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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
You may have seen the horrendous TV footage of police in Valencia beating up students protesting peacefully against the education cuts. Some of these kids are only 14. I was appalled last night to see two riot-shielded helmeted policemen chase after a young woman who was trying to run away from them, and hit her on the head with a baton, bringing her to the ground.

Word on the street is that the police are waiting for the injured victims to come out of hospital and taking away their medical reports so they can't file brutality claims. This is backed up by A&R staff in the hospitals. Hablar por hablar : 21-02-2012 en mp3 (21/02 a las 04:35:29) 04:31:24 1061588 - iVoox
 

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Indeed it is sickening. It reminds me of the brutality the "antidisturbios" used in Madrid during the World Youth Day celebrations last August. at 1:26
Actually, I think this is much worse!
The chief of police in Valencia called the students the enemy
There was meeting this evening between the student leader Albert Ordóñez and Paula Sánchez de León, from the PP in Valencia (not sure who she is exactly). Ordoñez said on the radio before the meeting that they were going to ask the chief of police to resign and they were going to hand over a document detailing the way police should behave when dealing with a pacific demonstration.

Newspaper article in Spanish
http://www.levante-emv.com/comunita...centro-jornada-policia-incidentes/883293.html

And English
http://storyful.com/stories/1000022400

There's lots of serious stuff behind this including real disagreement about the cuts that have been made and the way that they have been made, and of course now the parents are up in arms about the way it's being policed. No doubt there are a good number of people along for the ride, for the "fun" of it, but however you look at it there are a lot of f**k ups going on on all sides
 

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Actually, I think this is much worse!
The chief of police in Valencia called the students the enemy
There was meeting this evening between the student leader Albert Ordóñez and Paula Sánchez de León, from the PP in Valencia (not sure who she is exactly). Ordoñez said on the radio before the meeting that they were going to ask the chief of police to resign and they were going to hand over a document detailing the way police should behave when dealing with a pacific demonstration.

Newspaper article in Spanish
http://www.levante-emv.com/comunita...centro-jornada-policia-incidentes/883293.html

And English
Riot police baton-charge students at Valencia protest - storyful

There's lots of serious stuff behind this including real disagreement about the cuts that have been made and the way that they have been made, and of course now the parents are up in arms about the way it's being policed. No doubt there are a good number of people along for the ride, for the "fun" of it, but however you look at it there are a lot of f**k ups going on on all sides

Are these out-of-control police under regional or more local command?

There are elections next month, aren't there, so people have a remedy in their own hands.

If as seems likely this was purely down to extremely insensitive and inappropriate policing, the repercussions could be serious for the ruling party.

One of the issues -abeit a relatively insignificant one -that began to gnaw away at the edifice of Thatcherism in the UK in the 1980s was the brutal police handling of peaceful student protests, notably in Manchester. A lot of middle-class people who had been insulated from the more earthy style of policing practised as the norm in working-class areas found their children on the receiving end of the police boot or baton.

Describing people with legitimate grievances which they are expressing in a democratic way as the 'enemy' brings back Thatcher's description of trades unionists as 'the enemy within'. Ideologues whether of the left or right need an 'enemy' to legitimise their extreme beliefs.

The only thing that bothers me is this: as any of you who like me is a veteran of originally peaceful protests will know, these can so easily be taken over by those with a different agenda....anarchists, provocateurs or those who just come along for a punch-up. The ensuing civil disorder frightens people and plays into the hands of the forces of 'law and order'.

This poses difficulties as the right to peaceful protest is a fundamental one in any half-decent society. It's an important responsibility, not only for those responsible for stewarding the protests - and I know what a huge responsibility that is, having done so myself - but also for the wider media, to show truthfully and without fear or bias, exactly what happens at these events and the causes of any violence that may result from what in its origin is legitimate peaceful dissent.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 · (Edited)
The police are governed by the regional authority, in this case the Comunitat Valenciana. Rajoy has given them his full backing.

The protests against last week's violence appear to be having some effect:

Regional officials, including the government’s delegate in Valencia, Paula Sánchez de León, appeared to have backed down from the hardline stance taken against the students over the past few days. The Interior Ministry ordered the police to use restraint after receiving an avalanche of complaints from parents who said that there was an excessive use of force by the police, after they saw their children on television beaten, thrown around and pinned down. The students began protesting the cutbacks last Wednesday in a demonstration in front of the school, which ended with the arrest of 10 students.
http://elpais.com/elpais/2012/02/21/inenglish/1329841081_576671.html
However there is no doubt that we will see more such scenes across the country, especially when people realise that the austerity measures they are suffering will not create more jobs and prosperity. People have been patient for a long time, but their anger will grow and eventually explode. This has nothing to do with anarchist infiltrators.
 

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The police are governed by the regional authority, in this case the Comunitat Valenciana. Rajoy has given them his full backing.

The protests against last week's violence appear to be having some effect:



However there is no doubt that we will see more such scenes across the country, especially when people realise that the austerity measures they are suffering will not create more jobs and prosperity. People have been patient for a long time, but their anger will grow and eventually explode. This has nothing to do with anarchist infiltrators.
It was reported yeasterday that there was far less of a police presence than the day before. There is going to be an investigation , but...

There were large demonstrations across the country in support of the students yesterday evening.

As pointed out by mrypg9 on other threads, a lot of the people who are demonstrating are those who actually voted the PP in. However, as they didn't reveal their programme before the elections, this is the surprise that they had waiting for them!
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
It was reported yeasterday that there was far less of a police presence than the day before. There is going to be an investigation , but...

There were large demonstrations across the country in support of the students yesterday evening.

As pointed out by mrypg9 on other threads, a lot of the people who are demonstrating are those who actually voted the PP in. However, as they didn't reveal their programme before the elections, this is the surprise that they had waiting for them!
The PSOE would have made the same cuts though. In fact most of the recent labour reform bill was drawn up by Zappy.
 

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The PSOE would have made the same cuts though. In fact most of the recent labour reform bill was drawn up by Zappy.
I'm not saying otherwise. All I'm saying is that politicians don't always do what their voters expect them to.:) Surprise!
For example the one thing Rajoy did say was that he wasn't going to touch taxes, and what did he do?????????????????
 

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The police are governed by the regional authority, in this case the Comunitat Valenciana. Rajoy has given them his full backing.

The protests against last week's violence appear to be having some effect:



However there is no doubt that we will see more such scenes across the country, especially when people realise that the austerity measures they are suffering will not create more jobs and prosperity. People have been patient for a long time, but their anger will grow and eventually explode. This has nothing to do with anarchist infiltrators.



Not yet. Sadly that will no doubt sooner or later be the case, as we've seen in Barcelona and most other cities in Europe.

Of course people who are affected by the cuts will become angry. They will exercise their right, peacefully, I hope, to show that anger by marches and demonstrations.
At what point, in view of what number of protestors, should these demonstrations affect policy so soon after an election where under the accepted system a majority voted for the party that has implemented them, and might do again in next month's elections?

Will the explosive anger be that of a majority? Or merely that of a large and disaffected minority? At what point should a Government understand it has forfeited majority support and should change policy or resign?

I'm asking these questions, not to be awkward, but because in the past it would never occurred to me that they were indeed legitimate questions. I thought everything Mrs T. did was wrong and should be rescinded. The voting public sadly saw things differently.

I don't think that the labour reforms are sufficient in that they will create a huge number of jobs - the Government has said that. I do think they will help PYMES and make it easier for those who can to take on staff and those who are struggling to shed unaffordable labour. I'm glad Rajoy will adopt the FTT, although it will raise much less revenue than in the UK.

Pretending the figures were worse than in reality was an act of sheer stupidity, though, and will result quite rightly in censure and a fine.

And education budgets should NEVER be cut if a nation is to grow and prosper socially and economically. There may be a need for rigorous examination and redirection of funding within the overall budget but cuts...a definite no-no.
 

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I'm not saying otherwise. All I'm saying is that politicians don't always do what their voters expect them to.:) Surprise!
For example the one thing Rajoy did say was that he wasn't going to touch taxes, and what did he do?????????????????

You know and I know and anyone who knows that two and two make four know that Rajoy has very little control over economic policy. Perhaps he knows it?

We are in a vicious circle caused entirely by the vacuous neo-liberal economic policies nearly all European Governments adopted to some degree. The markets rule and the markets set yields on any Government that wants to raise money to stimulate growth.
Until we find a means of releasing ourselves from the grip of the markets the mistaken policy of austerity will prevail.

To me the fundamental question is: by what means can any nation state release itself from this iron grip without plunging the country into an even worse state?
I have yet to hear of any feasible way to do this. We all wish we weren't where we are. But how to put the 'social' back into the market without a massive increase on bond yields?

The political class of Europe since the 1980s, whether left or right, should be put in the dock of public opinion. The charge against them: being seduced by the illusory charms of neo-liberalism/neo-conservatism.

Consider Greece: having accepted the bail-out they face years of austerity which means their economic situation cannot improve. Greece needs growth but it's impossible when jobs are being shed, public spending drastically cut..

Yet the alternative, a default whether structured or chaotic would be equally disastrous, perhaps even worse for ordinary Greeks. Exit from the eurozone (opposed by almost 78% of Greeks who want to keep the euro) would mean huge capital flight, a run on the banks, imposition of martial law,lack of any government funds to pay pensions, wages, keep hospitals, schools and other basic services running.

If you or I had done to a business what previous Greek Governments, aided and abetted by Goldman Sachs with the full knowledge and connivance of Brussels, did to their country and its people,we'd be in the dock charged with serious financial fraud and malpractice.

As it is, they are still hovering around like vultures waiting to return to office and the people are now about to suffer for decades for their mistakes. The fact that many of the Greek people enjoyed the good times without considering that the loans that enabled it all would have to be paid back doesn't excuse those whom promoted the policies in Government or absolve them from guilt.
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
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Not yet. Sadly that will no doubt sooner or later be the case, as we've seen in Barcelona and most other cities in Europe.
I don't think Spain can be compared with the UK where such groups are regarded as separate from the mainstream. There are anarchists, atheists, anti-abortionists and many other groups with their own political agendas but they are just part of the crowd. The CNT, for example, is an affiliation of anarcho-syndicalist trade unions and is perfectly respectable.

Nonetheless the government will claim that there are infiltrators inciting violence, in order to justify its own violent response, as happened with 15-M in Barcelona when they got actors to pretend to attack the police.

Interesting article here, if you have time.
South Of Watford: Gallardón The Moderate
 

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I don't think Spain can be compared with the UK where such groups are regarded as separate from the mainstream. There are anarchists, atheists, anti-abortionists and many other groups with their own political agendas but they are just part of the crowd. The CNT, for example, is an affiliation of anarcho-syndicalist trade unions and is perfectly respectable.

Nonetheless the government will claim that there are infiltrators inciting violence, in order to justify its own violent response, as happened with 15-M in Barcelona when they got actors to pretend to attack the police.

Interesting article here, if you have time.
South Of Watford: Gallardón The Moderate

That was interesting ..thanks.:)
The fact that any politician can even think of let alone openly suggest a private police force beggars belief.

I read two interesting pieces today about the Euro-debt crisis but I have no idea how to point you to them other than to say I found and read them via the Guardian and Independent reporting on the Euro-crisis.

One refers to a comment made by a former Polish Finance Minister who points out that the Greek economy has been in recession for five years and output fell by 7% last year...so how can it be expected to grow with the additional cuts required by the latest package? He suggests a moratorium on all Greek debt and an ECB interest-free loan.

The second was a comment about Christine Lagarde playing hardball with Germany and the ECB as she is allegedly (and hopefully) being influenced by the advice of her Deputy and Advisor one David Lipton (former Obama economics assistant) that austerity will not work, will worsen the situation and should not be pursued as a policy.

Not sure how much Mr. Lipton is being paid for his advice but since you, I and others have been pointing out in our differing ways for months now that austerity can't and won't work, maybe we deserve a few financial crumbs from his table??

As for the electors of Valencia....hopefully they will think deeply before casting their votes next month. I can't believe that a majority of them will vote to continue such a corrupt, immoral and hopelessly incompetent regime.
 

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I did hear, somewhere, that the Falangists were building up and these tactics remind me of them. I just don't trust the PP (nor their counterparts in the UK or the USA)) - they seem to have hidden agendas that involve certain class-supremacy aspirations of the type that led to the Republic, the October Revolution, the French Revolution, et al. In the case of the USA it means changing "We the people" to "You the people"! and I suspect that it would involve something similar on this side of the pond.
 

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I did hear, somewhere, that the Falangists were building up and these tactics remind me of them. I just don't trust the PP (nor their counterparts in the UK or the USA)) - they seem to have hidden agendas that involve certain class-supremacy aspirations of the type that led to the Republic, the October Revolution, the French Revolution, et al. In the case of the USA it means changing "We the people" to "You the people"! and I suspect that it would involve something similar on this side of the pond.

I know I'm beginning to sound obsessive but I really do believe in a vast right-wing conspiracy orginiating in the United States in the Carter era. It gained influence in the Reagan era, waned a little under Bush Senior and resurfaced in a very influential way under brain-dead G.W. Bush.

It actually produced a master-plan, Project for an American Century. Its most important and influential members like Condoleeza Rice, Paul Wolfowitz, Dick Cheney and their ilk, bankrolled by billionaires such as Richard Mellon Scarfe, were instrumental in pushing Bush into attacking Iraq against the advice and inclination of comparative moderates like Colin Powell.

They were also behind the scheme to impeach Clinton and of course behind the promotion of the Chicago School economic free market theories that have landed us in the mierdo we are now in.

There are various sinister U.S. foundations which are funded by religious and political right-wing extremists to promote the cause of American world domination: the American Heritage Foundation and the Thatcher Foundation being just two of them.

To prove I'm not going mad....there is an excellent book, 'The Clinton WArs', which spells it out in great detail, and a book about the chaos in Iraq policy, 'Fiasco' by Thomas someone...can't remember the name and can't locate the book.

Found it!! It's Thomas E. Ricks. An illuminating read.
 

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I know I'm beginning to sound obsessive but I really do believe in a vast right-wing conspiracy orginiating in the United States in the Carter era. It gained influence in the Reagan era, waned a little under Bush Senior and resurfaced in a very influential way under brain-dead G.W. Bush.

They were also behind the scheme to impeach Clinton and of course behind the promotion of the Chicago School economic free market theories that have landed us in the mierdo we are now in.

There are various sinister U.S. foundations which are funded by religious and political right-wing extremists to promote the cause of American world domination: the American Heritage Foundation and the Thatcher Foundation being just two of them.

To prove I'm not going mad....there is an excellent book, 'The Clinton WArs', which spells it out in great detail, and a book about the chaos in Iraq policy, 'Fiasco' by Thomas someone...can't remember the name and can't locate the book.

Found it!! It's Thomas E. Ricks. An illuminating read.
I don't think you are obsessive and I'm very much inclined to agree with you (Mods, where the hell is that "grovel,grovel" emoticon?) There was, after all a very large pro-Nazi element in the USA who were pro-Hitler and, by association pro Franco and pro-Mussolini. Of course many of them used as their excuse that the fascists (being on the extreme right) were, by definition, anti-Communist.

It actually produced a master-plan, Project for an American Century. Its most important and influential members like Condoleeza Rice, Paul Wolfowitz, Dick Cheney and their ilk, bankrolled by billionaires such as Richard Mellon Scarfe, were instrumental in pushing Bush into attacking Iraq against the advice and inclination of comparative moderates like Colin Powell.
Consider the following:
Dubya to the head of the CIA: You tell me that there are WMDs in Iran, {aside} what's that ? Sorry I meant Iraq, and I'll order our boys to go in and get that s.o.a.b Soddem, {aside} what's that? Sorry, I meant Saddam.
Tenet (Director of Intelligence): Mr President, as requested "There are WMDs in Iraq."
Dubya: I'll send our boys in. Get Tiny, sorry Tony on the phone in London....

From Plan of Attack by Bob Woodward:
Tenet privately lent his personal authority to the intelligence reports about weapons of mass destruction (WMDs) in Iraq. At a meeting on December 12, 2002, he assured Bush that the evidence against Saddam Hussein amounted to a "slam dunk case." After several months of refusing to confirm this statement, Tenet later stated that this remark was taken out of context. (Tenet indicated that the comment was made pursuant to a discussion about how to convince the American people to support invading Iraq, and that, in his opinion, the best way to convince the people would be by explaining the dangers posed by Iraq's WMD i.e., the public relations sale of the war via the WMD, according to Tenet, would be a "slam dunk")
 
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