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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
We are now back and forward between the UK and Spain as we have had to delay our move due to FiL being ill with dementia. I was always led to believe that if you spend 183 days in Spain in a tax year you are liable to pay tax in Spain but now I've been informed it has to be 183 days consecutively , which will certainly make things easier if we do go over the 183 days.
 

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It's definitely cumulative.

Where did the information that it's consecutive come from Roy C?
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 · (Edited)

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Wow - that's the first & only time I've ever heard that!

ADVOCO - also considered to be reliable, take the same stance as Blevins

Do you need to submit a Spanish tax return?

Situation 1 : I am not sure whether I am resident or not

The vast majority of people know whether they are resident or non-resident just from common sense. We divide into those people that live here year round and those who have a holiday home in Spain that they visit from time to time. The former are tax resident in Spain and the latter non-resident, though owners of Spanish property still have to file a tax return (Form 210 – click for details).

For a small number of people however there is room for debate. For example they split their time between two countries or work abroad a lot. The basic rule applied to determine residency is the 183 days rule: if an individual spends this amount of time or more in Spain during a calendar year then he or she is tax resident.

If you split your time fairly evenly between two countries, the authorities in both countries could potentially examine your affairs to make an assessment of residency. They will look at such things as where your property, investments, business and employment are located. You will certainly need to be tax resident in one of the countries.

You may also be considered resident in Spain if you stay within the 183 day limit but other factors indicate it is your main base. For example if your spouse and family live in Spain then the onus will be on you to prove residency elsewhere, however short a time you spend in Spain.
other situations are also given

The Spanish tax office also says that it's 183 days in a calendar year - nothing about consecutive

Persona física residente en España - Agencia Tributaria

Una persona física es residente en territorio español cuando se dé cualquiera de las siguientes circunstancias:
Que permanezca más de 183 días, durante el año natural, en territorio español. Para determinar este período de permanencia en territorio español se computarán las ausencias esporádicas salvo que el contribuyente acredite su residencia fiscal en otro país. En el supuesto de países o territorios de los calificados como paraíso fiscal, la Administración tributaria podrá exigir que se pruebe la permanencia en el mismo durante 183 días en el año natural.
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Spain might say one think but if it is not compliant with EU Law they can't enforce it. My quotes come from a barrister who was an adviser to the European Commission and also the link is from the EC officially.
 

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Spain might say one think but if it is not compliant with EU Law they can't enforce it. My quotes come from a barrister who was an adviser to the European Commission and also the link is from the EC officially.
It's the same in the UK though - 6 months of the year, not necessarily consecutive, & you're tax resident. I think it's the same in any EU country

edit: I've just looked at a few of the other countries & those I looked at say 'in a calendar year' or 'in a tax year'

I suspect it's either a typo or a bad translation
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
It's the same in the UK though - 6 months of the year, not necessarily consecutive, & you're tax resident. I think it's the same in any EU country

edit: I've just looked at a few of the other countries & those I looked at say 'in a calendar year' or 'in a tax year'

I suspect it's either a typo or a bad translation
I don't think it is a translation and I would be surprised if it wasn't correct but anyway we can all doubt.
 

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As for it being an EU thing - I doubt it. France has particular requirements re tax residency and 183 days (consecutive or not) has nothing to do with it here. I would be very wary, especially since the view put forward could arguably make you tax resident nowhere - AFAIK that is quite simply not on either within or generally outside the EU.
 

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As for it being an EU thing - I doubt it. France has particular requirements re tax residency and 183 days (consecutive or not) has nothing to do with it here. I would be very wary, especially since the view put forward could arguably make you tax resident nowhere - AFAIK that is quite simply not on either within or generally outside the EU.
As does Spain. The 183 days is just one category - it's possible to be tax resident here even if you spend more time out of the country than in, if various other scenarios come into play
 

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Spain might say one think but if it is not compliant with EU Law they can't enforce it. My quotes come from a barrister who was an adviser to the European Commission and also the link is from the EC officially.
Well, firstly it doesn't work like that. There are two aspects to EU law, primary legislation which is the treaties between the members, and secondary which are the directives and regulations etc. With regard to taxation the EU role is merely

"to oversee national tax rules – to ensure they are consistent with certain EU policies, such as:

promoting economic growth and job creation
ensuring the free flow of goods, services and capital around the EU (in the single market)
making sure businesses in one country don't have an unfair advantage over competitors in another
ensuring taxes don't discriminate against consumers, workers or businesses from other EU countries.
Furthermore, EU decisions on tax matters require unanimous agreement by all member governments. This ensures that the interests of every single EU country are taken into account."

There is no primary EU legislation concerning income tax, as it is the responsibility of the country, nor is there any secondary legislation,

So, if the Spanish rules were not in accord with the legislation, so for example discriminatory, then the process is that they ask the country to change it, and if they don't then they are taken to the ECJ. A recent example of this was the legislation concerning inheritance tax. In the meantime, following any ruling you need to follow the tax legislation.

Secondly the Spanish tax legislation is quite clear, so I'm not sure how the EU information site has translated it incorrectly :

1. Se entenderá que el contribuyente tiene su residencia habitual en territorio español cuando se dé cualquiera de las siguientes circunstancias:

a) Que permanezca más de 183 días, durante el año natural, en territorio español. Para determinar este período de permanencia en territorio español se computarán las ausencias esporádicas, salvo que el contribuyente acredite su residencia fiscal en otro país.
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
Well, firstly it doesn't work like that. There are two aspects to EU law, primary legislation which is the treaties between the members, and secondary which are the directives and regulations etc. With regard to taxation the EU role is merely

"to oversee national tax rules – to ensure they are consistent with certain EU policies, such as:

promoting economic growth and job creation
ensuring the free flow of goods, services and capital around the EU (in the single market)
making sure businesses in one country don't have an unfair advantage over competitors in another
ensuring taxes don't discriminate against consumers, workers or businesses from other EU countries.
Furthermore, EU decisions on tax matters require unanimous agreement by all member governments. This ensures that the interests of every single EU country are taken into account."

There is no primary EU legislation concerning income tax, as it is the responsibility of the country, nor is there any secondary legislation,

So, if the Spanish rules were not in accord with the legislation, so for example discriminatory, then the process is that they ask the country to change it, and if they don't then they are taken to the ECJ. A recent example of this was the legislation concerning inheritance tax. In the meantime, following any ruling you need to follow the tax legislation.

Secondly the Spanish tax legislation is quite clear, so I'm not sure how the EU information site has translated it incorrectly :

1. Se entenderá que el contribuyente tiene su residencia habitual en territorio español cuando se dé cualquiera de las siguientes circunstancias:

a) Que permanezca más de 183 días, durante el año natural, en territorio español. Para determinar este período de permanencia en territorio español se computarán las ausencias esporádicas, salvo que el contribuyente acredite su residencia fiscal en otro país.


Is that up to date as you can see with the document I linked from the EU it was recently updated July 31st to include consecutive days.
 

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Secondly the Spanish tax legislation is quite clear, so I'm not sure how the EU information site has translated it incorrectly :

1. Se entenderá que el contribuyente tiene su residencia habitual en territorio español cuando se dé cualquiera de las siguientes circunstancias:

a) Que permanezca más de 183 días, durante el año natural, en territorio español. Para determinar este período de permanencia en territorio español se computarán las ausencias esporádicas, salvo que el contribuyente acredite su residencia fiscal en otro país.
[/B]

Is that up to date as you can see with the document I linked from the EU it was recently updated July 31st to include consecutive days.
It's from the current tax legislation. The last revisions were dated 21st January 2017. Any changes are made with effect from the day following publication in the BOE.
 

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Open tothe floor

Having read this thread, I'm going to take this opportunity to ask for advice on what I should do - all advice gratefully received

Moved with family - wife (not working due to illness but hoping to do so again) and 2 kids (both registered and due to start primary school in Spain) - back in June.

Plan was to be here for a minimum of 1 year to enable the children to learn the language/help wife's health/enjoy the cultural immersion. Signed an initial 12 month rental.

Initial thoughts are we want to stay for longer, possibly permanent.

We have NIE/Padron both of which we did immediately.

I work in the telecoms industry and am paid in the UK on PAYE basis.

My employer doesn't have a Spanish entity but is willing to set up whatever is required to have me employed in Spain.

So my questions

- when/how should I look to transfer tax residency?
- any advice on selling our home in the UK?
- the likes of Blevins Franks seem to be recommended but apart from equity in UK property, we have very little in the way of wealth for them to manage but finding someone who can help with tax issues UK/Spain is hard based on initial research

As it stands I don't think I need to rush anything. We have 9 months left on our rental contract, Brexit will play out and impact will become clearer in the coming months and from what I understand I don't need to declare anything in Spain until June 2018.

Thanks

KG
 

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Having read this thread, I'm going to take this opportunity to ask for advice on what I should do - all advice gratefully received

Moved with family - wife (not working due to illness but hoping to do so again) and 2 kids (both registered and due to start primary school in Spain) - back in June.

Plan was to be here for a minimum of 1 year to enable the children to learn the language/help wife's health/enjoy the cultural immersion. Signed an initial 12 month rental.

Initial thoughts are we want to stay for longer, possibly permanent.

We have NIE/Padron both of which we did immediately.

I work in the telecoms industry and am paid in the UK on PAYE basis.

My employer doesn't have a Spanish entity but is willing to set up whatever is required to have me employed in Spain.

So my questions

- when/how should I look to transfer tax residency?
- any advice on selling our home in the UK?
- the likes of Blevins Franks seem to be recommended but apart from equity in UK property, we have very little in the way of wealth for them to manage but finding someone who can help with tax issues UK/Spain is hard based on initial research

As it stands I don't think I need to rush anything. We have 9 months left on our rental contract, Brexit will play out and impact will become clearer in the coming months and from what I understand I don't need to declare anything in Spain until June 2018.

Thanks

KG
Well that's a pretty tall order for giving advice KG, no doubt the FAQ stickers on this forum will answer the most common
questions that arise when first moving to Spain.

Although the most useful advice is:

1. Don't close any of your existing UK bank accounts, credit cards etc. All of them will happily accept a Spanish address
and you can also continue to manage these accounts online from Spain.

The reasons are obvious - once you start receiving your Pension, the Pension provider will only pay into a British bank
account.
As the opening of any new UK banks accounts and credit cards are restricted to UK residents only ( with the obvious exception
of the Basic bank account - although Basic means Basic for such accounts ) besides you will no doubt still be
returning to the UK, from time to time to visit friends and family.

While living in Spain, you can decide ( at your leisure ) which cards and UK accounts, you really need to retain or close.

2. If for any reason you need to seek the help of an Independent Financial Adviser in the UK ( while your still legally
UK resident with a UK address in Britain ) DO IT NOW as IFA's wouldn't touch you with a barge pole once your non
resident UK or will charge greatly inflated prices for their advice when they do so.

No doubt if you have Pension's or Pension pots held in previous employers pension schemes and your undecided as
to whether to leave it be or consolidate them into a SIPP or an overseas QROPS Pension scheme.
Then FCA rules stipulate that you must prove that you have sought IFA advice first before being allowed to
transfer amounts ( over 35k ) out or any company pension schemes, particularly the Defined Final Salary ones.

3. If your decide to retain property in the UK or rent it out, no doubt you might need to consider re-mortgaging
before leaving the UK - as again lenders quibble about lending to non UK residents.

Finally sorry if my useful advice doesn't include the questions you asked in your post but there again, I find that this
comes out top of the - I regret not doing this before I left the UK list.
 
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