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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I've been seething about this all day so I thought I'd share. I work in a convenience shop in rather a "rough" end of town, In the south of England. I'm the supervisor, so have to deal with the complaints. Two girls came into the shop, there was some raised voices and one demanded to speak with the manager - I was as senior as it gets in the evenings. Anyway, one of the girls, she couldnt have been more than 15, was complaining that the checkout operator was refusing to accept the milk tokens she gets for her baby on two bottles of wine and some cigarettes! Apparently other checkout operators have allowed it and she simply couldnt see or understand why we wouldnt let her. They both shouted, ranted, refused to leave the shop... in the end I called the police, even then they said "good, they'll sort it", Convinced that the police would be on their side!! The "mother" then had a go at me for making her baby cry WTF??? The poor little thing had been sat in its buggy with its teenage mum and her mate hurling abuse. In the end she went - before the police arrived.

What has happened to the UK???????

I've worked in this shop for six months and I've been shouted at, sworn at most evenings, I've watched so many shop lifters just help themselves without even trying to be discreet, kids and adults picking things off the shelf and eating and drinking them while shopping.............

Rant over

Jo xxx
 

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My personal hate is all the young ones who think they have the automatic right to cross the road, any place they like, right in front of a car. Many play chicken, looking right at you daring you not to stop, but today three young lads stepped right in front of me, and looked genuinely shocked as I kept on moving. It was clear they truly thought they had the right to go where they want with no heed for anyone or anything around them!

On the other hand, I'm always amazed when I'm in Spain, at all these little zebra crossing things in the most stupid places, right on junctions, etc. I hesitate so much to step out and just expect some poor driver to see round the blind corner and stop for me - yet they unfailingly do just that!
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
My personal hate is all the young ones who think they have the automatic right to cross the road, any place they like, right in front of a car. Many play chicken, looking right at you daring you not to stop, but today three young lads stepped right in front of me, and looked genuinely shocked as I kept on moving. It was clear they truly thought they had the right to go where they want with no heed for anyone or anything around them!

On the other hand, I'm always amazed when I'm in Spain, at all these little zebra crossing things in the most stupid places, right on junctions, etc. I hesitate so much to step out and just expect some poor driver to see round the blind corner and stop for me - yet they unfailingly do just that!
The zebra crossings in Spain are a nightmare, you can hardly see them as they fade in the sun and at night the roads are so shiny and they dont have belicha (sp?) beacons to alert anyone where they are

Coincidentally, my son (a nerd lol!!) was telling me of some lads he saw today. One crossed the road infront of a car without even looking. the driver had to do an emergency stop to avoid hitting him and the lad just banged on the car with his fist, swore at the driver and spat on the car!


Jo xxx
 

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The zebra crossings in Spain are a nightmare, you can hardly see them as they fade in the sun and at night the roads are so shiny and they dont have belicha (sp?) beacons to alert anyone where they are

Coincidentally, my son (a nerd lol!!) was telling me of some lads he saw today. One crossed the road infront of a car without even looking. the driver had to do an emergency stop to avoid hitting him and the lad just banged on the car with his fist, swore at the driver and spat on the car!


Jo xxx
Yeap, that's what many do here, too.

Part of you wants to keep driving and not give in to this behaviour - but another part is just too scared of what will happen to you or your car.
 

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It 's called 'jaywalking' . Run them over. I always had one hand on the air horns for them . In the 70's it was much less prevalent but on the occasions that it did happen we used to drive at them & chase them across the road ! :) The good old days. :rofl:
 

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What has happened in the UK since the mid-seventies is that society as we knew it no longer exists.
This isn't going to be an anti-Thatcher rant because New Labour operated with the same individualistic 'greed is good' philosophy.
The free market has fractured what social cohesion we had. Teenage pregnancies, divorce rates, substance abuse, crime rates....all have shot up dramatically (these are facts...you may argue over the causes but they are facts).
Our society has been subjected to a revolution in what is socially acceptable. Anyone flicking through tv channels including the BBC is subjected to explicit and unnecessary sexuality, violence and sheer crudity and bad taste. Words you once would have been fined for using in public are now commonly used by all manner of people on tv and radio.
Anyone who doesn't think this will be reflected in poor standards of public behaviour needs a reality check.
What upsets me most about these pathetic mouthy little chavs -children who have borne children - is their total lack of self-respect and dignity.
I was brought up by a widowed mother in a very low-income family. My childhood was experienced within a framework of prohibitions which at the time I found irksome. Now I truly pity children who are being brought up with no sense of private or public behaviour norms.
I used to chafe at the bit under the constant nagging about 'respectability' but when I became a parent I imposed those standards on my son who interestingly imposed them on his sons.
Thankfully.....
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
What has happened in the UK since the mid-seventies is that society as we knew it no longer exists.
This isn't going to be an anti-Thatcher rant because New Labour operated with the same individualistic 'greed is good' philosophy.
The free market has fractured what social cohesion we had. Teenage pregnancies, divorce rates, substance abuse, crime rates....all have shot up dramatically (these are facts...you may argue over the causes but they are facts).
Our society has been subjected to a revolution in what is socially acceptable. Anyone flicking through tv channels including the BBC is subjected to explicit and unnecessary sexuality, violence and sheer crudity and bad taste. Words you once would have been fined for using in public are now commonly used by all manner of people on tv and radio.
Anyone who doesn't think this will be reflected in poor standards of public behaviour needs a reality check.
What upsets me most about these pathetic mouthy little chavs -children who have borne children - is their total lack of self-respect and dignity.
I was brought up by a widowed mother in a very low-income family. My childhood was experienced within a framework of prohibitions which at the time I found irksome. Now I truly pity children who are being brought up with no sense of private or public behaviour norms.
I used to chafe at the bit under the constant nagging about 'respectability' but when I became a parent I imposed those standards on my son who interestingly imposed them on his sons.
Thankfully.....
So what is the answer???? these "mouthy young chavs" are breeding millions of mouthy young chavs. They're taking over and expecting handouts at every turn and are just like feral animals - Its horrible and frightening! Wheres it going to end???

Jo xxx
 

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So what is the answer???? these "mouthy young chavs" are breeding millions of mouthy young chavs. They're taking over and expecting handouts at every turn and are just like feral animals - Its horrible and frightening! Wheres it going to end???

Jo xxx

Maybe when our judicial system ceases to regard so-called 'low-level' crime as less worthy of harsh punishment than major property crimes?
When lawyers, judges etc. who normally live in leafy suburbs realise that for many less fortunate people, their lives are hell because of anti-social behaviour?
When education ceases to regard its primary function as the promotion of 'egalitarianism' and social engineering and begins to fulfil its true function of teaching literacy, numeracy and the skills and values needed to enable youngsters to be able to function in our changing world?
When social workers and their like stop blaming all social ills on 'society' or capitalism or some other chimera and begin to focus on personal responsibility and self-respect?
When we stop taking for granted the huge amount of gratutious violence, sex, poor taste in our media which serves to enrich the few at the expense of the degradation and dumbing down of society?

So probably....never.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Maybe when our judicial system ceases to regard so-called 'low-level' crime as less worthy of harsh punishment than major property crimes?
When lawyers, judges etc. who normally live in leafy suburbs realise that for many less fortunate people, their lives are hell because of anti-social behaviour?
When education ceases to regard its primary function as the promotion of 'egalitarianism' and social engineering and begins to fulfil its true function of teaching literacy, numeracy and the skills and values needed to enable youngsters to be able to function in our changing world?
When social workers and their like stop blaming all social ills on 'society' or capitalism or some other chimera and begin to focus on personal responsibility and self-respect?
When we stop taking for granted the huge amount of gratutious violence, sex, poor taste in our media which serves to enrich the few at the expense of the degradation and dumbing down of society?

So probably....never.
...... and meanwhile these people are breeding prolifically, while those who have to support them struggle to afford to have children. Its going to implode isnt it! Interesting times ahead - NOT!

Jo xxx
 

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I have just got back from one of the "rougher" cities in Southern England and I have to say that nothing much has changed from the last time I was there (or times before that).
For as long as I can remember, this was always a place where you watched your back and looked away when passing a gang of teenagers.
There have always been young mothers on benefits. Some are mouthy and ignorant, others are not.

What has changed, however, is hope.

The chavs of the past could find work (and mostly did, if only to support their love of designer label clothes and a fetish for tattoos and body piercings), but now there is very little work and very few prospects of finding work in the near future.
And that lack of hope can drag a whole society down, not just a small, noisy fraction.
 

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I have just got back from one of the "rougher" cities in Southern England and I have to say that nothing much has changed from the last time I was there (or times before that).
For as long as I can remember, this was always a place where you watched your back and looked away when passing a gang of teenagers.
There have always been young mothers on benefits. Some are mouthy and ignorant, others are not.

What has changed, however, is hope.

The chavs of the past could find work (and mostly did, if only to support their love of designer label clothes and a fetish for tattoos and body piercings), but now there is very little work and very few prospects of finding work in the near future.
And that lack of hope can drag a whole society down, not just a small, noisy fraction.
Yes, that is all true. But fifty years ago most young males could find skilled or semi-skilled work which gave them pride, status and a stake in society. Technological innovatiion has drastically curtailed the number of such jobs. That kind of work is unlikely to make a reappearance.

Add to that the fact that far too many of our young people leave school not only under-educated but lacking in any kind of preparation for the 'adult' world and you have a recipe for dissatisfaction.

Many of the changes that alter the shape of our society have come upon us as if we were asleep. People feel that things are being done 'to' them, that they have no say in how their lives will be.

That kind of climate of uncertainty and powerlessness is a factor leading to the rise of the hard right.
 

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Yes, that is all true. But fifty years ago most young males could find skilled or semi-skilled work which gave them pride, status and a stake in society. Technological innovatiion has drastically curtailed the number of such jobs. That kind of work is unlikely to make a reappearance.

Add to that the fact that far too many of our young people leave school not only under-educated but lacking in any kind of preparation for the 'adult' world and you have a recipe for dissatisfaction.

Many of the changes that alter the shape of our society have come upon us as if we were asleep. People feel that things are being done 'to' them, that they have no say in how their lives will be.

That kind of climate of uncertainty and powerlessness is a factor leading to the rise of the hard right.
Agreed :)

In the UK I watched the program on The 70's and the rise of the 'I have a right to it all' society. A bit biased in places, but interesting to watch.
 

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Agreed :)

In the UK I watched the program on The 70's and the rise of the 'I have a right to it all' society. A bit biased in places, but interesting to watch.

When I first started teaching in the seventies, 99% of my students' parents had skilled or semi-skilled jobs. The council estate where the school was situated and from which it took its pupils was neat, tidy and tranquil. Gardens were tended, children behaved, there was no feral youth. Our small town had a thriving industrial estate and we even had a morning and evening mini-rush hour.

All that changed in the early 1980s. The first sign was when dads started bringing younger children to the adjacent primary school. Very soon the estate began to slide slowly bit inexorably downhill. Family breakdown,anti-social behaviour, substance abuse, truancy, increase in teenage pregnancy all followed. I began attending funerals of young people who had overdosed, died in traffic accidents (often drink/drug-related) or even who had died as a result of violence.

Nearly all of the small/medium-sized manufacturing undustries closed down. Thousands were on the dole. Shops in the town centre closed for lack of customers. The town centre became a no-go area at night and not pleasant in the day with boarded up shop windows.

Then in the mid-2000s the town's population increased by almost one-third as immigrants from the former socialist bloc states arrived to work mainly in the food processing sector. This meant that local people saw wage rates drop sharply and seasonal job availability shrink. Surgeries,dental clinics and schools could not cope with the extra pressure. Schools in particular had to meet OFSTED target pressures whilst coping with new arrivals who spoke no English....no help available from the local education authority.

This town would fall like a ripe plum into the hands of a plausible BNP candidate. So far they haven't cottoned on....People I speak to on my rare return visits complain of lack of say in decision-making, in how their town has changed without them being consulted. They complain of Poles, Estonians etc. taking their jobs...and it is true.
These people are not racists - some are second or third generation AfroCaribbean or Asian Britons.

They are the sad, neglected 'cannon fodder' of twenty-first century Britain. No jobs, no hope, no future and no-one to speak for and with them.

I have always and will continue to blame Mrs. Thatcher for murdering what was a decent, hard-working community and Tony Blair for ignoring the plight of this and many more such communities.
 

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When I first started teaching in the seventies, 99% of my students' parents had skilled or semi-skilled jobs. The council estate where the school was situated and from which it took its pupils was neat, tidy and tranquil. Gardens were tended, children behaved, there was no feral youth. Our small town had a thriving industrial estate and we even had a morning and evening mini-rush hour.

All that changed in the early 1980s. The first sign was when dads started bringing younger children to the adjacent primary school. Very soon the estate began to slide slowly bit inexorably downhill. Family breakdown,anti-social behaviour, substance abuse, truancy, increase in teenage pregnancy all followed. I began attending funerals of young people who had overdosed, died in traffic accidents (often drink/drug-related) or even who had died as a result of violence.

Nearly all of the small/medium-sized manufacturing undustries closed down. Thousands were on the dole. Shops in the town centre closed for lack of customers. The town centre became a no-go area at night and not pleasant in the day with boarded up shop windows.

Then in the mid-2000s the town's population increased by almost one-third as immigrants from the former socialist bloc states arrived to work mainly in the food processing sector. This meant that local people saw wage rates drop sharply and seasonal job availability shrink. Surgeries,dental clinics and schools could not cope with the extra pressure. Schools in particular had to meet OFSTED target pressures whilst coping with new arrivals who spoke no English....no help available from the local education authority.

This town would fall like a ripe plum into the hands of a plausible BNP candidate. So far they haven't cottoned on....People I speak to on my rare return visits complain of lack of say in decision-making, in how their town has changed without them being consulted. They complain of Poles, Estonians etc. taking their jobs...and it is true.
These people are not racists - some are second or third generation AfroCaribbean or Asian Britons.

They are the sad, neglected 'cannon fodder' of twenty-first century Britain. No jobs, no hope, no future and no-one to speak for and with them.

I have always and will continue to blame Mrs. Thatcher for murdering what was a decent, hard-working community and Tony Blair for ignoring the plight of this and many more such communities.
The city I spent most of my life in was always a low pay area, because of the local industry. In fact, I always thought that the whole city could have been transported up North and would have fitted right in. :)

But, as you say, in the 70s nearly everyone could find a job. And that included women as well as men.
It all changed sometime during the 80s, when local industries began to close and many families ended up having the wife as the main breadwinner (because low paid, insecure work which many women are forced to take is the last to go).

Now the local job centre forces the unemployed onto 'training schemes' which provide no hope of employment. These are often presented by people who have themselves been long term unemployed and have no hope of other work if the training schemes end. And it is still many more men than women who are unable to find work (although it isn't easy for anyone now).

People there also complain about Poles taking all the jobs, but it is mainly said half heartedly, as I think that most people realise that those jobs would probably not be available to them if the Poles were not there.

To be honest, I'm not so sure that the BNP would make a radical rise in that area, unless by default on a low turnout, because most people just don't bother to vote anymore.
Apathy reigns supreme. :(
 

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The city I spent most of my life in was always a low pay area, because of the local industry. In fact, I always thought that the whole city could have been transported up North and would have fitted right in. :)

But, as you say, in the 70s nearly everyone could find a job. And that included women as well as men.
It all changed sometime during the 80s, when local industries began to close and many families ended up having the wife as the main breadwinner (because low paid, insecure work which many women are forced to take is the last to go).

Now the local job centre forces the unemployed onto 'training schemes' which provide no hope of employment. These are often presented by people who have themselves been long term unemployed and have no hope of other work if the training schemes end. And it is still many more men than women who are unable to find work (although it isn't easy for anyone now).

People there also complain about Poles taking all the jobs, but it is mainly said half heartedly, as I think that most people realise that those jobs would probably not be available to them if the Poles were not there.

To be honest, I'm not so sure that the BNP would make a radical rise in that area, unless by default on a low turnout, because most people just don't bother to vote anymore.
Apathy reigns supreme. :(
I lived in a very low-wage area too. But Poles, Portuguese and other EU migrant workers did take seasonal jobs that local women had relied on to supplement their meagre family income. One local factory made a whole shift redundant, changed the job description and took on 100% migrant workers at lower wages. T&G as it then was tried to take the case to a tribunal but got nowhere.
The Maastricht Treaty with its free movement of people, goods and capital is a free marketeer's dream. Just think about what free movement o0f capital lead to in Greece with its profligate government borrowing and in Spain where individuals and companies took advantage to create a huge construction and debt bubble.
Free movement of capital and goods has lead to the destruction of many domestic industries as companies have relocated production to low cost EU states such as the former COMECON states -although some of them are now catching up where wages are concerned.
I'm no UKIP supporter -I think they are a bunch of Little Englanders - but the EU in its current form is no friend of working people or those on fixed retirement incomes.
 

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I lived in a very low-wage area too. But Poles, Portuguese and other EU migrant workers did take seasonal jobs that local women had relied on to supplement their meagre family income. One local factory made a whole shift redundant, changed the job description and took on 100% migrant workers at lower wages. T&G as it then was tried to take the case to a tribunal but got nowhere.
The Maastricht Treaty with its free movement of people, goods and capital is a free marketeer's dream. Just think about what free movement o0f capital lead to in Greece with its profligate government borrowing and in Spain where individuals and companies took advantage to create a huge construction and debt bubble.
Free movement of capital and goods has lead to the destruction of many domestic industries as companies have relocated production to low cost EU states such as the former COMECON states -although some of them are now catching up where wages are concerned.
I'm no UKIP supporter -I think they are a bunch of Little Englanders - but the EU in its current form is no friend of working people or those on fixed retirement incomes.
Agreed :)
 

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I am currently very fearful for the future of Europe, as are very many European citizens.
Whilst I'm pleased at Hollande's victory in France, I can see scant chance of success for any measures he may introduce to promote growth....unless of course he goes the 'traditional' growth-promoting way of scrapping labour laws which may well create jobs but at a cost.
He has to bear the responsibility of meeting people's hopes and expectations, a huge burden to bear.
Meanwhile, Marine Le Pen is feasting like a vulture on the carcase of Sarkozy's UMP. My fear is that she will create a large and influential hard-right party by merging her Front National with disaffected UMP members and will be poised to pick up votes from disappointed Hollande supporters if he fails to deliver.
 

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I am currently very fearful for the future of Europe, as are very many European citizens.
Whilst I'm pleased at Hollande's victory in France, I can see scant chance of success for any measures he may introduce to promote growth....unless of course he goes the 'traditional' growth-promoting way of scrapping labour laws which may well create jobs but at a cost.
He has to bear the responsibility of meeting people's hopes and expectations, a huge burden to bear.
Meanwhile, Marine Le Pen is feasting like a vulture on the carcase of Sarkozy's UMP. My fear is that she will create a large and influential hard-right party by merging her Front National with disaffected UMP members and will be poised to pick up votes from disappointed Hollande supporters if he fails to deliver.
My fears as well.
And looking at France's 20th century history (although admittedly under different circumstances), the concept of a far right party taking power in France (and playing on similar prejudices as before) is not that hard to imagine.
 
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