.

I would like a place inland S East Spain, depending on costs maybe big enough to split the land if possible at some point to sell off half of it, possibly build a house on the 2nd plot. (just an idea, probably lack of funds for this!)
I want olive trees as would like the land to have some income although I would expect this wouldn't be much!
How much can you make from growing olives anyway?
I guess it depends on size of trees and plot but like some detailed figures plz?
What are the Tax implications from income like this?

What's happening with rural property prices, where is it compared to 3 years or so ago?

I'm self employed sole trader at the moment, can I do the same in Spain & are there extra costs, more Tax than I would pay in the UK etc?

I've seen a post on here for cost of living but that was further North, what are the average living costs in S East Spain inland not coastal? Say inland Alicante region!
Costs for Petrol, food, Electric, bottled gas, logs to last a winter, land line, broadnband, mobile, car tax, mot etc etc?
Of course I understand a rural spot is going to be hard to find electricity sometimes let alone broadband!

I'm in IT but not sure what the demand would be for a brit English only speaking (so far)?
Is there a demand for IT bods to support brits?

I'm hoping I can build a more simple life and be as self sufficient as possible, wind turbine, solar panel etc to help keep the costs down.
I've never had a typical holiday in Spain, I was always busy helping out, be that cutting down the odd dead olive tree, stacking wood, ploughing the land and even helping someone extend their Vila.

Very sorry for this looooong posting, but this could be my 1st steps to a complete life change so it's important!!! so be gentle.
Thanx :peace:
Hi i have one word of advice for you DONT DO IT !! i have lived here for ten years and the truth is the spanish have had our money they don´t want us anymore, i work here, have children here 2 born here seriously save yourself the heartache and stay put, there is absolutley nothing here for an english person wanting to work here especially self employed, ys they´ll take your money, yes they´ll smile while your bank account is full,one it runs out try to get help for yourself and it´s no no no , please don´t come here i´m trying desperatly to get out , yes i still own a house here yes i own a business here so ask yourself why i want to go home, spain is good for a holiday or quick break with rose tinted glasses nothing more, don´t be fooled there are thousands of people every month going home.
 

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Hi i have one word of advice for you DONT DO IT !! i have lived here for ten years and the truth is the spanish have had our money they don´t want us anymore, i work here, have children here 2 born here seriously save yourself the heartache and stay put, there is absolutley nothing here for an english person wanting to work here especially self employed, ys they´ll take your money, yes they´ll smile while your bank account is full,one it runs out try to get help for yourself and it´s no no no , please don´t come here i´m trying desperatly to get out , yes i still own a house here yes i own a business here so ask yourself why i want to go home, spain is good for a holiday or quick break with rose tinted glasses nothing more, don´t be fooled there are thousands of people every month going home.

Gosh, thats a little harsh. Dont forget the Spanish may have been grateful that the british chose their country to live, but the British didnt just chose Spain for the sunshine - it was, until fairly recently very cheap to live here - certainly compared to the UK.

Its still a different way of life here and there are still people who want to get out of the UK. It works both ways doesnt it - have those who want to leave Spain got rose tinted glasses on about the UK??

Jo xxx
 

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Hi i have one word of advice for you DONT DO IT !! i have lived here for ten years and the truth is the spanish have had our money they don´t want us anymore, i work here, have children here 2 born here seriously save yourself the heartache and stay put, there is absolutley nothing here for an english person wanting to work here especially self employed, ys they´ll take your money, yes they´ll smile while your bank account is full,one it runs out try to get help for yourself and it´s no no no , please don´t come here i´m trying desperatly to get out , yes i still own a house here yes i own a business here so ask yourself why i want to go home, spain is good for a holiday or quick break with rose tinted glasses nothing more, don´t be fooled there are thousands of people every month going home.
I find it hard to believe that someone with such a poor grasp of their native language can be self employed. Little or no punctuation, total lack of grammar, can't spell.
If your bank account is empty, then presumably you have failed...so let's blame it on the Spanish eh ?
Can't see the Spanish losing any sleep when you depart these shores.
 

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Hi i have one word of advice for you DONT DO IT !! i have lived here for ten years and the truth is the spanish have had our money they don´t want us anymore, i work here, have children here 2 born here seriously save yourself the heartache and stay put, there is absolutley nothing here for an english person wanting to work here especially self employed, ys they´ll take your money, yes they´ll smile while your bank account is full,one it runs out try to get help for yourself and it´s no no no , please don´t come here i´m trying desperatly to get out , yes i still own a house here yes i own a business here so ask yourself why i want to go home, spain is good for a holiday or quick break with rose tinted glasses nothing more, don´t be fooled there are thousands of people every month going home.
Sorry it didn't work out. What went wrong do you think?
 

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Hi i have one word of advice for you DONT DO IT !!
pinkchic I think your warning won't do any harm but Spain is a big country supporting numerous life styles. I know many working foreigners in Spain who are very happy. Third hand I know some who are not but I think we must be careful of generalisations.

I have a friend who is a Dane. He is a flamenco guitar maker - self employed artisan. He had no previous reputation. Now you would think that was a formula for disaster. However after 10 years he couldn't be happier or more accepted.

Spain is IMHO badly governed, lacks justice, lacks democracy, lacks cash, has an extreme class system, and so much corruption it is wise to trust noone who you do not know very well - but most people know that before they arrive. Equally it offers great opportunity, many cultures that are very different and wonderful, passion, art, great historic sites, wonderful landscapes, some great widelife, varied and rich lifestyles, .........

In my village, not the poorest part of Spain by a long way there are people on the bread line begging. These are not drop outs or drugos. If Mr Bean can't or won't help them then I see little reason why he should bail out foreign owned buisnesses.

You say you are based in Alicante; are you dependent on expats or tourism for your income? If not could you share what has gone wrong for you so we might all benefit?
 

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Hi i have one word of advice for you DONT DO IT !! i have lived here for ten years and the truth is the spanish have had our money they don´t want us anymore, i work here, have children here 2 born here seriously save yourself the heartache and stay put, there is absolutley nothing here for an english person wanting to work here especially self employed, ys they´ll take your money, yes they´ll smile while your bank account is full,one it runs out try to get help for yourself and it´s no no no , please don´t come here i´m trying desperatly to get out , yes i still own a house here yes i own a business here so ask yourself why i want to go home, spain is good for a holiday or quick break with rose tinted glasses nothing more, don´t be fooled there are thousands of people every month going home.
I so feel for you, & there are so many in this situation - I personally know quite a few who have been doing very well for years who are now barely scraping by

Originally posted by Hombre I find it hard to believe that someone with such a poor grasp of their native language can be self employed. Little or no punctuation, total lack of grammar, can't spell.
If your bank account is empty, then presumably you have failed...so let's blame it on the Spanish eh ?
Can't see the Spanish losing any sleep when you depart these shores.
that's just downright nasty:mad:


there are many here who have had successful businesses - not just immigrants but Spanish too - that are going under right now

I don't know pinkchic's situation but she could be one of those - maybe she screwed up, maybe she didn't - it's not for you (or me) to throw stones

the reality is, in Spain, that even if you have been paying into the system your entire life there isn't the state support available that there is in the UK - some, but not much & not for long

and don't forget family support - not necessarily financial - just having extended family around to help - how many of us have that here in Spain?










please please please can we have a multi-quote button

or if there is one where is it?:confused2:
 

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that's just downright nasty:mad:
That's just hombre, he is often like that :eek:. Pity because his aggressive style hides some valid points.


there are many here who have had successful businesses - not just immigrants but Spanish too - that are going under right now
Very true and if these expat businesses were back in the UK what pecking order for support would the owners think is correct? UK businesses or polish plumbers to give an example?

Does anyone know of any statistics that show the contribution of expat businesses to the economy and in particular to creating jobs for the spanish? I guess if there was a demonstrable case that in reality over recent years the contribution was greater than the exploitation then perhaps some help might be justifiable. But even then as Spain has no economy at the moment where would the money come from?

Very sad all round. Bring on the revolution
 

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That's just hombre, he is often like that :eek:. Pity because his aggressive style hides some valid points.
yes - it is a shame he feels the need to be aggressive

I know it's his style, but I feel that this time he's just gone too far

Very true and if these expat businesses were back in the UK what pecking order for support would the owners think is correct? UK businesses or polish plumbers to give an example?

Does anyone know of any statistics that show the contribution of expat businesses to the economy and in particular to creating jobs for the spanish? I guess if there was a demonstrable case that in reality over recent years the contribution was greater than the exploitation then perhaps some help might be justifiable. But even then as Spain has no economy at the moment where would the money come from?

Very sad all round. Bring on the revolution


my point was that there is no real government support for anyone, immigrant or not, no 'pecking order' in mind

& that a lot of immigrants don't have family support here, so maybe everything just feels worse
 
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