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There is a pdf document issued by the EU, Google, The rights of UK citizens under the Withdrawal Agreement 2.16, it's a PDF doc and that point 2.16 explains it clearly.

I'm not bothered about the 2 year 5 year thing as I don't intend long term absences.
 

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Your Google reference brings up nothing useful, if you have a link why not just post it?

e.g. Withdrawal Agreement explainer for part 2: citizens’ rights

From which I quote:

"14. Those who have not yet resided continuously and lawfully for five years in
their host state by the end of the transition period will also be able to stay until
they have reached the five year threshold, at which point they will qualify for
the right to reside permanently. Until this five year threshold has been met,
continuity of residence in the host state will be broken by a period or periods
of more than six months in total in any 12-month period.
One absence lasting
a maximum of 12 consecutive months for an important reason, such as
pregnancy and childbirth, serious illness, study, vocational training or a
posting abroad is permitted."

End quote.

For those who have, or had, a green residencia their residency commenced on the date that was issued, for those first acquiring residency by applying for a TIE it's the date on that which will be the date you went for your first appointment and had your fingerprints taken.

Those applying for residency as 3rd country nationals are subject to the 10 month cumulative rule.

It's 6 months in a calendar year, so starting 1st January.
The "six months in total in any 12-month period" in the above conclusively proves that is not so.
 

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Your Google reference brings up nothing useful, if you have a link why not just post it?

e.g. Withdrawal Agreement explainer for part 2: citizens’ rights

From which I quote:

"14. Those who have not yet resided continuously and lawfully for five years in
their host state by the end of the transition period will also be able to stay until
they have reached the five year threshold, at which point they will qualify for
the right to reside permanently. Until this five year threshold has been met,
continuity of residence in the host state will be broken by a period or periods
of more than six months in total in any 12-month period.
One absence lasting
a maximum of 12 consecutive months for an important reason, such as
pregnancy and childbirth, serious illness, study, vocational training or a
posting abroad is permitted."

End quote.

For those who have, or had, a green residencia their residency commenced on the date that was issued, for those first acquiring residency by applying for a TIE it's the date on that which will be the date you went for your first appointment and had your fingerprints taken.

Those applying for residency as 3rd country nationals are subject to the 10 month cumulative rule.


The "six months in total in any 12-month period" in the above conclusively proves that is not so.
It says, if broken by a period of more than 6 months, therefore if under 6 months per year, then that is allowed. In your last sentence, you conveniently left out the more than 6 months.

"Until this five year threshold has been met,
continuity of residence in the host state will be broken by a period or periods
of more than six months in total in any 12-month period"
 

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What's the practical effect of an absence of more than 6 months, if you have a temporary TIE issued under the withdrawal agreement? Is it the case that the absences are tallied up when the card expires in 5 years (i.e. when you attempt to renew it for a permanent residence) - or does your immigration status as a resident of Spain lapse automatically on the first day after your accumulated six months absence (and therefore you should probably stop using you TIE at the border if visiting again) ?

We're in this exact situation - we've lived in Spain in our holiday home since June last year, working our UK jobs remotely in the pandemic, and applied for and got TIEs as was required. This is all coming to an end now as normality returns so we'll definitely be spending more than six months a year out of Spain going forward.
 

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What's the practical effect of an absence of more than 6 months, if you have a temporary TIE issued under the withdrawal agreement? Is it the case that the absences are tallied up when the card expires in 5 years (i.e. when you attempt to renew it for a permanent residence) - or does your immigration status as a resident of Spain lapse automatically on the first day after your accumulated six months absence (and therefore you should probably stop using you TIE at the border if visiting again) ?

We're in this exact situation - we've lived in Spain in our holiday home since June last year, working our UK jobs remotely in the pandemic, and applied for and got TIEs as was required. This is all coming to an end now as normality returns so we'll definitely be spending more than six months a year out of Spain going forward.
The second. So after you are away from Spain for 6 months, your TIE lapses and you can only return as visitor (90-in-180 days visa-free) or have to take out a suitable long-stay visa. The question is will the Spanish authorities find out about your status? Like on most immigration matters, it's question of whether you can demonstrate you are still a Spanish resident, and not for them to show you you aren't. Currently, even scanning your passport, no record is kept of your movement in and out of Schengen (we have to wait till the introduction of ETIAS expected sometime in 2022). If your absence is just over the 6-month mark, you can probably return as resident, taking such evidence as property deeds, tax payment, utility bills etc in case they ask. Clearly it will be more difficult if your absence runs into a year or more.
 

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What's the practical effect of an absence of more than 6 months, if you have a temporary TIE issued under the withdrawal agreement? Is it the case that the absences are tallied up when the card expires in 5 years (i.e. when you attempt to renew it for a permanent residence) - or does your immigration status as a resident of Spain lapse automatically on the first day after your accumulated six months absence (and therefore you should probably stop using you TIE at the border if visiting again) ?

We're in this exact situation - we've lived in Spain in our holiday home since June last year, working our UK jobs remotely in the pandemic, and applied for and got TIEs as was required. This is all coming to an end now as normality returns so we'll definitely be spending more than six months a year out of Spain going forward.
I dont actually think anyone can give you a definitive answer.
The 'rules' are clear, but until you get to the point of swapping temp to perm on your TIE, you (and most of us who have the TIE as a result of the WA) will only find out at that point. (in 5 years time).
Spanish bureaucracy being what it is, the outcome is anyones guess.

Many people are going to be in similar situations as yours, being 'stuck' here and 'having' to become resident, but not actually wanting to be. My neighbour is in a similar situation, he had an accident that prevented him from traveling, so he became resident.
He has no intention of moving here permanently but has intimated that he will use the TIE as a 'get out of jail' free card to spend more than 90 days here. I hope he is found out, but cannot see how, unless your TIE is swiped on the way out and in, and this is then recorded.

Likewise you could have a Spanish TIE and pop across the border to France etc for a couple of years and apart from all your bank transactions being in French shops, there is nothing saying you left Spain.
 

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Exactly - I think in all likelihood we would never run into wanting to spend more than 90 days in 180 going forward, assuming we both retain our jobs in the UK and the pandemic wanes. The TIE for us was a bit of a blessing since it enabled us to sit out the UK's winter lockdown somewhere more pleasant, but obviously we don't want to fall foul of any rules going forward, particularly since we'll want to retire to Spain for real in 3 years's time. At this point we accept that we'll either have to move house in Spain to trigger the Golden Visa or more likely get the non-lucrative temporary permit and stay put in Spain for 5 years.

If only Brexit had happened a few years later (or I was 3 years older!) the WA TIE would have all worked out neatly for retirement, but there you go!
 

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Just so people know Spain can track your whereabouts. I am being investigated by the Hacienda at this moment. They sent a black letter with a list of my 2016 income in UK, employer name/ address, my bank statements, rents etc. I phoned the UK tax and they claimed that they didn't provide the information!. Either way I am not worried as I have proof I was less than 183 days and paid tax in UK for that year. Either way it proves they can easily track you.
 

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Just so people know Spain can track your whereabouts. I am being investigated by the Hacienda at this moment. They sent a black letter with a list of my 2016 income in UK, employer name/ address, my bank statements, rents etc. I phoned the UK tax and they claimed that they didn't provide the information!. Either way I am not worried as I have proof I was less than 183 days and paid tax in UK for that year. Either way it proves they can easily track you.
But thats for tax, hopefully all government departments 'talk' to each other. If so, then it should be fairly easy to be found out.
However Im not too sure that there is that level of communication in Spain, nor across the EU. Could be wrong, but its not worth trying to see if its true.

As to the investigation by Hacienda, when we moved over late August, the solicitor we used told me to keep all my paperwork for 2020. I also made sure I had no income for the remaining months here.
I started 2021 both physically and financially resident in Spain. (though I will be reclaiming my tax back for 2020 from the Uk later this year)

Anyway back to the thread. Once the ETIAS system is up and running, this should flag up people who are in the wrong place and with the wrong paperwork.
Ive been stopped at passport control going into Canada as I had an electronic temp work visa and was sent to the immigration desk. Same in Australia and the US. The Canadian one was in 2018 and it took 4 hours and many phone calls to confirm my visit (and I had all the paperwork etc).
 

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Surely the stamping of the passport would be a record of movements.

We arrived on the 18th after settling all our stuff up in the UK since December, so as far as the tax goes we have an appointment with a Spanish tax advisor next Tuesday to start the ball rolling with that, currently income is taxed at source in the UK, occupational pension and a rental, which has literally just commenced today.
 

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I'm an EU citizen, does that make a difference? Plus under the WA my wife is allowed up to 6 months every year i believe.
That's correct.

If your wife has a TIE issued under the WA she can leave for 6 months in each twelve for the first 5 years.

Which is how it works for EU citizens, too.
 

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Is there an un-TIE-ing process? Given we probably won't be wanting to be (or in fact able) to be in Spain for more than 90/180 for the foreseeable, part of me wonders whether hanging on to it (temporary, expiring in a little under 5 years) is a bit of a liability. Our financial footprint in Spain is pretty minimal - a current account with a few hundred euros in it, topped up to pay the utility bills - we work for UK companies and are well under the 183 days per year. However I guess it's theoretically possible that the tax office could spring the dreaded black letter on us while we're back in London and unable to do anything about it, if having a TIE and not submitting tax returns by itself looks sufficiently anomalous. The law would seem to put us clearly as UK tax residents but you do read all these horror stories on ex-pat forums...
 

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Is there an un-TIE-ing process? Given we probably won't be wanting to be (or in fact able) to be in Spain for more than 90/180 for the foreseeable, part of me wonders whether hanging on to it (temporary, expiring in a little under 5 years) is a bit of a liability. Our financial footprint in Spain is pretty minimal - a current account with a few hundred euros in it, topped up to pay the utility bills - we work for UK companies and are well under the 183 days per year. However I guess it's theoretically possible that the tax office could spring the dreaded black letter on us while we're back in London and unable to do anything about it, if having a TIE and not submitting tax returns by itself looks sufficiently anomalous. The law would seem to put us clearly as UK tax residents but you do read all these horror stories on ex-pat forums...
In your position I would sign off the padron, which would indicate that you're no longer habitually resident in Spain. Continuing to submit non-resident tax forms would also indicate that you spend less than 183 days in Spain. You will also have to declare to your Spanish bank that you are non-resident every 2 years.

I would also ensure that your UK passport is stamped when you exit & enter Spain and that your UK & Spanish bank accounts reflect that you spend longer than 183 days outside Spain. Your passport & accounts should be sufficient to prove that you are not tax resident in Spain. You could hand your TIE card back but I would hang onto it in case your circumstances change.
Spanish tax is paid 1 year in arrears and the hacienda are currently investigating tax from 4 years ago. Trying to renew your temporary TIE at the 5 year point could lead to some awkward questions if you are not tax resident by then.
 

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Yes I was thinking about doing exactly that - signing off the padron should be relatively quick and is also easily reversible if circumstances change. We do the non-resident imputed income tax thing dilligently every year - I guess if one had a TIE/padron and was not submitting any sort of tax return it would look pretty fishy from the hacienda's standpoint.
 

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If you have recently applied for and have a TIE then you will most likely be judged to have made Spain you place of financial interest and could be pursued for tax on your whole UK income for the year you applied for your TIE ( Jan-Dec). I am being chased for tax for a whole year despite only being 90 days in spain, no residency applied for and all tax paid in UK. So you may flag up something: you have clearly intended to make Spain your base as you have the TIE. So you will probably be expected to make a tax return in Spain for either this whole year ( Jan- Dec 2021) or you should have done one for the previous year but you can not escape tax for the time you were here.
 

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If the "OP" is submitting non-resident tax returns (modelo 210 I think) then he shouldn't need to submit a modelo 30 to "de-register" as a tax resident. That would ring all kinds of alarm bells I imagine.

But I agree, it looks very strange having a TIE while submitting non-resident tax returns. He is a resident as far as extranjería is concercned but not as far as hacienda is concerned. They don't seem to communicate much but I would be expecting soem questions at some point.

I returned to Spain in August 2016 and submitted non-resident tax returns during the whole tax year, starting as a tax resident only in 2017. This was on the advice of one of the big worldwide accountancy and tax advisory firms, one everybody has heard of. But I still think it was questionable advice and am expecting a letter to drop on my mat shortly!
 

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If you have ever submitted a modelo 100 then ypu will be seen as a tax resident. I think the modelo 30 deregisters you as a tax resident. The padron wont really do alot for the Hacienda. You basically need to establish your residency in UK and be over 183 days there from the beginning of january 2022 and pay all taxes in UK.That is the only way you will be sure that hacienda wont pursue you. If you have recently applied for and have a TIE then you will most likely be judged to have made Spain you place of financial interest and could be pursued for tax on your whole UK income for the year you applied for your TIE ( Jan-Dec). I am being chased for tax for a whole year despite only being 90 days in spain, no residency applied for and all tax paid in UK. So you see how it might work for you.
I guess the difference in your situation, if I read it correctly above, is that you stayed on in Spain in the years following your initial 90 day stay and paid your taxes for those years, so what they're arguing is that your intention to stay permanently was demonstrated by this, and they're saying that this intent started the year before when you were there for 90 days, am I right? InOur situation's a bit different because we'd be going back and not spending so much time in Spain, visiting mainly for short breaks and paying taxes in the UK and clearly under the 183 all the time. We filed a Modelo 030 setting us up as nonresident when we bought our place a few years ago but have just filed the non-resident property tax return each year. It sounds, though, from your experience that if we do move to Spain for real and start paying taxes, we probably want to start in January!
 

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If the "OP" is submitting non-resident tax returns (modelo 210 I think) then he shouldn't need to submit a modelo 30 to "de-register" as a tax resident. That would ring all kinds of alarm bells I imagine.

But I agree, it looks very strange having a TIE while submitting non-resident tax returns. He is a resident as far as extranjería is concercned but not as far as hacienda is concerned. They don't seem to communicate much but I would be expecting soem questions at some point.

I returned to Spain in August 2016 and submitted non-resident tax returns during the whole tax year, starting as a tax resident only in 2017. This was on the advice of one of the big worldwide accountancy and tax advisory firms, one everybody has heard of. But I still think it was questionable advice and am expecting a letter to drop on my mat shortly!
We submitted a Modelo 030 a couple of years back to get us into the tax system, but as non-residents - without the 030 we wouldn't have been able to submit our non-resident Modelo 210s.

It's an interesting point though on the TIE, but this is presumably not a completely uncommon situation - for example people with golden visas who spend a few months of the summer in Spain (though perhaps having enough money to be eligible for a golden visa in itself would be enough to have the tax man sniffing around!)
 

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Your problem is that you shouldnt have registered for a TIE. I cant see why you would do that and then carry on paying non-resident taxes. It will look like you are hiding things. You are telling the tax man you dont live in spain and dont have spain as your central place of resident but then you are telling immigration you are a resident. You cant have it both ways and I imagine they will expect you to declare all your worldwide income for the year you received your TIEs. The fact that you have a property and register as non resident means that you could face investigation in the future. If you had no property in spain you might escape them.
 

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If the "OP" is submitting non-resident tax returns (modelo 210 I think) then he shouldn't need to submit a modelo 30 to "de-register" as a tax resident. That would ring all kinds of alarm bells I imagine.

But I agree, it looks very strange having a TIE while submitting non-resident tax returns. He is a resident as far as extranjería is concercned but not as far as hacienda is concerned. They don't seem to communicate much but I would be expecting soem questions at some point.

I returned to Spain in August 2016 and submitted non-resident tax returns during the whole tax year, starting as a tax resident only in 2017. This was on the advice of one of the big worldwide accountancy and tax advisory firms, one everybody has heard of. But I still think it was questionable advice and am expecting a letter to drop on my mat shortly!
Exactly the same as me except I was in October and I also delayed residency until start of Jan 2017. Also also I did this on the advice of a reputable tax firm dealing in UK expats moving to spain!!!
 
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