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Reading the comments on bullfighting and the idea of Chopera on what is better for a bull, a rich and happy life or like milk fed lambs,etc.,
What would you prefer? To be born poor but have more than enough to die comfortably or to have it all while young and to hell with old age?
 

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Reading the comments on bullfighting and the idea of Chopera on what is better for a bull, a rich and happy life or like milk fed lambs,etc.,
What would you prefer? To be born poor but have more than enough to die comfortably or to have it all while young and to hell with old age?
to have it all while I'm young and to hell with old age........ although I'm not that young anymore, but definitely to hell with old age

Jo xxx
 

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Discussion Starter #3
Jojo

to have it all while I'm young and to hell with old age........ although I'm not that young anymore, but definitely to hell with old age

Jo xxx
I would agree that to hell with old age, cos I am well on my way, but I was thinking along the lines of people living on a Brit State Pension with little else but because of circumstances found that their youth had been oh so comfortable and now had to check every penny.
 

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Most pensioners seem pretty affluent now. They are out and about everywhere in the UK. When they are not abroad taking cruises etc.
 

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Everything is relative. Many pensioners can live well on less than they needed when young, and when a big house, fast and fancy car, and shopping till you dropped mattered. If all you need is food, nice company, inexpensive fun and some travel you might appear well off.

Cruises: if you have to cross the Atlantic and you have all the time in the world, taking a transatlantic cruise, which costs nominally only a bit more than a plane ticket, beats flying. You get a comfortable cabin, get fed pretty well for a week, get entertained and meet a bunch of people - most of them in a good mood, thus pleasant, instead of being squeezed like a sardine in an overcrowded airplane for over 12 hours during which you pass 6 time zones.
Is that being affluent?
 

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Words like 'rich' and 'poor' are meaningless in themselves as they are relative. I am richer than my mother , poorer than my son.
We are all of us richer than most people in Somalia. Most of us are poorer than the obscenely wealthy one percent who own nearly all the world's wealth.
I am neither rich nor poor by most standards, perhaps a little better off than some as I don't have to worry about maintaining property or keeping an inheritance for my son and grandchildren. They are doing quite nicely without my money.
Personally, I believe in living within your means at all stages of life. I'm uber-cautious, have always saved but equally have enjoyed spending what I could afford to. My first words of advice to new entrants to my workplace were : join the union and stat a savings plan.
It's bad enough being old without having to watch and account for every cent or penny. So imo it's sensible to provide for a reasonably secure old age.
Unfortunately, the opportunities for doing that are as available to people now as they were thirty or more years ago. It's true what Isobella says, most pensioners aren't that badly off, especially compared to some young people these days....but far too many worry how to pay the electricity or gas bill. We hear a lot about 'gold-plated final salary pension schemes' in the public sector but in fact the average public sector pension is under £5000 a year.
My mum rarely earned enough for luxuries. Chars don't get fat salaries, bonuses or golden handshakes. But she lived well in her council maisonette rent paid by Housing Benefit and with her basic pension supplemented and of course Winter Fuel Payment. But she gave up smoking, didn't drink and had fairly simple tastes, although she liked good quality things.
She was poor by UK standards but immensely rich by the standards of most of Africa and Asia.
 

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Most pensioners seem pretty affluent now. They are out and about everywhere in the UK. When they are not abroad taking cruises etc.
But you can't make a generalised judgement based on the ones you see "out and about". It's the same as those people who say Spain can't be that badly off because the bars are always full. The ones who can't afford to go out, the invisible ones, don't get into the picture unless there's some news story about food banks or neglect in care homes.
 

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But you can't make a generalised judgement based on the ones you see "out and about". It's the same as those people who say Spain can't be that badly off because the bars are always full. The ones who can't afford to go out, the invisible ones, don't get into the picture unless there's some news story about food banks or neglect in care homes.
But you can talk about majorities and minorities and make comparisons.
There are some facts, such as that in the UK a minority of pensioners are in difficult economic straits whereas the majority are not. I don't think that will be the case in the future.
In Spain, 25% are unemployed, a dreadful figure indeed. But 75% have work, albeit in many cases with low pay, insecurity and long hours.
The problem with some sections of the Left is that they focus on the undoubtedly existing misery and paint a picture that isn't generally valid. That was imo partly a mistake made by Labour in the last election.
You can indeed make a generalised judgment that overall, retired people are better off now than, say, fifty years ago. Of course there are too many exceptions, some the result of illness or family circumstances, others through fecklessness.
To help the minority and bring about this 'social justice' often spoken of the support of the majority is needed.
Some of us know there is a massive obscene gap between the truly wealthy few and the rest of us. But the truth is that most ordinary people feel they are better off because they compare themselves with the lives of their families of say thirty or more years ago.
That again may not be the case in future.
This may be 'false consciousness' but it forms people's thoughts and general mindset.
 

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Now this is of practical help, something I've suggested on this Forum many times:

El nuevo Gobierno andaluz de Susana Díaz se ha estrenado este viernes con la aprobación de medidas contra los desahucios, becas para los títulos de idioma universitarios y el rechazo a la proposición de ley sobre Cuentas Abiertas presentada por Podemos y a la de Cámara Cuentas promovida por IU. La primera actuación permitirá a la Junta de Andalucía comprar casas cuya hipotecas sean ejecutadas por los bancos y que afecten, en determinadas zonas, a familias en riesgo de exclusión social y sin alternativas
 

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But you can talk about majorities and minorities and make comparisons.
There are some facts, such as that in the UK a minority of pensioners are in difficult economic straits whereas the majority are not. I don't think that will be the case in the future.
In Spain, 25% are unemployed, a dreadful figure indeed. But 75% have work, albeit in many cases with low pay, insecurity and long hours.
The problem with some sections of the Left is that they focus on the undoubtedly existing misery and paint a picture that isn't generally valid. That was imo partly a mistake made by Labour in the last election.
You can indeed make a generalised judgment that overall, retired people are better off now than, say, fifty years ago. Of course there are too many exceptions, some the result of illness or family circumstances, others through fecklessness.
To help the minority and bring about this 'social justice' often spoken of the support of the majority is needed.
Some of us know there is a massive obscene gap between the truly wealthy few and the rest of us. But the truth is that most ordinary people feel they are better off because they compare themselves with the lives of their families of say thirty or more years ago.
That again may not be the case in future.
This may be 'false consciousness' but it forms people's thoughts and general mindset.
An estimated 1.6 million pensioners in the UK live below the poverty line (defined as <60% of the national average), largely because out of pride or ignorance, they don't claim benefits they are entitled to.

I've no idea how many pensioners can afford to go on cruises. Presumably the ones who can had good final salary pension schemes or did well on property values or didn't have any kids. (I'm fortunate to come into that category, which is why I was able to retire ten years early and move to Spain - I think I would get acute claustrophobia on a cruise ship).

I imagine most pensioners fall somewhere in between, able to get by at a pinch. But it's wrong to adopt an "out of sight, out of mind" attitude to the less lucky ones, and the Labour Party shouldn't go down that road. It can never be valid to avoid upsetting voters by giving them uncomfortable truths.
 

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Now this is of practical help, something I've suggested on this Forum many times:

El nuevo Gobierno andaluz de Susana Díaz se ha estrenado este viernes con la aprobación de medidas contra los desahucios, becas para los títulos de idioma universitarios y el rechazo a la proposición de ley sobre Cuentas Abiertas presentada por Podemos y a la de Cámara Cuentas promovida por IU. La primera actuación permitirá a la Junta de Andalucía comprar casas cuya hipotecas sean ejecutadas por los bancos y que afecten, en determinadas zonas, a familias en riesgo de exclusión social y sin alternativas
Yes, a lot better than simply "stopping evictions". I wonder if there's a plan whereby the families can take over the mortgage again if they become able to, and who pays for the maintenance costs, community fees, etc in the meantime?
 

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An estimated 1.6 million pensioners in the UK live below the poverty line (defined as <60% of the national average), largely because out of pride or ignorance, they don't claim benefits they are entitled to.

I've no idea how many pensioners can afford to go on cruises. Presumably the ones who can had good final salary pension schemes or did well on property values or didn't have any kids. (I'm fortunate to come into that category, which is why I was able to retire ten years early and move to Spain - I think I would get acute claustrophobia on a cruise ship).

I imagine most pensioners fall somewhere in between, able to get by at a pinch. But it's wrong to adopt an "out of sight, out of mind" attitude to the less lucky ones, and the Labour Party shouldn't go down that road. It can never be valid to avoid upsetting voters by giving them uncomfortable truths.
We've talked before about that 60% figure. I have searched and searched and asked in various quarters but no-one can explain why that figure was set at 60% and not 40%, 50%, 70% or any other percentage. So it really tells us nothing. My mother would have come under that definition but it would be ludicrous to say she lived 'in poverty'. She would also have been very offended.
The same with the definition of poverty. A lot depends on what you think constitutes poverty, doesn't it.
No, you shouldn't hide 'uncomfortable truths'. But neither should the extent of poverty and hardship in a wealthy country like Britain be overestimated. Most retired people live comfortable if not luxurious lives with, let us not forget, housing and other welfare benefits and access to all kinds of services for the elderly and of course free health care.
It can be pointless 'upsetting' voters by exaggerating the extent of poverty amongst all groups in the UK. People look around and judge by what they see. Sometimes they see people in genuine hardship through no fault of their own. Sometimes they see people in trouble because of feckless behaviour or bad choices.
And if people don't feel moved enough to vote for a reforming Party nothing will be done anyway.
I'm interested to see how the new Cadiz Alcalde will ' abolish poverty'.
 

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Yes, a lot better than simply "stopping evictions". I wonder if there's a plan whereby the families can take over the mortgage again if they become able to, and who pays for the maintenance costs, community fees, etc in the meantime?
I should imagine that some level of rent would be payable and yes, I hope that the families will be able to resume the mortgage payments when they get on their feet.
It's a win-win situation: the JdA gets property at knock-down prices, the lenders get some return, the families get housed.
Our HA bought repossessed properties on the open market to rehouse families on the waiting list. We bought 'in bulk' so got good deals for the ratepayers of our borough as well as helping families get roofs over their heads.
That's my idea of sensible, practical politics.
As it says on my mobile's PSOE screensaver: Ser socialista es hacer'.
I find it amusing to be described as a 'socialista'and 'militante' as I'm neither...:D
 
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