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State of politics in Spain

16K views 89 replies 13 participants last post by  mrypg9 
#1 ·
Not sure if anyone is keeping up with the political news in Spain but honestly what is happening? Pablo Inglesias and a POSE minister have received bullets in the post with threatening letters. VOX refuses to condemn the actions and on a TV debate Inglesias has just stormed off after VOX have claimed that it is set up by the left to discredit the right. Honestly is this how a modern democracy should be behaving?
 
#2 ·
Yes I follow it closely, but tend to avoid talking about it on this forum. The infighting is deeply depressing but nothing new I'm afraid. Frankly I'm amazed the Sánchez government, which depends on the support of so many minority parties, manages to get any legislation through at all,. But they are doing pretty well considering (IMO).
 
#4 ·
Alcalaina - is there a good forum you can recommend that does discuss Spanish politics without devolving into a left or right bias? I'd love to find one so I can keep up with that a little easier. We're watching what's happening as we plan to move (still 3 or so years out).

Thanks,

--Henry
 
#6 ·
Not really, I tend to have such discussions "live" or with friends on Facebook. Forums tend to attract extremists because of their anonymity. A good way to follow what's going on is via online newspapers - El País (middle of the road) has articles in English, El Diario is my preference as it is more critical - if you don't read Spanish you can run it through a translator.
 
#5 ·
Its impossible to discuss politics without having a bias, everyone has and is entitled to an opinion.

Vox are entitled to not condemn actions, and Podemos are entited to withdraw from debates. Howe each of those acts affects their campaigns is a different issue, but I think there will be quite a few smug and content Vox supporters today.

At least in Spain the left / right divide is real and tangible. There was a moment in British politics that Labour and Tory were virtually indistinguishable.
 
#8 ·
*castellano ;)

I'd love to find a forum that hosted political specific discussions without allowing the devolving into chaos.
Especially given the modern climate of "everyone that disagrees with me is evil and must be destroyed no matter how much I have to mangle the truth", I don't know if a forum on the internet that is open to the public could ever meet that standard. Every internet discussion that is open to the public, especially anonymously, will eventually prove Godwin's Law.

If you just want hearty debate, surely Spain has roundtable discussion on news programs? At least those would be named professionals.
 
#9 ·
Personally, I feel it is extraordinary that some people can choose to live in a country where they feel they have no need to inform themselves about the political life of said country. I know people will disagree vehemently about this in the same way they do about language but for me it denotes a lazy lethargic approach to life. I believe you have a social responsibility to engage in democracy. Political instability, corruption, persecution arise when citizens fail to scrutinise those in power. Democracy for Spain was hard won and many suffered to bring it about. Now it is taken for granted and it's easy to see how it is starting to slip away as political debate descends into Friday's fiasco which for all intents and purposes became a TV moment more similar to a prensa rosa program than a serious debate
 
#10 ·
But these people would be the same wherever they live. If they bother to vote at all, they make their decisions on the basis of personalities (or rather, how those personalities are presented by the media), not the political ideology of the parties.

Sadly I think this trend of personality politics has emerged in Spain over the last few years. The transition to democracy happened over forty years ago and people have short memories - either that or they look on the last two decades of the Franco regime as "the good old days" of stability and prosperity.

I know people whose fundamental values are socialist to the core but they believe Pablo Iglesias is the devil incarnate because of the Vox propaganda on social media. Not dissimilar to what happened with Jeremy Corbyn in the UK.

For those who didn't see the TV interview you mentioned earlier, the Vox candidate cast doubt on the fact that Podemos candidates had received bullets through the post and refused to condemn the death threats. The Podemos leader left the debate, saying that "the extreme right should not be whitewashed like this" (i.e. the interview should have been handled better by the moderator). Two other candidates walked out shortly afterwards and the debate was terminated.

I vaguely recalled similar situations in the UK with mainstream politicians refusing to share a platform with UKIP candidates, and leftist politicians get death threats on Twitter all the time, especially if they are female. So perhaps the state of democracy in the two countries isn't that different.

It's possible that Vox's tactics will persuade more people to come out and vote against them on 4 May - we can only hope.
 
#11 · (Edited)
I am no longer interested in politics on forums simply because it always turns into a fascist right v leftwing looney debate, posters who believe they hold some moral high ground and attempt to put others down as soon as they post. Don't confuse lack of interest on forums as lack of interest in life. I keep abreast of politics here, UK and in Ireland three countries if which I have interests in, what I don't need or want to do is engage on forums or on social media as it always without doubt turns into a them v us debate.

So no, I don't "do" politics anymore, except in private
 
#12 ·
I am no longer interested in politics on forums simply because it always turns into a fascist right v leftwing looney debate, posters who believe they hold some moral high ground and attempt to put others down as soon as they post. Don't confuse lack of interest on forums as lack of interest in life. I keep abreast of politics here, UK and in Ireland three countries if which I have interests in, what I don't need or want to do is engage on forums or on social media as it always without doubt turns into a them v us debate.

So no, I don't "do" politics anymore, except in private
I know what you mean - let’s see how long we can keep this thread going before it degenerates!
 
#13 ·
You all are such a great source of inspiration, I appreciate all of you. I agree that it's extremely difficult to find anywhere to discuss the realities and facts without people becoming entrenched in their own beliefs/desires. I'm a data/fact guy and like looking at reality for just that - what things are in the moment, without the persuasive "you need to think this" crap.

FWIW, I'm a mod on a really large science forum and we have a policy of no politics at all - period. It is spelled out in our terms of service. It has kept the forums alive and heathy since the early 2000s with well over 150k users. We quash any and all attempts from posters to go political, no questions asked. It's the only way we've found to ensure sanity :)

That said I wish someone would stand up a forum for politics with the exact same type of terms of service, but allowing politics only in a courteous, data-backed way. If someone did that the site would be wildly popular. But then again, you'd need a platoon of mods just to keep things in line!

Thanks again for the discourse here, I am lucky to have found this forum and you all!

--Henry
 
#14 ·
it always turns into a fascist right v leftwing looney debate
Yeah, that's kind of where I am. I consider myself a leftie, and have become deeply disgusted with the right, but have also become disenchanted with the left, too. Political leanings used to be a bell curve - it is becoming a U-shape with just the extremes. There is no room for moderates. Any discussion just devolves into the two extremes screaming at each other, everyone to the right of the left is a fascist, and everyone to the left of the right is a communist that hates America (at least here). There is no oxygen left for the moderates, for a healthy, productive debate between left-of-center and right-of-center.

I don't think it was caused-by, but it certainly has been accelerated to warp speed by social media. I've basically had to abandon Facebook - it was bad enough to get into arguments with right-wing extremists, but when I started getting shouted down by my liberal friends for not being extreme enough, for wanting to do things like "fact checking" and "trying to understand what the other side was saying". I lost a few friends. Now I only really check FB for my groups. The few times I get pulled back into a debate, I regret it - I'm usually arguing with someone that doesn't care what the facts are. What is the point of that?

I'm deeply concerned about the future. We can solve just about any problem - if we work together and respect one another. But people seem more interested in chauvinism, insults, pseudo-science, misinformation, etc. This is not slowing down but is accelerating. I might have hope if people saw it as a problem, but too many people cheer it on. The may complain about the other side's epistemological trickery, but embrace it on their side. This terrifies me.

It's probably worse here in the States. To compound things, we Americans are often woefully underinformed - despite assuming that we are the world's expert on everything. Oh, the stories I could tell... By contrast, when in Europe, I found people better informed and more willing to listen. I'm sure there are loonies there too, but nothing can match what it is like here now. We should be getting to Spain by next summer (if covid permits) - I know things won't be perfect, but at least I won't be surrounded by Trump fanatics and guns.
 
#17 ·
Some pointers
Politics in Spain and maybe in other countries is a marketing campaign, well really a smear campaign and in the campaign anything can be used, not to add to the worth of your argument, but to throw shiit at the others. Polititians say less and less about what they are going to do and more and more about what the other party didn't do.

Mainstream politics and local politics are completely mixed up so for example elections are to be held shortly in Madrid and Ayuso talks constantly about Sanchez and Sanchismo (president of the country) but her PSOE opponent is actually Gabilondo because even though I'm sure she'd like to fight a national election she is in fact in local politics.

The idea of truth and lie really doesn't exist. The philosophy of just telling the lie over and over, even if people call you out on it, and a large group of people will believe you, is what reigns. When Esperanza Aguirre was president I remember the streets being full of posters saying that they were investing in health workers and this was receiving a lot of media coverage. At the same time there were doctors, nurses, surgeons etc were on strike for better pay and conditions.

I think this is worldwide, but anyway, this is a snapshot of politics in Spain today
 
#18 ·
I particulary like the Vox campaign poster which states that an unaccompanied immigrant child in Spain cost more to the government that a pensioner gets when retired. Yet Vox voted against the last propsed rise in pensions... politics relies on people having very short, or selective memories!
 
#19 ·
Jazzguitar, good post, agree with a lot of it. Just one thing though, I wouldn't advise changing your country because of Politics. Policies and Leaders can change quickly, the public can change too. A case of different country same sh*t. I would find Politics easier to ignore in Spain because I have never got my head around how they work so maybe it would do me good ;)
"Politicians are like sperm, one in a million turn out to be a human being"
 
#21 ·
Jazzguitar, good post, agree with a lot of it. Just one thing though, I wouldn't advise changing your country because of Politics. Policies and Leaders can change quickly, the public can change too. A case of different country same sh*t. I would find Politics easier to ignore in Spain because I have never got my head around how they work so maybe it would do me good ;)
"Politicians are like sperm, one in a million turn out to be a human being"
I think the political culture in most of Europe is still sufficiently different from the US to warrant a change of continent. At least we don’t label everyone slightly left of centre as Commies.
 
#20 ·
One thing is to change country expecting a different political leadership (which clearly in most cases is transient in nature), another thing is moving from one system to another.

Sadly I don't think that Spain is particulalry "better" than many other places either in its systematic or in the leaders chosen by the electorate!

The most politically stable and clear political system I have lived under was a military dictatorship.... but I wouldn't really recommend it.
 
#22 ·
Very true. The irony is that dictatorships once established basically lead to stability as there is almost nothing anyone can do about it. With no power to change with no elections things just remain unchanging and people unfortunately just have to accept it. Part of the Franco movement constantly talk about this. The idea that people knew their position and that was that. They talk about life being simple, knowable, consistent, frictionless. Weird isnt it? It's like the existentialist of the 30s talking about the anxiety of the Will. The freedom to determine your destiny puts you in a constant sense of nausea whereas a world with God protects you from the unbearable pressure of being alone and solely in charge.
 
#26 ·
It's pretty difficult to get people from the rest of the world to understand just how toxic it is in the US politically. Every common topic seems to return to the battle between political sides. You (the group) are correct when you say that anyone even slightly to the left of mid-right is labelled either antifa or a commie. What those same people fail to realize is that what they call "the left" are actually anything but when compared to the rest of the world. It's been quite interesting growing up here with all of the changes; back in the 1980s we could have rational discussions about core idealistic differences and come together on a middle ground solution. Not any more - anything - anything at all - proposed by one side is immediately derided and voted against by the other.

Don't get me started about how the medical system works here (because of politics). I have a friend who just had an unexpected cancerous tumor removed and spent several weeks in the hospital. That friend said they might have to sell the property they own to cover the expenses. Another example: My twins were preemies (10 weeks early). They were in the NICU for a bit and came home before their original due date. The bill for that - are you sitting down? - was over 1 MILLION dollars. Fortunately I had what was considered the best insurance available and as such we were fine. Imagine those who didn't have that fortune. People quite literally lose their entire future over a single medical incident here - the stories you hear about this are much more common than you'd expect and they are reality.

Moving to Spain presents us with the possibility of living amongst people who share the same belief that all human beings deserve a basic level of sustenance and health. Even the far right VOX party pales in comparison to the political ****eshow here. I could go on and on, but suffice it to say that we're making this decision based on empirical research as well as anecdotal evidence (friends living across the EU).

And one last thing - we want to be there as badly as it sounds! Can't wait to possibly meet some of you in real life one day, you're a great group of people.

--Henry
 
#28 ·
Politics seems to be going in a worldwide cycle where at the moment the right and far right appear to be gaining ground. Also more radical movements against minorities, racism and homophobia for example seem to be on the rise after years of being covered in political correctness and many seemingly believing (naively in my opinion) that this behaviour just didn't exist in most of the "civilized world" any longer. Vox in Spain, the years of Trump in the US, Le Pen in France, Bolsonaro in Brazil, Putin in Russia in power until 2024...
Maybe it's always been like this, I don't know enough about it
 
#29 ·
Right, but nearly 50% of the population didn't vote for either Le Pen. (Although in fairness, Putin did get 117% of the vote.) A large portion of the population don't view Le Pen as a messianic figure sent by god to cleanse the government of a cabal of communist pedophiles. When either Le Pen lost their elections, there wasn't an all consuming conspiracy theory that led to an insurrection that left people dead and that people still believe and that MANY major politicians either endorse or pander to. A quarter of the population didn't believe that the election was stolen from their messiah by a conspiracy of liberals that want to turn their children into slaves in a communist dystopia. Many of these people are armed and open to the idea "taking back" their country with violence. I know you think I am exaggerating - this is fairly common rhetoric here now. (And yeah, liberal extremists aren't much better.) Furthermore, the problem with conspiracy theories is that they are nearly impossible to disprove to the believers - any evidence that contradicts what they believe just proves how big the conspiracy is.

Yeah, there has been an increase in right-wing populism, but there is also an increase in left-wing populism. And (at least in my country) that drive towards extremism is increasing. I don't think people realize how bad it's gotten in the States at this point. My wife (an immigrant that grew up under a dictator) no longer feels safe in this country.

I guess only time will tell. I try to remind myself that nearly every culture in the history of the world has either thought that they were in a golden age or thought everything was falling apart. You're entitled to your opinions and observations. They just contradict what I've seen. I've recently lived in the conservative south and currently live in the Bay Area, probably the most liberal place in the US. Frankly, extremism on both sides is increasing, the rhetoric (and sometimes the action) is getting increasingly violent. And this is in a country that is markedly more violent than its peers and has more guns than people. People are increasingly thinking that anyone that doesn't agree with them is the enemy. For the first time ever, I'm afraid of my country. I know things won't be perfect in BCN, but in my experience, it's much better than what this country is becoming. We're not moving because of these things - we've been working on this for more than 10 years - but it does convince us that this was the right move.

But we're getting off topic.
 
#30 ·
Right, but nearly 50% of the population didn't vote for either Le Pen. (Although in fairness, Putin did get 117% of the vote.) A large portion of the population don't view Le Pen as a messianic figure sent by god to cleanse the government of a cabal of communist pedophiles. When either Le Pen lost their elections, there wasn't an all consuming conspiracy theory that led to an insurrection that left people dead and that people still believe and that MANY major politicians either endorse or pander to. A quarter of the population didn't believe that the election was stolen from their messiah by a conspiracy of liberals that want to turn their children into slaves in a communist dystopia. Many of these people are armed and open to the idea "taking back" their country with violence. I know you think I am exaggerating - this is fairly common rhetoric here now. (And yeah, liberal extremists aren't much better.) Furthermore, the problem with conspiracy theories is that they are nearly impossible to disprove to the believers - any evidence that contradicts what they believe just proves how big the conspiracy is.

Yeah, there has been an increase in right-wing populism, but there is also an increase in left-wing populism. And (at least in my country) that drive towards extremism is increasing. I don't think people realize how bad it's gotten in the States at this point. My wife (an immigrant that grew up under a dictator) no longer feels safe in this country.

I guess only time will tell. I try to remind myself that nearly every culture in the history of the world has either thought that they were in a golden age or thought everything was falling apart. You're entitled to your opinions and observations. They just contradict what I've seen. I've recently lived in the conservative south and currently live in the Bay Area, probably the most liberal place in the US. Frankly, extremism on both sides is increasing, the rhetoric (and sometimes the action) is getting increasingly violent. And this is in a country that is markedly more violent than its peers and has more guns than people. People are increasingly thinking that anyone that doesn't agree with them is the enemy. For the first time ever, I'm afraid of my country. I know things won't be perfect in BCN, but in my experience, it's much better than what this country is becoming. We're not moving because of these things - we've been working on this for more than 10 years - but it does convince us that this was the right move.

But we're getting off topic.
Well played and nicely stated. Most people in the world think that this is hyperbole, when in fact it is not. I just cannot understand those people who think, against all scientific and rational evidence, that way. Occam's Razor and all that. We really, really want to get away from all of this. I look forward to meeting you in the BCN area when we are both a lot safer.
 
#33 ·
I am British born, Jamaican raised, and a naturalized US citizen who has worked in UK, US and different Middle Eastern countries. Every country has loonies on both sides of the political spectrum, (not to mention religion!) and I don’t like to generalize, but I have never come across the level of ignorance about political systems and about other countries, together with a refusal to reflect on and consider alternatives, as I experienced in the US. I have good friends there, and there are many places and things I love about the US, but I have neither the financial resources required to live there decently with good health care nor the desire to live there anymore the way it has become. Spain has problems for sure, but I believe that the quality of life here is good and the people have not become as blinkered and driven as in the US. Sure, absolute power can produce amazing things (as in Dubai), can cover up the bad things, and maintain stability at least in the short term. But eventually some kind of democracy may arise, and if it does it will have to rely on an educated and open minded population to succeed. Unfortunately that is not the case right now in the US.
 
#35 ·
Is this thread about which country has the most unstable extreme political situation?

I confess to thinking that for some Americans, the current "extremism" is seen as being so "extreme" because up until recently, there had not been much political polarity or events, at least in recent times, but I am reading the US posters' views with much interest.
I do share Pesky's view that going to live in Barcelona is not what most people would consider as a lifestyle choise associated with living among political tranquility!
And while we are all quoting examples of how bad things are where we are now, let's not forget that Brexit cost one UK politician her life (Jo Cox) when she was murdered by a right wing extremist in the UK because of her campaign to remain.
 
#36 ·
Again, yes, I know Spain isn't perfect. Yes, I know that there are tensions in Catalonia, especially in Barcelona. I'm not looking for "political tranquility". I'm looking for, to put it bluntly, a place where the political narrative is not driven by uneducated ******** with guns that are pushing a political conspiracy theory that is the epistemological equivalent of believing in the flat earth. And they have lots and lots of guns. I enjoy a healthy political dialectic - what we have right now is very toxic and has been slowly growing since the 80s and has accelerated exponentially and is not slowing down.

But as I said, that isn't the only factor. There are other reasons why my wife and I want to move to Barcelona.
 
#37 ·
Again, yes, I know Spain isn't perfect. Yes, I know that there are tensions in Catalonia, especially in Barcelona. I'm not looking for "political tranquility". I'm looking for, to put it bluntly, a place where the political narrative is not driven by uneducated **** with guns that are pushing a political conspiracy theory that is the epistemological equivalent of believing in the flat earth. And they have lots and lots of guns. I enjoy a healthy political dialectic - what we have right now is very toxic and has been slowly growing since the 80s and has accelerated exponentially and is not slowing down.

But as I said, that isn't the only factor. There are other reasons why my wife and I want to move to Barcelona.
Actually they have bullets in Spain which they have recently been mailing to politicians so they do crazy here too!
 
#46 ·
Pondering the Europe wide rise of populist movements mainly of the right but also of the left with Iglesias’ original Podemos and to a lesser extent La France Insoumise it’s not really surprising that they share an important feature.
I would include Vox with Wilder’s Dutch Freedom Party along with Johnson’s Conservatives. Alca quite correctly rejects the label ‘fascist’ for Vox. Expressing hostility to uncontrolled illegal immigration along with adherence to traditional social mores and a tendency to use intemperate language are attitudes found in parts of the UK Conservative Party after all. Reactionary, authoritarian...but not fascist.
One thing these movements share is a policy split of left economic policies and right wing cultural norms. Increased wages, conditions and benefits exclusively for the Spanish, French, Dutch. The Polish and Hungarian ruling Parties likewise. Not much attention has been focused on Vox’ economic programme but I’d be surprised if it doesn’t fit the mould.
This blend of left/right politics has appeal to older voters and those whose lives and communities have been affected by globalisation and austerity, something I mentioned in an earlier post. Sánchez’ PSOE has so far managed to skilfully walk the political tightrope.
Something else these Parties have in common is antipathy to the EU, muted in the case of Vox because of the huge allocation of EU structural funds to Spain.
It‘s likely - but not certain - that Hartlepool will go Tory on Thursday. Not surprising really. It was one of the areas with the strongest Brexit vote. Johnson has expanded employment opportunities by designating it a Freeport and free from EU restrictions can pour money into encouraging new industries with subsidies and tax benefits. So voters can reasonably believe that they will be better off thanks to Brexit and the Tories. The two ‘sides’ of the new politics neatly combined!!
This from a tax and spend government which includes Priti Patel......
 
#60 ·
Looks like the worst possible outcome in Madrid, with PP needing Vox to retain control.

Ironically for the left, it would have been better for Ayuso to have won with an absolute majority therefore keeping the facists out (and yes, I do use the word facist for Vox and will continue to do so despite some opinions on here).
 
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