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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
Rupture Conventionnelle - Visa Long Séjour Repercussions

Bonjour!


So I semi expected it coming because the company supporting my visa is not doing well but yesterday I was asked for a "rupture conventionnelle", basically I am being laid off. Any one else have experience with this?

My Background
  1. I have had a Visa Long Séjour for almost 7 months
  2. I have my titre séjour and will being going for my carte séjour shortly
  3. I am being let go due to money and not due to performance.
  4. My bosses asked me to sign a letter saying I would like a rupture conventionnelle addressed to the company. Which I have not signed yet.
  5. My friend who owns a company and who has does a rupture conventionnelle in the past says usually the boss sends the letter to the employee if they are initiating it.

My Questions
  1. I heard I am elligible for chommage and could even start my own company. Any one have this kind of rupture and do this?
  2. I heard I can renew my visa on chommage... anyone done this? Does it depend on WHY you are on chommage?
  3. I assume the next job I get I will at least need a new job permit. True?
  4. If I sign this letter it seems like evidence points that I am initiating it and not my bosses? This makes me nervous for my visa as I know I am not supposed to quit.
    Anyone not be able to renew due to this?

I heard I should get a DDTE representative. Which of course makes me nervous about ruining relations with my bosses.

I am going to call the one here:
service Renseignements Contrat Professionnalisation
210 quai de Jemmapes BP 11 75462 Paris Cedex 10
Tél : 01 44 84 41 00

Anyone experience any of this!?

Will let you know how it goes.

Thanks - JR:
 

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Discussion Starter #3
Also not sure if that is the exact number I need to call to get a representative.... was from my first research. I heard you should have a DDTE for each arrondisment. Anyway will let you guys know.
 

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How long have you worked there? This is VERY important regarding the indemnities you'll be entitled to and also the amount of chomage you'll get. A rupture conventionnelle is WAY cheaper for the employer than a redundancy and the worst financial option for you. Before I go into all the details, let me know your start date so I can give you the correct facts and figures.

Most employers try to get non-French people to sign this rather than make them redundant because they don't expect them to know the financial implications.

Regarding a representative, you must get one starting with your very first entretien. Here's the link to rupture conventionnelle if you can read French (no offence!!).

Rupture conventionnelle d'un CDI - Service-public.fr

Whatever you do, don't sign anything until you've fully researched it. DON'T take any holiday because you get paid for all outstanding holiday whatever option you take. I had a fantastic relationship with my boss until when the business was in a crisis and he needed me to go I quoted the code du travail and had an Inspecteur du Travail accompany me every step of the way. I'm a single parent and I needed every euro I could get. My boss said, quote "This won't be redundancy, you need to resign". Er, I don't think so. He had no option but to make me redundant because I refused to resign (of course!) or sign the rupture conventionnelle. I opted for CRP which is 80% of your brut salary for a year, so in fact was several hundred euros better off than when I was working.

I'll go into the details once you let me know your start date.
 

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PS If you're on a CDI you can't be laid off unless there's a possibility of you being taken back on and this is called chomage partiel, not to be confused with normal chomage. (My French boyfriend's on this at the moment.)

When you were told yesterday how was it done? You had to be formally invited to an 'entretien' even for the very first discussion stages and were entitled to be accompanied by an official representative.

As you probably know, French employment law (like everything else!) is extremely highly regulated and the procedures have to be adhered to by the book.
 

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Discussion Starter #6 (Edited)
Hello!

I started April 9th. So been here almost 7 months.

I def. feel pressured to take my holidays and sign the paper saying i want a rupture. Which at this point i don't mind taking the holidays but I am worried about my visa status. They keep on saying it will be best for everyone to just move a long.......

Thanks so much for your advice. :) I am going to stop by the DDTE today as they have not returned my email or call.

- JR
 

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I def. feel pressured to take my holidays and sign the paper saying i want a rupture. Which at this point i don't mind taking the holidays but I am worried about my visa status. They keep on saying it will be best for everyone to just move a long.......
It will be best for everyone, from your employer's point of view, but I doubt for you.

A rupture conventionnelle is supposed to be when both parties agree to make an end to the contract, which does not seem to be your case. Your employer wants to terminate your contract, I don't read you want. If the company is facing financial difficulties, then your employer has to make you redundant under "licenciement économique". And it has to be under "cause réelles et sérieuses".

Take as many legal advices as you can. I recommend you do NOT sign the rupture conventionnelle and try to keep your holiday as much as you can, so you get the money if your contract ends. When I was made redundant many years ago, my first meeting with the lawyer was free, then we agreed on a fixed fee + percentage of what I was getting from prudhommes.

Hold on to your job!
 

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When I was made redundant I didn't use a lawyer, I used the Inspection du Travail which is your entitlement.

A rupture conventionnelle is not SUPPOSED to be when both parties agree, it HAS to be, regarless of who initiates it.

As I stated in my OP I can give further advice if you need it. For a redundancy the company has to provide a set of the previous year's accounts to justify your redundancy to the Inspecteur du Travail, whish is why I presume they're trying to get you to sign the RC. Don't sign it, go and see an Inspecteur du Travail and don't take any holiday!! I got over 4k for outstanding holiday ...
 

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You're getting masses of really good advice here.

Basically:
sign NOTHING
don't take holiday (& try not to take sick leave either)

Contact all the people you're being told to in here and if you feel you're getting nowhere, take it to Prud'homme, which is legal employment advice, and who WILL take your employer to Court if they feel you have a case. It IS a legal organisation, which means real lawyers etc but in your position you should be able to get Legal Aid (Aide Juridictionnelle) so it shouldn't cost you too much if that's your last resort.

Whatever, anyway, SIGN NOTHING till you've had advice from all the people in the know.

Hils
 

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It might be an idea to contact your Embassy/Consulate as well and see if they can offer any kind of advice or assistance.

H
 

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Discussion Starter #12
If starting your own company is something you want, then you might want to ask for a "congé pour création d'entreprise" Le congé pour création ou reprise d'entreprise ou participation à la direction d'une "jeune entreprise innovante"
It could make your employer happy as they would no longer have to support your salary.
Hmm... very interesting... So I am still an employee but get time off to start my own company? And then later if we rupture it seems as I was an employee longer? And I am still an employee so keep my visa?

Not sure how that would work with my fiche-de-paie as I have to show them to renew my visa.

But I get no money during this period right, so I would have to have savings?


Thanks for sharing this option! Have you done this?

I also heard I can ask for longer chomage to start my own company, if I go though a rupture.

But no clue how this would work visa wise when I go to renew after chomage, with my own company. As my visa is not an entrepreneur visa.
 

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Discussion Starter #13
Thank you all! Great advice, especially where to go for legal advice.

Honestly, I super hate my job. In fact I posted a while ago seeing what options I had to leave but decided to stay as I wanted to renew my visa and stay in France.

UPDATE

I went to the DDTE (works representatives) which is at 210 Quai de Jemmapes and met with an advisor. Waited a little while, but not that bad and you can make an appt. by walking in.

I was told this would be pleasant.. it was not... I confused the guy with my questions/bad french and he ended up yelling at me a lot.

That aside I was told USUALLY its a good situation to go to DDTE, so recommend it, and they are there to advise you and even go to meetings with you, and if I go back I will just ask for another person.

He recommended:

- Accepting the rupture if I want to leave, and that I will get just as much money from this rupture as one for economic reasons (though I suspect a rupture due to economy would delay the firing due to an audit so hence more money in the end)

- Only letter necessary is the rupture form that is filled out and must be approved after 15 days of talks (you can get this from the DDTE as well). No other letter needed. And he recommended me not signing the letter given to me from my employer. This form outlines pretty clearly the process and what money (base but I could get more) I am entitled to.

- He said for me to visit: DIRECCTE if I had any questions about my visa as they know about that. He said its best to go in the morning, so I will be going tomorrow.
INFO:
19 Rue Madeleine Vionnet
93300 Aubervilliers
01.70.96.20.00

On my own, I was able to look into renewing on Chomage (also got my appt. where they give you a PDF saying what you need).

For the chomage part it says:
* copie des attestations et justifications établies par vos employeurs précédents permettant d'exercer vos droits aux prestations relatives au revenu de remplacement (article R1234-9 du code du travail) et copie du document émanant du Pôle Emploi mentionnant la période de droits ouverts)

-- I take that as showing them the papers I needed to get chomage and then the proof of chomage with the time period on it.

Anyone renew on chomage here?

I will let you all know how this visa/renewal on chomage/etc go, especially with a rupture.

Thanks again,

JR
 
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