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Personally my "best" Mexican friend stems from 1962 and now he is a rich, racist bigot, sort of.

Through him and others I have learned to understand the chip on shoulder mentality of the educated classes in Mexico. Understandably in the context of US/ Mexican history.

Nevertheless, I am not particularly sociable, and my Mex wife bitches about that, but I have had, am having, and probably will continue to suspect my so called "mexican friends" of ulterior motives.

I suspect that they either want something from me, or are trying to figure out how to screw me in their favor. I am probably hexing the few that may actually like me for who and what I am

This probably sounds racist, and it probably is, and probably is universal (Don`t trust the Greeks, they will screw you, as said in umpteen German travel guides).

Bottom line is I am totally conversational in Spanish, but, aside from my continuing experiences from 1962 I have yet to form a "good buddy" relationship with a Mexican.
Yes, I have all the syndromes of supposed Mexican friendships, big hugs, shared drinks and shared kills, and the equivalent of family picnics,


But in my heart I know that I am not one of "them", because ................
 

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Because I'm new in the neighborhood, because I can't totally BS with the guys (tho Spanish is pretty good), 'cause of financial differences .... but what the heck. Haven't been robbed lately, or mugged, lots of parties, food, beach outings ... and my workers do a good job.

The gringos here are crazier than most Mexicans I know and understanding them makes it worse
 

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Personally my "best" Mexican friend stems from 1962 and now he is a rich, racist bigot, sort of.

Through him and others I have learned to understand the chip on shoulder mentality of the educated classes in Mexico. Understandably in the context of US/ Mexican history.

Nevertheless, I am not particularly sociable, and my Mex wife bitches about that, but I have had, am having, and probably will continue to suspect my so called "mexican friends" of ulterior motives.

I suspect that they either want something from me, or are trying to figure out how to screw me in their favor. I am probably hexing the few that may actually like me for who and what I am

This probably sounds racist, and it probably is, and probably is universal (Don`t trust the Greeks, they will screw you, as said in umpteen German travel guides).

Bottom line is I am totally conversational in Spanish, but, aside from my continuing experiences from 1962 I have yet to form a "good buddy" relationship with a Mexican.
Yes, I have all the syndromes of supposed Mexican friendships, big hugs, shared drinks and shared kills, and the equivalent of family picnics,


But in my heart I know that I am not one of "them", because ................
Being a person who studies philosophy, psychology and history etc. has me not trying to totally understand everything from an emotional level but from a subjective view of differences most people have than might seem non objective to me. Mexican culture has one big difference. Most raised NOB Americanos have a main value of pride in being independent . Most born SOB have a main value of being codependent. After overcoming my distaste of this aspect of the culture I have come to realize you can put the dots together when things happen that I before thought were wrong, but now see why they are so prevalent. Not thinking I was better because of a value I had or a value others have made it all make sense and now I see things that I just simply say to myself: "Who cares." This works for me.
 

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Being a person who studies philosophy, psychology and history etc. has me not trying to totally understand everything from an emotional level but from a subjective view of differences most people have than might seem non objective to me. Mexican culture has one big difference. Most raised NOB Americanos have a main value of pride in being independent . Most born SOB have a main value of being codependent. After overcoming my distaste of this aspect of the culture I have come to realize you can put the dots together when things happen that I before thought were wrong, but now see why they are so prevalent. Not thinking I was better because of a value I had or a value others have made it all make sense and now I see things that I just simply say to myself: "Who cares." This works for me.
You may be right. But I'd change one word in your theory, and then I would agree with it, based on not just Mexicans, but every culture where family and neighbor mean something much more expansive than NOB.

Change "codependent" with its connotations of addiction and the people who enable those addictions to "interdependent".

Interdependent seems to hit the mark for me: relying on each other for both survival and for well being. I used to be married to an alcoholic. I've seen codependent in all its tawdry maladaptation, in too many variations to apply it to an entire society.
 

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You may be right. But I'd change one word in your theory, and then I would agree with it, based on not just Mexicans, but every culture where family and neighbor mean something much more expansive than NOB.

Change "codependent" with its connotations of addiction and the people who enable those addictions to "interdependent".

Interdependent seems to hit the mark for me: relying on each other for both survival and for well being. I used to be married to an alcoholic. I've seen codependent in all its tawdry maladaptation, in too many variations to apply it to an entire society.
You might have to see the way I see it to understand the harsh reality of the Catholic religion influence on family, neighbor, employee/employer, government relations. Yes, most predominately Catholic countries are similar in their main value of interdependence on others that willing will give too much and in return expect the same too much later on. Of course not all citizens are following the norm but check out many opposites the countries that follow non Catholic values as the norm [Protestant values or conservative values] and you will see, for example, NOB born folks do not understand Mexican culture even in the slightest degree and find it very strange, socialist and are opposed to it because of that. Not all of course.
 

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Bottom line is I am totally conversational in Spanish, but, aside from my continuing experiences from 1962 I have yet to form a "good buddy" relationship with a Mexican.
Yes, I have all the syndromes of supposed Mexican friendships, big hugs, shared drinks and shared kills, and the equivalent of family picnics,


But in my heart I know that I am not one of "them", because ................
Interesting. While I haven't lived in Mexico -- yet -- I worked for five years at a museum in Taos, New Mexico, 1979-84. Taos has a large majority of "Spanish" folks (don"t EVER call them Mexicans!) dating back to the early 17th century. There is (or was) considerable racial resentment towad the Anglo minority, stemming from both historical factors and from perceived economic disparities. For example, the Spanish resent not only the American takeover during the War with Mexico, but the fact that previously harmonius relations with the local Pueblo Indian poopulation were disturbed by the arrival of Anglo romantics who elevated the Indians to "noble and artistic" status, while dismissing the Spanish as close-minded, backward peasants.

After a few years, I noted that while I had developed plenty of business and personal aquaintances with Spanish people, none of them became friendships, and none ever did. I asked a colleague about this -- my assistant curator, whose family was quite historically prominent in the area. Her answer? "We can be friendly...but never friends." It's a matter of trust. They just don't have it for us Anglos.

In any case, I'm not moving to Mexico to make friends, though that would be nice.
 

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Interesting. While I haven't lived in Mexico -- yet -- I worked for five years at a museum in Taos, New Mexico, 1979-84. Taos has a large majority of "Spanish" folks (don"t EVER call them Mexicans!) dating back to the early 17th century. There is (or was) considerable racial resentment towad the Anglo minority, stemming from both historical factors and from perceived economic disparities. For example, the Spanish resent not only the American takeover during the War with Mexico, but the fact that previously harmonius relations with the local Pueblo Indian poopulation were disturbed by the arrival of Anglo romantics who elevated the Indians to "noble and artistic" status, while dismissing the Spanish as close-minded, backward peasants.

After a few years, I noted that while I had developed plenty of business and personal aquaintances with Spanish people, none of them became friendships, and none ever did. I asked a colleague about this -- my assistant curator, whose family was quite historically prominent in the area. Her answer? "We can be friendly...but never friends." It's a matter of trust. They just don't have it for us Anglos.

In any case, I'm not moving to Mexico to make friends, though that would be nice.
An interesting observation. My situation is very different. My ex wife was from Mexicali, 30+ years ago we were together and her large family all live there. After my divorce my present wife lives and works in central Mexico. I worked in a DVD, CD. Video replication factory for 15 years in San Diego with over 150 Mexicans, many living in TJ and commuting daily in car pools over the years there. I have many very good Mexican friends. I get respect from most I might venture to guess because I married one way back then. My ex wife has a few very good Americana friends in SD. These are not superficial relationship but solid real friendships. I know this from big problems at work were my Mexican friends stood up for me against their paisnos on occasion.

I think generalizations do not really make a case in a valid way but do understand when you criticize too much it can be a turn off. I stopped this before it was noticed as a bad habit of mine from letting my wives guide me through the rough spots along the road and trusting their judgement over my own, which then became my "new" habit. Also coming from Canada I went through a dual culture experience that in many ways paralleled each other.

My Canadian friends appear to much more critical of Mexicans and also Americas [don't understand cultural differences] in general, than my friends in SD are of Mexicans and they also don't give a hoot about Canadians.
 

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An interesting observation. My situation is very different. My ex wife was from Mexicali, 30+ years ago we were together and her large family all live there. After my divorce my present wife lives and works in central Mexico. I worked in a DVD, CD. Video replication factory for 15 years in San Diego with over 150 Mexicans, many living in TJ and commuting daily in car pools over the years there. I have many very good Mexican friends. I get respect from most I might venture to guess because I married one way back then. My ex wife has a few very good Americana friends in SD. These are not superficial relationship but solid real friendships. I know this from big problems at work were my Mexican friends stood up for me against their paisnos on occasion.

I think generalizations do not really make a case in a valid way but do understand when you criticize too much it can be a turn off. I stopped this before it was noticed as a bad habit of mine from letting my wives guide me through the rough spots along the road and trusting their judgement over my own, which then became my "new" habit. Also coming from Canada I went through a dual culture experience that in many ways paralleled each other.

My Canadian friends appear to much more critical of Mexicans and also Americas [don't understand cultural differences] in general, than my friends in SD are of Mexicans and they also don't give a hoot about Canadians.
Good point about San Diego, Alan, and one which rightly contradicts my Taos experience -- perhaps northern New Mexico is its own special case. I lived in San Diego for ten years until 2001 and worked at San Diego Opera. I participated in cross-border business associations, visited Baja 4 or 5 times a year, helped bring the first Mexican opera to a U.S. stage, and served on the board of the Mexican Cultural Institute, an arm of the Consulate of Mexico. In fact, I did make friendships in the Mexican community, some of which survive to this day. I was dealing almost entirely with business, artistic and professional types -- all highly sophisticated and better educated than I am. I found that sincere enthusiasm and respect for Mexican culture and history helped. On the other hand, my experience with people I knew in Barrio Logan was not always so smooth; although the Opera did a lot of very positive outreach there, some barriers seemed to exist.
 

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You may be right. But I'd change one word in your theory, and then I would agree with it, based on not just Mexicans, but every culture where family and neighbor mean something much more expansive than NOB.

Change "codependent" with its connotations of addiction and the people who enable those addictions to "interdependent".

Interdependent seems to hit the mark for me: relying on each other for both survival and for well being. I used to be married to an alcoholic. I've seen codependent in all its tawdry maladaptation, in too many variations to apply it to an entire society.
Here is the definition of : Interdependence
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


"Interdependence is a relation between its members such that each is mutually dependent on the others. This concept differs from a simple dependence relation, which implies that one member of the relationship can't function or survive apart from the other(s).

In an interdependent relationship, participants may be emotionally, economically, ecologically and/or morally reliant on and responsible to each other. An interdependent relationship can arise between two or more cooperative autonomous participants (e.g. - co-op). Some people advocate freedom or independence as the ultimate good; others do the same with devotion to one's family, community, or society. Interdependence can be a common ground between these aspirations."

In this context I would still have to use the term codependent in my above synopsis as to a meaning that fits much better. Many do not give back equally and are not expected to until it is their turn usually much later on in some family relations and many times, for an example, compadres and comadres don't get much back except respect. In gov't. relations this mutual giving is also not seen as applicable in many cases. Take the teacher's unions in Mexico for an example. For another take the influence peddling and mordita, the gov't. is not getting back but the paisnos are. Neighbor relations are more of a mutual affair sometimes, but not always.
 

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..... Paisanos....

The Seguro Popular is an example were the bulk of the benefits are for free and taxes support it but the cash society, fading now it Mexico, did not give up their money reliably to the gov't. This I would venture to guess this is a system of codependency in a huge way and gov't sanctioned.
 

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Here is the definition of : Interdependence
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


"Interdependence is a relation between its members such that each is mutually dependent on the others. This concept differs from a simple dependence relation, which implies that one member of the relationship can't function or survive apart from the other(s).

In an interdependent relationship, participants may be emotionally, economically, ecologically and/or morally reliant on and responsible to each other. An interdependent relationship can arise between two or more cooperative autonomous participants (e.g. - co-op). Some people advocate freedom or independence as the ultimate good; others do the same with devotion to one's family, community, or society. Interdependence can be a common ground between these aspirations."

In this context I would still have to use the term codependent in my above synopsis as to a meaning that fits much better. Many do not give back equally and are not expected to until it is their turn usually much later on in some family relations and many times, for an example, compadres and comadres don't get much back except respect. In gov't. relations this mutual giving is also not seen as applicable in many cases. Take the teacher's unions in Mexico for an example. For another take the influence peddling and mordita, the gov't. is not getting back but the paisnos are. Neighbor relations are more of a mutual affair sometimes, but not always.
I see your point. But the reason why codependency doesn't ring correctly, for me, is that it is actually pathological; codependents enable people with addictions or other pathological conditions to avoid the consequences of their actions by stepping in and "'protecting" them.

Here's the Wiki for the word: Codependency - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

It would be unfair to an entire society or entire societies to label them as pathological.

FWIW, I grew up Catholic, in an Irish family. I understand the pressures to follow the path laid out for you without varying from it. Yet, even in countries like MX and IT, people do so, and their parents, the government and the Church learn to deal.
 

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I see your point. But the reason why codependency doesn't ring correctly, for me, is that it is actually pathological; codependents enable people with addictions or other pathological conditions to avoid the consequences of their actions by stepping in and "'protecting" them.

Here's the Wiki for the word: Codependency - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

It would be unfair to an entire society or entire societies to label them as pathological.

FWIW, I grew up Catholic, in an Irish family. I understand the pressures to follow the path laid out for you without varying from it. Yet, even in countries like MX and IT, people do so, and their parents, the government and the Church learn to deal.
I can see your point but cannot come up with another word, but feel I tried to explain my feelings about it in very generalized terms. Actually some values learnt are pathological, in a very broad sense, and in the sense they can be self destructive to a minor degree when going overboard because of guilt and debasing yourself and sometimes projecting these feeling onto others who do not want to follow along gracefully after the ones embracing the value and denying it is "not perfect and a not always relevant today and normal". Accepting it as a norm but realizing it's roots, in this case feudalism that has the lord of the manor possessing you for your own protection from tribal assaults etc., common in Biblical time and beyond as it was honed to it's present form, makes for a happy camper. If extreme guilt overcomes you, then your happiness is replace by fear and dependency on a "lord" or system that acts as a new "lord" and you cannot express yourself except from inside those strict boundaries and want everyone else inside with you or else you just might see them as outsiders in need of help.
 
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