Expat Forum For People Moving Overseas And Living Abroad banner
Status
Not open for further replies.
1 - 20 of 26 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
39 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I understand that you need to prove 3x the monthly rent in income for most landlords to agree to lease to you.

My question is, is this before or after taxes? Makes a big difference! I have been calculating what we can afford based on pre-tax salary but uh oh, maybe I need to be basing it on take-home pay?

Salary will be $75K Euro, maybe someone living in Paris can tell me what I can afford, we are OK with spending the max allowable on an apartment to live in a good neighborhood, we are also looking for a furnished place for the 1st year and those are more $$.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
39 Posts
Discussion Starter · #2 ·
Did I put this in the wrong place? I am viewing the forum and it doesn't seem to show up, I finally found it by looking at "unanswered posts"

Forgive me if I'm being stupid :)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
39 Posts
Discussion Starter · #3 ·
34 views and no responses, seems like a simple enough question, no? sorry if it's a dumb one but can someone please respond, am not finding the answer anywhere else.
 

·
Administrator
Joined
·
51,610 Posts
I'm not sure, but I believe they consider gross income (i.e. before cotisations). In any event, the cotisations taken out of a paycheck in France are pretty consistently 20 - 25% of gross.

The French don't take income taxes out of your paycheck. Income taxes are considered a very private matter and the way the French tax system works, it would be a sort of violation of your privacy to have your employer get involved in the process.
Cheers,
Bev
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
39 Posts
Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Thanks for your answer. So you get paid your full salary and must save up your money for paying income tax at the end of the year? Don't they take a chunk out of everyone's check for the "secu"?
 

·
Administrator
Joined
·
51,610 Posts
Thanks for your answer. So you get paid your full salary and must save up your money for paying income tax at the end of the year? Don't they take a chunk out of everyone's check for the "secu"?
The "secu" are the social insurances - health, retirement and a few others. That's the 20 - 25% that are called "cotisations." Cotisations are taken out of your salary - so figure on having 75 to 80% of your gross salary in hand each month.

Income taxes are done on a delayed basis that sounds tricky, but once you get used to it, works out pretty well. The first year, you pay no taxes - then you file your declaration in May of the following calendar year. You get your tax bill in August or early September, and then pay what you owe over the next few months (not sure how long they string it out). Then you start making monthly payments based on your last tax bill toward the next year's bill.
Cheers,
Bev
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
39 Posts
Discussion Starter · #7 ·
OK, I think I understand! that's great that for the first year we will not have to worry about it. I should look at exactly how much tax is currently being taken out of our checks here in the U.S. to compare with the cotisations. I think it is roughly the same amount.

Another question: they don't take out anything for retirement, do they? I know the system is quite different over there.
 

·
Administrator
Joined
·
51,610 Posts
OK, I think I understand! that's great that for the first year we will not have to worry about it. I should look at exactly how much tax is currently being taken out of our checks here in the U.S. to compare with the cotisations. I think it is roughly the same amount.

Another question: they don't take out anything for retirement, do they? I know the system is quite different over there.
Oh yes they certainly do. In fact, the bulk of that 20 - 25% they take out is for retirement. It's not a savings plan like in the US, it's the state retirement program, which is a two-tier arrangement. Look on your pay slip for "veilllesse" under sécu sociale or URSSAF and ARRCO, AGFF, AGIRC, depending on your precise job category.
Cheers,
Bev
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
39 Posts
Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Sorry Bev, I missed the reference to retirement in your first reply about the secu! D'oh!

Very interesting.

So I've been obsessively looking at all of these apartment rental sites, paristay, Paris Attitude, lodgis.com. I just wish I knew someone who could tell me more about this type of rental - i.e. renting a furnished place, in advance, from a big agency instead of arriving on the spot in Paris and renting direct from an owner and furnishing ourselves.

I don't want the hassle of furnishing an apt. and since I don't know Paris well yet, I don't want to commit to the 3 year lease. So it is worth it to spend more for an agency that will provide us an apartment with everything included. But are these agencies going to make us keep to the 30% of salary limitation? That means we have to find something $1875/month or less. That seems to be doable but I feel that we could spend more, esp. since we will most likely have other (smallish) income streams coming in, but only my husband's main job will 'count' towards the lease.

Nothing online seems to address my concerns...I guess some things you just have to find out by doing. I haven't contacted the rental agencies yet (besides perusing their websites in great detail) because we won't have our relocation funds available 'til May, so no use getting set on a particular place right now. But I am chomping at the bit to get our new life started.

My husband's employer is apparently going to take care of all the carte de sejour paperwork etc. and he said I will have a work permit? I don't really understand this but whatever, that's nice :)

thank you for reading my posts, I don't have anyone 'IRL' to discuss these things with who knows anything about France...and no French contacts either, at least not current...
 

·
Administrator
Joined
·
51,610 Posts
Renting a furnished place may be somewhat less rule-bound than renting an unfurnished place. Legally, a furnished flat falls under the same laws as renting a hotel room or gite, not comparable to a residential lease. That has its advantages and disadvantages.

Do take a look at the ads for rental agencies in the FUSAC, too. F U S A C There are lots of rental agencies in Paris that do business with the anglophone crowd, some of which are operated by expats. And actually, it's kind of standard practice when relocating someone internationally for the employer to pay for up to 3 months or so of temporary accommodation until you have a chance to figure out where you might want to stay for the longer term.

Interesting about the work permit for you. It may involve the employer employing you on some basis to get you the work permit, but as far as I know, that's about the only way to get one on entry like that. Still, depending on who the employer is and who they know, anything is possible in France.
Cheers,
Bev
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
39 Posts
Discussion Starter · #12 ·
I've been checking FUSAC - I've got a regular laundry list of apt. websites that I check obsessively, lol...

There was one listing on seloger.com today which scared me, they want you to make 4x the rent + charges...NET.

If they are figuring income based on *net* salary and not gross, we are going to have problems finding an apartment in the 14th like we want. My obsessive apartment window-shopping has given me a very good idea of what the rents are like. Yikes.

So maybe the banlieue for us...lol

Anyone who can tell me definitively whether their landlord used gross or net income when figuring whether you could afford the apt., I'd so appreciate it!

Re the work permit, I am pretty sure my husband misunderstood about that.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
33 Posts
Hi Isabelle/Solange,

i will give you my two pents worth with all of this.My husband and i have just rented a 2 BR apt in paris(saint germain en laye)in the western suburbs. like you i was going crazy looking at all these websites.I would recommend the best way to rent somewhere is to go there and look in the area you wish to live. rent a furnished short term place for a month or so and get out there and look. we found it easier that way..and we went to a few agents in the area we wanted to live and saw lots of places and found one....
regarding the prices and what you earn etc...all i can tell you is what the landlord looks for and this is usual employment checks,passports, bank statements etc. now because neither my husband and i are french we had to have a years rent to show in our accounts as a gaurantee of the rental. we took the usual 3 yr unfurnished rental..if you can find a french person to be a gaurantor for you will will also be enough. if you have to pay the money like we did, it goes into your bank account,well the bank make a separate account for it and it is stored there until you vacate the apt.the bank will give you a reciept of this to give to your landlord.its all very confusing but doable..and dont be too worried about taking a 3 year contract you can break it with two months notice,if you are leaving your job or the area where you work...its so different to the Uk or ireland but you can do it it just takes bit more time...and rents are high in comparison but it is paris!!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
33 Posts
[Sorry forgot to add, for us the landlord looked at gross salary...am sure thats the case for most people.

good luck!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
39 Posts
Discussion Starter · #15 ·
Oh Lizy, so glad about the gross salary!! an apt. where we have decided we'd most like to live should be quite doable w/ gross but not so much with net, you know?

That's interesting about having a year's rent in the bank. I was thinking about the guarantor problem and my husband was thinking that perhaps his employer could be the guarantor. Does it have to be a person or can the institute he will be working for provide a guarantee of some sort?

I'd love to hear more about St.-Germain-en-Laye, too. I know nothing about the suburbs and it's hard to find much info online. My problem with some of the apts. I've looked at online is that it's hard to get a sense of the neighborhoods and most of what I've seen seems newer, less dense. We won't have a car (at least not at first but I'd prefer *never* to own another car) and I have a strong strong preference not to live anywhere where I'd need a car. DH will be working inside Paris so he'll need easy public transportation there. But I'm not categorically opposed to living in the suburbs, just questioning whether it will work for us.
To speak to Bev's earlier point about employers giving 3 months temporary accomodation, we are getting around 10K euros in relocation expenses, and the plan was to spend most of that on the deposit etc. for an apt. and the rest on airfare and shipping what belongings we plan to bring from the U.S. (which isn't a lot - we are certainly not bringing furniture or anything, but I know shipping is expensive). 3 months of rent on a temporary place would sort of erase our deposit money, and of course we could just plan to come up with that on our own but I don't like the idea of living somewhere for 3 months and then having to move, especially with a 5-yo. She would just be getting used to the new place and bam! we'd be moving again. Moving house even in the same neighborhood is tough on kids.

So that's another reason why I'm anxious to rent a place for at least a year, but I'm happy to hear reasons why I should reconsider.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
33 Posts
hi
yes we were told it certainly can be the institute your husband is working for to be the gaurantor if they agree. im not so sure how easy this is. My husband came to paris to do a medical course with a uni so our situation was different...

saint germain en laye is a really nice neighbourhood with lots of american and brittish expats living here. its on ReR line A. If you have a map of the RER lines you will see where about it is. In the western suburbs there are alot of nice areas like Vesinet, Le Pecq...my husband works in paris in saint placide,it takes him about 40-50 mins to get to work in the morning once getting on the train.rents are a little expensive in the western suburbs though. we have a 2 BR apt for 1500euro,although its in a lovely courtyard setting with car parking,so its private and quiet...saint germain has a beautiful big park and lots of nice shops and coffe shops. google saint germain en laye and you will see all it has to offer..

Hope this helps
Liz.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
594 Posts
Furnished flats are not necessarily more expensive as landlords are looking for a long-term rent which is extremely rare situation.
Rent x 3 is the rule for the income, sometimes X 4.

That is why French people live in cages. Paris is extremely peculiar in this regard. Fake salary slips are common just for the purpose of securing a flat. Flat sharing other option.

Living far from city center not always cheaper. Just larger flats, agreed. Longer travel as well.
pap.fr is a good way to start.

Best
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
44 Posts
there are a ton of services in Paris that will help you and your partner adapt in the new environment. you can try to go through them and see if you can find a furnished apt. The 10K that you are receiving from the employer is great! and for an expat they might even provide additional monthly allowance for an apt.

we used pap.fr (no agents, just individuals) to find our apt without the 3X salary requirement. but my husband is french and we had some furniture to move in, stove, fridge, etc (as the French apts come completely empty.) and if you have a year worth of rent, you can set up an account (don't remember the name) where that money is locked for the apt rent... then you won't need somebody to guarantee your rental.

75K is a good salary for France.

also, if you are shipping just boxes... you can probably do it between 1-2K. I shipped around 20 boxes and I believe it was around 1K for everything.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
594 Posts
Thanks Lizzy and Dashenka,

Yes indeed, the best is to roam around in the area you wish to live.
As for Western suburbs Neuilly, Boulogne, Levallois, Courbevoie, Issy or even Suresne or Rueil are nice suburbs in a closer vicinity to Paris. My best bet would be Issy which has undergone a rapid transformation with nice new building programmes of higher standards. Versailles and surroudings also extremely popular with anglo-saxon families.
Location appartement 2 pièces Issy-Les-Moulineaux - 46 m² - 1.100 euros | PAP

St Germain is extremely popular, but 40 to 60 mn away in car (that is when there is no traffic) and not less than 35 mn with RER A (from the train station). St Germain has a very nice environment and posh family atmosphere which makes it extremely popular with foreign and French families alike. It is also close to nice place of interest and relaxation, large heritage place and woods. I would strongly recommend it for family with young children 'till age 11 or 12. Older children would certainly prefer to be inside Paris or at least closer...

Good hunting
 
1 - 20 of 26 Posts
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top