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As an aside - and I'm sure I'm not the only one to ask this question - why would the Mexican government make it more difficult for foreigners, especially retirees, to qualify for residency visas? Are they afraid of indigent gringos making demands on the almost non-existent Mexican social safety net?
I don't know why they have raised the limits. But the Mexican social safety net is better than the US social safety net in some ways, medical in particular. There is also DIF*, but I am not familiar with the details about what they provide.

*Desarollo Integral de la Familia
 

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As for the "social safety net" in Mexico: I doubt anyone's going to seriously claim what's available in Mexico is as expansive or of a higher quality as is available in either the USA or Canada. :D
Where in the USA or Canada can a worker with a family buy a new small house or apartment for $500.00 USD down and $120.00 USD per month after working for 6 months in a city with an easy to get low interest loan. In Mexico this type of social welfare is available to workers and their family.

Let´s not try to compare NOB welfare systems with Mexican systems, it is not similar. Giving slanted info. is one thing I see many NOBers doing all of the time without knowing what Mexico´s systems are all about and usually not caring to find out.



In Mexico, a Plan to Beat Poverty With Health Care and Education

http://www.ers.usda.gov/media/927155/fanrr6b_002.pdf

[email protected]: Recommendations to make the affordable housing sector in Mexico more efficient in order to increase the welfare and quality of life of Mexicans

http://www.odi.org/sites/odi.org.uk/files/odi-assets/publications-opinion-files/1918.pdf
 

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Where in the USA or Canada can a worker with a family buy a new small house or apartment for $500.00 USD down and $120.00 USD per month after working for 6 months in a city with an easy to get low interest loan. In Mexico this type of social welfare is available to workers and their family.

Let´s not try to compare NOB welfare systems with Mexican systems, it is not similar. Giving slanted info. is one thing I see many NOBers doing all of the time without knowing what Mexico´s systems are all about and usually not caring to find out.



In Mexico, a Plan to Beat Poverty With Health Care and Education

http://www.ers.usda.gov/media/927155/fanrr6b_002.pdf

[email protected]: Recommendations to make the affordable housing sector in Mexico more efficient in order to increase the welfare and quality of life of Mexicans

http://www.odi.org/sites/odi.org.uk/files/odi-assets/publications-opinion-files/1918.pdf
As for the "social safety net" in Mexico: I doubt anyone's going to seriously claim what's available in Mexico is as expansive or of a higher quality as is available in either the USA or Canada. :D
Also what might be considered government and societal social welfare programs:

Heavily subsidized electric costs, if you stay out of the DAC rate. Property taxes that reflect a small fraction of what they cost NOB. Regulated drug costs. Regulation on some of the basic food costs. 50% discounts for seniors on water, property taxes, 50% discounts on city busses and intercity busses, discounts on medicines and various other things including free admission to government archaeological sites, musuems, free rides on the subway in Mexico City, etc.

Free daycare for some government and union member employees. Free rehab from DIF for addicts.
 

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Yes, the social safety net is so darn good someone needs to convince the approx. 50% of Mexicans living below a terribly low poverty line it's so good. Tens of millions of Mexicans have fled their country for what they believe is a better life elsewhere. Anywhere but Mexico. Thousands died in the deserts ... on their way out of Mexico, searching for something better. Yes, remind the old they can ride some busses for 50% off, or subways which don't exist where they live.
 

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Yes, the social safety net is so darn good someone needs to convince the approx. 50% of Mexicans living below a terribly low poverty line it's so good. Tens of millions of Mexicans have fled their country for what they believe is a better life elsewhere. Anywhere but Mexico. Thousands died in the deserts ... on their way out of Mexico, searching for something better. Yes, remind the old they can ride some busses for 50% off, or subways which don't exist where they live.

http://www.migrationpolicy.org/article/mexican-immigrants-united-states

"As of 2013, approximately 11.6 million Mexican immigrants resided in the United States—up from 2.2 million in 1980—and Mexicans accounted for 28 percent of the country’s 41.3 million foreign born."

A far cry from "tens of millions"

Maybe do some research before posting.

Living in the US: "Compared to the total foreign-born population, Mexican immigrants were more likely to be Limited English Proficient (LEP), have less education and lower income, experience a higher poverty rate, and lack health insurance."

"The vast majority of Mexican emigrants settle in the United States, with others heading to Canada (70,000), Spain (47,000), and Guatemala (17,000), according to mid-2013 estimates by the United Nations Population Division."

Isn´t this discussion about modern Mexico´s social welfare systems and not about Mexico´s poverty level or Mexicans immigrating to other countries? Do you have anything to contribute? I don´t think comparing welfare systems in the US or Canada with what Mexico has is going anywhere.

"As an aside - and I'm sure I'm not the only one to ask this question - why would the Mexican government make it more difficult for foreigners, especially retirees, to qualify for residency visas? Are they afraid of indigent gringos making demands on the almost non-existent Mexican social safety net?"

I was concentrating on HolyMole´s above comment and not really considering what you posted.

If you want to discusss Mexicans immigrating to other countries why not start a thread about it?
 

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Longford is dead on. There is almost no social safety net in Mexico. Ask the single mothers with multiple babies and no husband if they get any help. Ask the beggars in wheelchairs if they get any help. Why would a Mexican risk his life to cross a desert after paying outrageous fees to some Coyote if life were so great in Mexico?
 

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Ask the beggars in wheelchairs if they get any help. Why would a Mexican risk his life to cross a desert after paying outrageous fees to some Coyote if life were so great in Mexico?
I don’t believe either of the points you make are based on good evidence. Each week I cross to visit San Diego and in the downtown area am accosted on just about every street corner by beggars. You can’t make an assumption about the existence or adequacy of a safety net by highlighting people who may not take advantage of one.

This continual claim of Mexicans “fleeing” their country for “anywhere but Mexico” is looking at things backwards in my opinion. It’s about USA, not Mexico. The latest stats (2014) from the Diversity Lottery show that more than 14 million people from eligible countries entered the lottery. Those millions of people made an active decision to attempt to leave their homes and friends to emigrate to USA (which of course, if successful, would also involve considerable costs and fees.) So it’s hardly surprising that the attractions of USA also appeal to residents of a country right next door to it. I’m not convinced that the number of Mexicans who wish to live in America has any more relevance to conditions in their home country than it does for the many Japanese, German, Italians and Russians, for example, who also aspire to move to USA.
 

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I think the IMSS program is very good value. But it is pretty expensive for low end families. It does include pharma. But there are no welfare programs for the unemployed or infirm.

And beggars make out pretty well in certain cities. In Vancouver, they determined that the average income was around $55k and no taxes.
 

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I think the IMSS program is very good value. But it is pretty expensive for low end families. It does include pharma.
That's why the Seguro Popular program was set up a couple of years ago, to provide health care at no cost to Mexicans without access to IMSS.
 

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buzzbar: My comments are based on what I see and talking to our Mexican friends. Mexicans do not want to go the USA. They love their country. But with no real social safety net life can be difficult. I am Canadian and I compare our systems to those in Mexico. In Canada a disabled person gets welfare and/or job training. Single mothers get assistance. Employees who lose their job due to shutdowns can get retraining. Need a high school diploma? You will get help. Mexicans generally get none of the above Young men are forced to cross the desert and get work NOB. Disabled can beg DIF for help but little is available. So they beg in the streets. To deny that this is true is ludicrous. Get out of the big cities and ****** enclaves and see the other Mexico. Don't bother quoting fictitious statistics. Seguro Popular has been a good program but the drugs are very limited and the clinics can be 3rd world. Your comparison of Germans or other Europeans and Mexicans shows no knowledge of the problems that Mexican face. Do you think a young Mexican with little or no education can get a passport? Have you ever been poor in your life? Have you ever worked with those who are economically disadvantaged? To suggest that they should participate in some lottery with 14 million people is ignoring the fact that they have zero dollars! If I were a young Mexican and my family was starving I would risk the desert crossing and send home some$$$. Would you?
 

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Poor Mexicans do get passports , I have helped many fill out the form as many do not write or read but they do not get a visa, hence the crossing the desert.
I agree the young poor people do not get much help or oportunities to catch up once they drop pout of school. If they live in a town they maybe ableto get some help but for those living in the country there is no hope and no oportunity for most of them. Seguro popular may be ok in cities but it isdismal in the country vey often,
A young friend of mine lives in a village on a dirt road with no good transportation out and the ransportation there is is expensive. He goes to town to get some work 3 to 3 and a half hour from San Cristobal. He may get 250 pesos for the work he sells in town and has to pay 120 pesos to come and go from town. He is very bright but would have to find free lodging in San Cristobal in order to get ahead a little so he continues going back and forth.. His father has a milpa and they eat what they grow. The father gets extra cash from the coffee crop but the coffee in that area is failing and he also gets 500 pesos a month to be on call 24/ for the month to be the first aid nurse for the town... Poverty is hard to imagine and these people are not the worst off..
 

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I am reminded of one of our many trips to southern Mexico. We were staying in our truck camper on a hotel parking lot in Tehauntapec ( Isthmus) as there are no campgrounds. The lot was surrounded by a rock wall. In the morning I could hear voices on the other side of the wall. There was an ox cart with a one bladed plow in the back being pulled by a very large ox. In the cart were 2 adults and a boy of about 12 years. The unhooked the cart and using a crude yoke hooked the plow to the OX. The young boy had a canvas bag over his shoulders. As the Ox made the furrow the boy (who was barefoot) scattered seeds into the crevice. Then using his bare feet he kicked the soil to cover the seeds. I asked what they were planting and it was beans. I knew it had to be beans or corn! We hit the road later that morning and just 500 metres down the road were rich fields being tilled by huge brand new air conditioned John Deere tractors. There was even a John Deere dealer just down the road. Certainly reinforced my understanding that Mexico is a rich/poor country. Does anyone actually believe that boy will get an education of any kind? Will he ever get a real job? The minimum wage in those areas is around 50 pesos. Many of the young men travel North to Sinaloa or Sonora to work in the vegetable and fruit farms. Often they are paid less than minimum wage and usually no Segurro. The smart ones cross into the USA!!!
 

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Ejido land ownership has impeded progress for many small farmers in Mexico. Many children in the rural areas (and many in cities as well) stop going to school early-on in secondaria out of necessity of helping the family work its land, sell goods, crafts, etc. Survival is more important than education, for so many families.

In many of the poorer areas of the country where children have the burning desire to learn and better themselves, the teachers (such as those in Oaxaca) oftentimes don't show up for classes, or are out on strike and when they're there they're so incompetent it's a miracle that some of the kids make it out of school with basic skills. The lack of education, the providing of substandard education ... helps to continue the cycle of poverty which grips so much of the nation.

I've been to some of the mountainous communities in Oaxaca where grown men are paid far below the government-mandated minimum wages and they don't protest about it because of threats from whomever it is employing them. You'll find many clinics in the poorest areas which are either understaffed or lack necessary and supplies to be effective.

No, not the entire country has been abandoned buy the national and state governments ... just a wide swath of Mexico, IMO.

Expats who move to Mexico with the thought of being protected by a 'safety net' provided by the government ... probably ought to change the type of liquor they were drinking when that thought entered their minds!
 

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I am reminded of one of our many trips to southern Mexico. We were staying in our truck camper on a hotel parking lot in Tehauntapec ( Isthmus) as there are no campgrounds. The lot was surrounded by a rock wall. In the morning I could hear voices on the other side of the wall. There was an ox cart with a one bladed plow in the back being pulled by a very large ox. In the cart were 2 adults and a boy of about 12 years. The unhooked the cart and using a crude yoke hooked the plow to the OX. The young boy had a canvas bag over his shoulders. As the Ox made the furrow the boy (who was barefoot) scattered seeds into the crevice. Then using his bare feet he kicked the soil to cover the seeds. I asked what they were planting and it was beans. I knew it had to be beans or corn! We hit the road later that morning and just 500 metres down the road were rich fields being tilled by huge brand new air conditioned John Deere tractors. There was even a John Deere dealer just down the road. Certainly reinforced my understanding that Mexico is a rich/poor country. Does anyone actually believe that boy will get an education of any kind? Will he ever get a real job? The minimum wage in those areas is around 50 pesos. Many of the young men travel North to Sinaloa or Sonora to work in the vegetable and fruit farms. Often they are paid less than minimum wage and usually no Segurro. The smart ones cross into the USA!!!
I know many people cross to the US, but not because they are smart, they run out of options, when they get to the US they are treated like animals in most cases. Some of them succeed, most of them don't
 

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Longford is dead on. There is almost no social safety net in Mexico. Ask the single mothers with multiple babies and no husband if they get any help. Ask the beggars in wheelchairs if they get any help. Why would a Mexican risk his life to cross a desert after paying outrageous fees to some Coyote if life were so great in Mexico?
Because they are poor, ignorant and they don't know any better than that.
They have that expectation; that they can improve their lives if living in the USA, usually they don't.
How can anyone succeed when not knowing the language, when they are ignorants, when their nutritional levels are way below, with no skills at all.
They are treated miserably in the US, underpaid, no social security, most times they get exploited as bests of burden.
It is better now, before they used to have nasty signs
Dreams are just that.
 

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Mexicans do not want to go the USA. They love their country. But with no real social safety net life can be difficult.
Bobbyb, you didn’t grasp the point I was trying to make in my previous post, so I’ll try again. A 2009 landmark Gallup poll found that 165 million adults from across the world said they would move to USA if they had the chance. It was the desired destination of any country in the world by far. We have to assume that this huge number of people wanting to go to the USA includes the rich, poor, young, old, tractor owners, ox cart owners, people from developed countries with advanced social welfare safety nets and people in wheelchairs who get no help. When it comes to migration to USA, both legal and illegal, it’s all about the pull factors, not push. Of course there are exceptions, but the vast majority of people, including Mexicans, are running to, not fleeing from.
 

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gary: Their life while in the USA is probably miserable. Not like the family life they had at home in Mexico. BUT it is all about $$$. They are able to send a lot of money back home to families in Mexico. I have seen figures of $120 billion in 2012. There are small villages with some awesome homes. Built using the $$ they receive from young men working in the USA. Buzzbar: Your last post is simply semantics. Would you call going to a country where you can make the Mexican daily wage in less than an hour running to or fleeing? The difference is subtle and moot. Regardless of the description they are still coming to America.
 

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gary: Their life while in the USA is probably miserable. Not like the family life they had at home in Mexico. BUT it is all about $$$. They are able to send a lot of money back home to families in Mexico. I have seen figures of $120 billion in 2012. There are small villages with some awesome homes. Built using the $$ they receive from young men working in the USA. Buzzbar: Your last post is simply semantics. Would you call going to a country where you can make the Mexican daily wage in less than an hour running to or fleeing? The difference is subtle and moot. Regardless of the description they are still coming to America.
My wife seems to think the villages near here are where the bad guys live and build those awesome houses. In fact when we take drives in the country she won´t let me go into some of them because of that. The radio news sometimes reports where kidnappers and drug cartel members are arrested and states they were living/hiding out in some of the small towns and villages usually near San Luis Potosi on the highway to Zacatecas. There used to be many robberies and kidnapping along that highway.

The latest reported news is the head of the Jalisco Nueva Generación cartel lives in one of those small towns in several awesome houses and has more close by in other small towns.


Maybe you are seeing cartel houses not farm workers or mínimum wage workers houses?

“Es difÃ*cil creer que las autoridades no supieran dónde vivÃ*a "El Mencho" â€� - Grupo Milenio

The 120 billion figure is all immigrants sending money out of the US to other countries. Mexicans are estimated as sending more than 23 billion.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ing-120-BILLION-struggling-families-home.HTML
 

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Their life while in the USA is probably miserable.
Over a period of decades, tens of millions of Mexicans chosen to leave Mexico for the USA ... because for them it was anyplace but Mexico due to their country being unwilling or unable to provide the opportunities they thought were important to live their lives. It's a stunning indictment of Mexico, by Mexicans.

I do believe there was a national policy started with the election of Vicente Fox, and continued for some time, to get as many Mexicans as possible to leave Mexico for the USA to find work so that they could send billions of US$ back to Mexico to prop-up thousands of communities on the brink of collapse because of failed national policies. I view that program as a form of genocide of an entire generation of Mexicans. Many Mexicans chose the prospect of death, which did actually result in the loss of thousands of lives, rather than live in Mexico.

You will find many newer homes throughout rural communities in Mexico which were built, or waiting to be finished, with funds send by family members who (mostly, I think) entered the USA illegally. Their thoughts have been to provide something better for their parents or siblings who remained behind and to have a place to retire to (which I think they probably won't do after having lived in the USA). Many of the family members in the USA have sent back money to provide for local town improvements and the national government inaugurated a plan to match the money sent from abroad to make improvements it was unwilling to make on its own and also to pay for schooling, buy clothes for kids, food, etc.

There's no doubt that the experiences of some of those who went to the USA were or felt they were treated unfairly. The same can be said for immigrants from any of the many other countries who have chosen life in the USA rather than in their "home" countries. And the same can be said for similar peoples who've entered other countries, largely as illegal aliens/lawbreakers.

But if anyone characterizes the experiences and lives of those Mexicans who have chosen the USA over Mexico, entirely as a group, as harsh or brutal or any other harsh description, I'll suggest they don't know many of those folks who've made that journey and are living those lives nor do they know much about life in the USA. :)
 

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I wonder if Longford could substantiate his claim that there was a national policy under Fox for Mexicans to emigrate to the US. Sounds like another "fact" with no proof to back it up.

And perhaps the statement "tens of millions of Mexicans chosen to leave Mexico for the USA" it is simply hyperbole but that number again seems to be an unsubstantiated claim.
 
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