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Hi All,

I have been renting in Melbourne close to the city (Brunswick) over a year now, and I love living to the city. However I do not have enough money to put a down payment on decent house near the CBD (average price of a decent family home is now an easy (1 million and above). We all know the prices are crazy. So I wanted to get opinions on what's the best way to step into the property market ?

Some options:

1) Keep renting and save for a decent downpayment on a the house of your dreams close to the city.
2) Suck it up and buy a house 25-35 Kms out and get the the decent sized house (4BD, 500+sqm) you want in the outer suburbs for (450k-500k) (and also add an hour to your daily commute).
3) Buy a smaller house/apartment (450k - 500K) in the city and pay that off in the next 10 years, sell that and get ANOTHER mortgage for a new property.
4) Buy land now and build later.
5) Buy a house and land package.

NOTE: Everyone has different tastes and needs from a property. I am aiming to have a general discussion with new and old expats who faced the daunting task of buying their first property in Melbourne or Sydney, what did they choose to do and why.

Thank you, looking forward to hearing from you all.
 

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Just a few minutes ago I was reading this: House prices: Lindsay David, Philip Soos predict property ‘bloodbath’ and came across your thread. Maybe just rent for a bit more and wait it out.

#4- I am not sure if it is still there, but from what I had read long back, PR holders can buy land but have to start construction under a year. Is that still the case?
 

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Be realistic. In order to buy a house in Sydney for 800k a couple of years ago, my relatives had to buy a good distance out of the city, use all their savings, borrow more than 500k and accept a gift from family of 100k. They are in their thirties and both have positions paying over 80k per year.
Many locals benefit from inheritance often from grandparents who have bought properties many years ago. Many Anglo Aussies give their kids substantial help but you will often not hear about this as there is still a strong British type aversion to discussing money.
I suggest buying an investment property and continuing to rent in an area you prefer. I would generally buy a house as strata fees can be very expensive. (my son has a levy of 50k coming up.) You will get tax benefits from the investment, will not get left behind in the market and down the track you can sell, add more money and perhaps buy in your desired location.
Many generations of Australians have had to accept living in the suburbs and commuting.
I do not believe there will be a property crash. The social factors here are very strong.
 

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Property in Australia, and in Sydney and many parts of Melbourne in particular, are massively overvalued. If you go to auctions (as I do), you'll see that a lot of the people buying houses right now in these two cities are investors, both domestic and foreign. Their deep pockets coupled with historically low interest rates are driving up the price of houses and driving developers to bring really crappy products in the form of shoebox-sized apartments and units in high-demand inner city areas glossed up with fancy names and marketing materials.

Don't buy a house because you think you have to to live here. You don't. (And don't listen to the politicians here who say vile things like the reason you can't buy a property is because you don't have a good enough job and all you need to do is "get a better job". Right, that's the problem...) Buying a property is a long-term commitment and if you do buy, you need to anticipate that you might have to hang on to it for a long time to get any decent return from it. The people who keep saying that the prices are just going to keep going up and up and up are fooling themselves. If Australia falls into a recession, if interest rates go up, if investors stop entering the market - well, I'm sure you can figure out where things might head when it comes to property values. Look at what happened in the US. Yes, a lot of that had to do with banks providing dodgy loans, but when interest rates increased, so too did foreclosures and house prices dropped like a rock. Their property values were being propped up by the massive demand for housing by people who were getting easy loans. Of course, the situation in Australia is different but a lot of the demand in the capitals is being driven almost exclusively by investors with lots of $ to spend. That's not going to last forever.

There's nothing wrong with renting. Sure, it might not be as stable as owning - but it's much cheaper. Not just in terms of rent vs mortgage payments, but you need to factor in the cost of maintenance, insurance, strata fees for units, rates, not to mention utilities. If your reason for buying is because you think you'll make a quick buck, think again. If you have $400-500K lying around, you're better off investing in the stock market. The S&P gives a much better return than housing. The reason you invest in housing is because you need a place to live. But you already have that if you're renting.

On the subject of buying an apartment - in Melbourne, I think this is a terrible, terrible idea. I work in the real estate sector and I know that there are thousands of units coming to market in the next 3-5 years. There's already a glut of units as rents are actually dropping for units in buildings built in the past few years. The glut will get even worse. Prices on these are going to drop like crazy.

I'm not saying that the entire property market is going to crash, but you're going to see some corrections in the near future in certain markets. Other markets are going to flatten out and still others will see massive drops in value (I'm thinking these outer suburban areas on the fringe with no amenities and where you have to drive for 10 minutes just to get milk).

The upshot of all this is this - buy a house or an apartment because you like it and you want to live there. Don't buy something because you think you HAVE to.
 

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Property in Australia, and in Sydney and many parts of Melbourne in particular, are massively overvalued. If you go to auctions (as I do), you'll see that a lot of the people buying houses right now in these two cities are investors, both domestic and foreign. Their deep pockets coupled with historically low interest rates are driving up the price of houses and driving developers to bring really crappy products in the form of shoebox-sized apartments and units in high-demand inner city areas glossed up with fancy names and marketing materials.

Don't buy a house because you think you have to to live here. You don't. (And don't listen to the politicians here who say vile things like the reason you can't buy a property is because you don't have a good enough job and all you need to do is "get a better job". Right, that's the problem...) Buying a property is a long-term commitment and if you do buy, you need to anticipate that you might have to hang on to it for a long time to get any decent return from it. The people who keep saying that the prices are just going to keep going up and up and up are fooling themselves. If Australia falls into a recession, if interest rates go up, if investors stop entering the market - well, I'm sure you can figure out where things might head when it comes to property values. Look at what happened in the US. Yes, a lot of that had to do with banks providing dodgy loans, but when interest rates increased, so too did foreclosures and house prices dropped like a rock. Their property values were being propped up by the massive demand for housing by people who were getting easy loans. Of course, the situation in Australia is different but a lot of the demand in the capitals is being driven almost exclusively by investors with lots of $ to spend. That's not going to last forever.

There's nothing wrong with renting. Sure, it might not be as stable as owning - but it's much cheaper. Not just in terms of rent vs mortgage payments, but you need to factor in the cost of maintenance, insurance, strata fees for units, rates, not to mention utilities. If your reason for buying is because you think you'll make a quick buck, think again. If you have $400-500K lying around, you're better off investing in the stock market. The S&P gives a much better return than housing. The reason you invest in housing is because you need a place to live. But you already have that if you're renting.

On the subject of buying an apartment - in Melbourne, I think this is a terrible, terrible idea. I work in the real estate sector and I know that there are thousands of units coming to market in the next 3-5 years. There's already a glut of units as rents are actually dropping for units in buildings built in the past few years. The glut will get even worse. Prices on these are going to drop like crazy.

I'm not saying that the entire property market is going to crash, but you're going to see some corrections in the near future in certain markets. Other markets are going to flatten out and still others will see massive drops in value (I'm thinking these outer suburban areas on the fringe with no amenities and where you have to drive for 10 minutes just to get milk).

The upshot of all this is this - buy a house or an apartment because you like it and you want to live there. Don't buy something because you think you HAVE to.
We will agree to disagree. I actually have an American friend who decided to continue renting. Has now had to move to the country to retire as they cannot afford to continue renting in Sydney.
Most people do not have the financial discipline to save the money that is saved by renting rather than buying, we do not have the long term leases that are available in many other countries for renters and to be honest, driving ten minutes to get milk would not faze the many many Aussies who have grown up in the suburbs.
 

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We will agree to disagree. I actually have an American friend who decided to continue renting. Has now had to move to the country to retire as they cannot afford to continue renting in Sydney.
Most people do not have the financial discipline to save the money that is saved by renting rather than buying, we do not have the long term leases that are available in many other countries for renters and to be honest, driving ten minutes to get milk would not faze the many many Aussies who have grown up in the suburbs.
The point is that if people have to drive ten minutes just to get milk, then they would probably have to drive quite a bit farther just to get to work. I know many Aussies who have to drive 2 hours a day one way just to get to their jobs. Ask them if that fazes them. I'm sure you can figure out what their answer would be. That might work for you - although from what I gather from your posts, you're retired so maybe that doesn't affect you. For the rest of us that have to get to jobs in the CBD or inner city every day and don't want to spend a massive chunk of our waking lives stuck in traffic, that's just not an option. Perhaps there is a generational divide on this subject.

I'm glad that you are a proud homeowner. I am too. But what I'm saying is that it's not for everyone. And in the current market, I would not encourage anyone to jump into homeownership unless they're open to the possibility of potentially losing money. A lot of it.

Feel free to disagree as much as you like.
 

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I am retired but my husband was driving at least an hour to work until a few months ago. I don't actually think it is a generational divide as much as a personality divide. Strangely to me, my husband finds driving in traffic relaxing! He listens to his radio and he drives all over Sydney to play golf. On the other hand my brother loathes commuting and has always found a job where he travels no more than half hour each way, preferably by train. I was a teacher so I was able to work fairly close to home. But my daughter commutes from Gymea to Parramatta by train; an hour and a half, and she quite enjoys it. Her husband changed jobs and probably took a pay cut to get a local job.
Look, I listened to my daughters stress that they would never get a house etc all through their twenties. When their friends all started getting property they found a way. My generation tended to buy earlier as we did not travel, change careers and partners quite as much. We were at uni but had friends who had left school at 15. They had houses, cars and were married when we were still studying. That encouraged us to make an effort to buy something.But everyone started with either an apartment or a cheap house way out in the sticks and expected to upgrade later.
Our friend's kids are building a house in Brisbane at the age of 22. They relocated from Sydney, found local jobs, he did a degree full-time and worked full-time concurrently as this is what they want.
But each to their own.
 

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The point is that if people have to drive ten minutes just to get milk, then they would probably have to drive quite a bit farther just to get to work. I know many Aussies who have to drive 2 hours a day one way just to get to their jobs. Ask them if that fazes them. I'm sure you can figure out what their answer would be. That might work for you - although from what I gather from your posts, you're retired so maybe that doesn't affect you. For the rest of us that have to get to jobs in the CBD or inner city every day and don't want to spend a massive chunk of our waking lives stuck in traffic, that's just not an option. Perhaps there is a generational divide on this subject.

I'm glad that you are a proud homeowner. I am too. But what I'm saying is that it's not for everyone. And in the current market, I would not encourage anyone to jump into homeownership unless they're open to the possibility of potentially losing money. A lot of it.

Feel free to disagree as much as you like.
Hi Ozbound,

The thing is we keep hearing there is a price correction to come.... but we never actually see one happening! :p

Unless there is a major crash like the GFC... prices are either staying flat for some suburbs or are rising sharply... :rolleyes:

Nevertheless, I do value your comments as it seems, belonging to real estate industry, you might surely have "insider" information that we (others) lack. :)

Specific query: Please share your advice on Tarneit suburb for buying a first house in a budget of $400-450k?

Are you suggesting this year is not a good time to buy?

Thanks in advance...

Regards
Ausmover
 

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I am retired but my husband was driving at least an hour to work until a few months ago. I don't actually think it is a generational divide as much as a personality divide. Strangely to me, my husband finds driving in traffic relaxing! He listens to his radio and he drives all over Sydney to play golf. On the other hand my brother loathes commuting and has always found a job where he travels no more than half hour each way, preferably by train. I was a teacher so I was able to work fairly close to home. But my daughter commutes from Gymea to Parramatta by train; an hour and a half, and she quite enjoys it. Her husband changed jobs and probably took a pay cut to get a local job.
Look, I listened to my daughters stress that they would never get a house etc all through their twenties. When their friends all started getting property they found a way. My generation tended to buy earlier as we did not travel, change careers and partners quite as much. We were at uni but had friends who had left school at 15. They had houses, cars and were married when we were still studying. That encouraged us to make an effort to buy something.But everyone started with either an apartment or a cheap house way out in the sticks and expected to upgrade later.
Our friend's kids are building a house in Brisbane at the age of 22. They relocated from Sydney, found local jobs, he did a degree full-time and worked full-time concurrently as this is what they want.
But each to their own.
Yes, to each their own indeed. But my guess is that your anecdotal evidence of people in your family enjoying hours of commuting per week is not indicative of Australians as a whole. Especially when you consider a lot of first-time home buyers are purchasing apartments in inner city areas specifically because location is important to them.

I find it interesting how members of 'your generation' (as you put it, not my words) often criticise people of younger generations for not jumping into the property market as quickly as they did. If you look at how incomes have risen (or rather, not risen) compared to housing prices, you'll see why. Housing prices are so out of whack compared to how much people are actually earning. And this is being driven almost exclusively by investor activity in the market. If you look at other developed countries (except perhaps Canada, which is also on track for a correction of its own), you'll see that Australia tops the list when it comes to housing price as a ratio of incomes. Ultimately it's that income that is going to drive the values since, amazingly, you need an income to be able to buy a house.

There are people of 'my generation' who have good jobs, save money, don't travel and still can't get a foot on the property ladder, or the choice is to buy a small apartment that won't appreciate in value (and may in fact depreciate, when you look at the glut of units that we're currently facing) or a house 50 kms from the city centre and spend hours a week commuting. (And are not like your relatives and don't enjoy being stuck in traffic or crammed into a train.) At the end of the day, a house is as much an investment as a place to live. If you're losing out on the investment aspect, then what benefit is there to buying.

To the poster who mentioned Tarneit - that wouldn't be the worst place to buy a house especially since they just opened a train link in that area that would make commutes into the CBD easier. But if you are really looking to buy a house, you should talk to a buyer's agent who has specific knowledge of the housing market in that area.

I'm not a fortune teller - I can't tell you when or even if there will be a correction in property values. But to be getting in now at the height of the market seems pretty dangerous when you consider Australia's economy, which is largely being propped up by resources, is slowing, investors are already becoming cautious about jumping into the market (since their rental yields are getting lower and lower), interest rates are sure to increase at some point (which will put an even greater number of households in mortgage stress), the job market is softening, salaries are not even increasing at the rate of inflation... If you don't believe, just look at the data and judge for yourself. If at the end of the day you still want to buy the house, then great. Go for it. Just be prepared for the fact that things might go sour and you will be stuck with a house that you may have paid too much for. Just look at what happened in the US. (Or what has already happened in mining towns like Port Hedland in WA or Rockhampton in QLD.)
 

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As a commuter (4 hours a day) for the past 10 years I have had to put up with the same work colleagues complain for 10plus years that they can't get a foot hold into the market. Unless they win lotto or get an inheritance the bottom line is that nothing is going to change. You will need to make a choice - either you buy a place in the area you are interested in regardless of what it is at your budget (you can get studios in chippendale for 300k....the same complex has had three for sale at different times this year between 290-340) or you go however far out from the city to get the type of home you like at that budget. You make the choice...what is more important...the type of house or the type of social life. Stop complaining...choice and consequence.

I wanted an acre but worked in Sydney on an education salary....now that is paid off and I have a studio in the city that I live in during the week. My colleagues are still renting and still complaining. No one is going to purchase a place for you...if you want a property you have to make choices and sacrifices.
 

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As a commuter (4 hours a day) for the past 10 years I have had to put up with the same work colleagues complain for 10plus years that they can't get a foot hold into the market. Unless they win lotto or get an inheritance the bottom line is that nothing is going to change. You will need to make a choice - either you buy a place in the area you are interested in regardless of what it is at your budget (you can get studios in chippendale for 300k....the same complex has had three for sale at different times this year between 290-340) or you go however far out from the city to get the type of home you like at that budget. You make the choice...what is more important...the type of house or the type of social life. Stop complaining...choice and consequence. I wanted an acre but worked in Sydney on an education salary....now that is paid off and I have a studio in the city that I live in during the week. My colleagues are still renting and still complaining. No one is going to purchase a place for you...if you want a property you have to make choices and sacrifices.
No one is complaining?
 

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Many of my generation were certainly pushed into home ownership; in my Italian family we were simply not allowed to get married with parental blessing until a home was purchased. Until then it was wait and save. We had known that our parents separated for literally years when the men migrated, supported themselves and the family back in Italy and saved to buy a house and bring out their family. Six years in my parents case. So we were brought up with an incredible importance placed on home ownership. Times have changed but many people here pass on that attitude to their kids. If their kids lose their jobs they will help with the mortgage and help them in other ways. One reason our mortgage default rate is very low and why I believe there is unlikely to be a major slump.
Many people at least here in Sydney may not enjoy a long commute but they get used to it. Just like many other things in life like the in-laws, living with teenagers and elderly pets!
But I do believe it can be very effective to buy a property as an investment and then rent somewhere you prefer to live. This is really effective if you are self employed as you can negatively gear the investment property and then claim many expenses on the rented property against your tax.
 

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@Marissaanna

Now I understand why your husband like to drive in Sydney because Italians are the same bad and crazy driver like the people driving here in Australia! Every time, when I drove through Italy I got almost a heart attack! I never believed that there are another western country with such such so ignorant, impatient and crazy driver but yeah Australians driver are the same....
 

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Depende, ha ha, we agree about Aussie drivers being impatient and often ignorant. But in Italy they are more skilled albeit impatient and crazy. I end up with bruises on my arms in Italy as I have my arms folded so tight and once I dug my nails into my arm until it bled. But I should not say this on an expat forum, but we also have a lot of our migrants who have not had a licence for long and they can be a disaster in carparks!
 

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Many of my generation were certainly pushed into home ownership; in my Italian family we were simply not allowed to get married with parental blessing until a home was purchased. Until then it was wait and save. We had known that our parents separated for literally years when the men migrated, supported themselves and the family back in Italy and saved to buy a house and bring out their family. Six years in my parents case. So we were brought up with an incredible importance placed on home ownership. Times have changed but many people here pass on that attitude to their kids. If their kids lose their jobs they will help with the mortgage and help them in other ways. One reason our mortgage default rate is very low and why I believe there is unlikely to be a major slump. Many people at least here in Sydney may not enjoy a long commute but they get used to it. Just like many other things in life like the in-laws, living with teenagers and elderly pets! But I do believe it can be very effective to buy a property as an investment and then rent somewhere you prefer to live. This is really effective if you are self employed as you can negatively gear the investment property and then claim many expenses on the rented property against your tax.

You don't need to be self employed to negatively gear a property. There have been discussions surrounding eliminating negative gearing for new properties to improve affordability and allow more first time buyers to enter the market.

As for the other poster talking about people complaining, not sure what you're on about but I think you need to calm down a bit. The reality is that not everyone is like you and what works for you does not work for everyone. If your colleagues are annoying you, bring it up with them.
 

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Sorry I did not mean to imply that you need to be self employed to negatively gear investments. Who knows its future? Last time they tampered with it the pool of rental property was about to diminish, which is apt to push up rents.
I think the poster who was on about people whinging is probably in the situation where a lot of people have near identical incomes (as in teachers) yet have made very different decisions about money. My friend who always rented has never complained about her situation but I know she finds it painful that her former colleagues are spending their retirements travelling oveseas etc and they had no choice but to move up the coast. She is actually encouraging her own kids to buy but is not in a position to help them.
 

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Sorry I did not mean to imply that you need to be self employed to negatively gear investments. Who knows its future? Last time they tampered with it the pool of rental property was about to diminish, which is apt to push up rents. I think the poster who was on about people whinging is probably in the situation where a lot of people have near identical incomes (as in teachers) yet have made very different decisions about money. My friend who always rented has never complained about her situation but I know she finds it painful that her former colleagues are spending their retirements travelling oveseas etc and they had no choice but to move up the coast. She is actually encouraging her own kids to buy but is not in a position to help them.

I think the other poster doth protest too much. Why should anyone care about how their colleagues spend money? That's just ridiculous.

I'm not convinced that eliminating negative gearing would drive up rents. This is rhetoric from the current government and is not supported by the data.
http://mobile.abc.net.au/news/2015-05-06/hockey-negative-gearing/6431100
 

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Property in Australia, and in Sydney and many parts of Melbourne in particular, are massively overvalued. If you go to auctions (as I do), you'll see that a lot of the people buying houses right now in these two cities are investors, both domestic and foreign. Their deep pockets coupled with historically low interest rates are driving up the price of houses and driving developers to bring really crappy products in the form of shoebox-sized apartments and units in high-demand inner city areas glossed up with fancy names and marketing materials.

Don't buy a house because you think you have to to live here. You don't. (And don't listen to the politicians here who say vile things like the reason you can't buy a property is because you don't have a good enough job and all you need to do is "get a better job". Right, that's the problem...) Buying a property is a long-term commitment and if you do buy, you need to anticipate that you might have to hang on to it for a long time to get any decent return from it. The people who keep saying that the prices are just going to keep going up and up and up are fooling themselves. If Australia falls into a recession, if interest rates go up, if investors stop entering the market - well, I'm sure you can figure out where things might head when it comes to property values. Look at what happened in the US. Yes, a lot of that had to do with banks providing dodgy loans, but when interest rates increased, so too did foreclosures and house prices dropped like a rock. Their property values were being propped up by the massive demand for housing by people who were getting easy loans. Of course, the situation in Australia is different but a lot of the demand in the capitals is being driven almost exclusively by investors with lots of $ to spend. That's not going to last forever.

There's nothing wrong with renting. Sure, it might not be as stable as owning - but it's much cheaper. Not just in terms of rent vs mortgage payments, but you need to factor in the cost of maintenance, insurance, strata fees for units, rates, not to mention utilities. If your reason for buying is because you think you'll make a quick buck, think again. If you have $400-500K lying around, you're better off investing in the stock market. The S&P gives a much better return than housing. The reason you invest in housing is because you need a place to live. But you already have that if you're renting.

On the subject of buying an apartment - in Melbourne, I think this is a terrible, terrible idea. I work in the real estate sector and I know that there are thousands of units coming to market in the next 3-5 years. There's already a glut of units as rents are actually dropping for units in buildings built in the past few years. The glut will get even worse. Prices on these are going to drop like crazy.

I'm not saying that the entire property market is going to crash, but you're going to see some corrections in the near future in certain markets. Other markets are going to flatten out and still others will see massive drops in value (I'm thinking these outer suburban areas on the fringe with no amenities and where you have to drive for 10 minutes just to get milk).

The upshot of all this is this - buy a house or an apartment because you like it and you want to live there. Don't buy something because you think you HAVE to.
Well since you are from real estate and have done plenty of research. This post would not be my argument with you but entirely based on my personal opinion.

Ground realities are different at least when it comes to Perth where me and my wife have invested. Actually its her investment and i was just a guy who had some savings and luckily got married before denting those :) . Got a clever wife who made me to use that to purchase a strata house and it was way back 2010.

But i agree it was possible with my in laws who sponsored decent amount to support us since they were having there own house since 70 when they migrated and knew about the place to invest, both of us wouldn't have ventured into the market without there advice. Investment would not be right term here as we bought it to start our new life.

But i could see the investment swell from 700k then to close to a million now and believe me the old prosperous mining jobs are historied from Perth and for that matter from rest of OZ where a mining wage would have paid way to mortgages being paid in matter of years.

There are not many chinese here in the forum else you would have a different opinion from them go to any strata auctioning you will find plenty of those investing millions in purchasing the properties even now.

So may be things are not as they seem to be, but yeah I guess Americans have had a proper lesson from the great fall and can be ears to those who are investing hard earned money for getting a luxurious house just for the investment.
 

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Depende, ha ha, we agree about Aussie drivers being impatient and often ignorant. But in Italy they are more skilled albeit impatient and crazy. I end up with bruises on my arms in Italy as I have my arms folded so tight and once I dug my nails into my arm until it bled. But I should not say this on an expat forum, but we also have a lot of our migrants who have not had a licence for long and they can be a disaster in carparks!
LoL and I was under the impression that Italians are calm and peaceful drivers but guess what i was driving from Bundesautobahn with my heart in my throat during a holiday and was in peace only when i crossed Deutschland into swiss and loved the movement in como.

But guess what you are missing all the fun + @Depende come to India mate you would start believing in god once you leave back and are in OZ roads safely by the grace of almighty
Amen:) ( sorry was not taking the lord name in vain )
 
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