[SueWilson49]

Hi everybody, I'm new so plse excuse mistakes. Some 20+ years ago my then husband and I bought a property in joint ownership, to use as a holiday home and as a retirement home. We subsequently divorced and he decided to live in the house. He then sold his half of the property to his current 'girlfriend' for a nominal amount and then both she and he died. I am led to believe she left her share of the house to either her children or her son. However I have no knowledge of the purported sale and no deeds myself. How and where might I find the documents I need?

 

[canoeman]

As you have no Deeds, think your first job must be to verify your status in ownership issue.
You really need a copy of the original purchase Escritura to start from, so you need a Solicitor who has a Digital signature to access Conservatoria, Financas and Notarial records.

If you where registered as a part owner then it's unlikely the sale could have happened as you or someone with your P.O.A should have been present, at sale to girlfriend and subsequent transfer of ownership after death.

Under Portuguese Law all parties named as owners or part owners in Escritura or someone with P.O.A must be present for sale or transfer.

 

[SueWilson49]

Thanks for your speedy reply. Do you, or anybody else out there, happen to know if this law is new? All the events took place about 8-10 years ago! Thanks again

 

[canoeman]

Always been the case as far as I know.

This is only a requirement when selling or effecting a transfer of ownership, not when buying a property.

 

[MrBife]

You don't need to have the original deeds, the ownership info on them is recorded anyway in the conservatorio. Your lawyer needs to verify who is the registered owner. If it is still you and your ex then you will need to get a notarised copy of his death certificate. With that you may well be able to transfer the property into your name. (Some taxes and fees to be paid by you). You will need to present your NIF (noted on the original purchase) and proof of your ID.

This info will be published in the Portuguese press and anyone with an interest given a notice period to raise any objections. If no one sees the info or responds then the property should transfer to you.

He may well have done an informal sale but unless it was recorded officially (and Property Transfer Tax paid at that time) then it is not a legal transaction. You or your representative (with your power of attorney) would also have had to be present at the notary to do that properly.

 

[canoeman]

I totally agree with MrBife, the reason I say you should get a copy of original Escritura is to establish how and who the property was bought by and that your existance as married partner or part ownership is or was declared at time, do you or did you then have a NIF number? (a Portuguese Tax Number)

 

[SueWilson49]

I totally agree with MrBife, the reason I say you should get a copy of original Escritura is to establish how and who the property was bought by and that your existance as married partner or part ownership is or was declared at time, do you or did you then have a NIF number? (a Portuguese Tax Number)

Thank you everyone. I know my married name was on the original purchase as I had to go to the town hall? and sign in the presence of a legal beagle!

 

[canoeman]

Thank you everyone. I know my married name was on the original purchase as I had to go to the town hall? and sign in the presence of a legal beagle!

Presume you must mean the Notary as 10 years ago that was the only option, if you don't have any paperwork, you really need to contact a Solicitor and firstly get copies of Escritura, Registration at Financas, and Conservatoria for the original purchase and also copies of new Registrations (if your ex-husbands share was sold legally) and current copies of Financas, and Conservatoria Registrations since his and her death.

Initially you don't need a Solicitor to act for you but you do need one to access records and obtain copies.
There are a new group of Solicitors that can offer this sort of service cheaply, my advice would be to get copies of all relevant paperwork so you know the exact ownership situation that is Registered, you then will know what you need or how to proceed to do establish your claim. Also a copy of your ex-husbands Will if there is one.

 

[MrBife]

Also a copy of your ex-husbands Will if there is one.

Your own morals will be your guide as to how hard you search for one of those ! Let's face it, if one isn't presented by you or as a result of the public advertising then you stand to get all the property.

 

[canoeman]

Provided Suewilson49 can actually prove she might own or be entitled to a half share of property, which as she hasn't been contacted at, at least 3 possible points could be a big question mark.

 

[SueWilson49]

Thanks again for all your comments. Someone mentioned a 'group of lawyers,' would anyone know how I can contact them?

 

[canoeman]

It's a relatively new association of Solicitors that offer services at set fees, generally a lot cheaper than Notary and Conservarotia for example registering cars, copies of documents, house purchase etc Balcão Único do Solicitador, do a search for an area although for what you want i.e. copies of documents it's not important.

 

[SueWilson49]

Thanks again everybody, I'll see if they can help me.

 

[Bettycsandoval]

Property Azores

Hi I'm new too. I live in California. My grandparents have several properties on the island of Santa Maria. They are deceased for many years. They had 4 children, my mom is the only surviving child. I understand everything needs to be split 4 ways. We all agree to sell and it seems so complicated. We just hired an attorney, I assume that’s the first step. My question is can I send a letter to the Conservatoria to get copies of the Escritura?
Is that like the deed?

Does anyone know anything about the government reimbursing you 75% if you build a rental unit?

Should I also hire a Real Estate Agent to sell the properties?

What about clearing the land, the large ruin is on a huge piece of land, which looks like a forest. Should I clear the land, is it worth it?

Whats the story on property taxes?

They have about 12 pastures and several Vineyards in the Maia.
Any ideas or advise I will highly appreciate.

Thank you, I learned alot from someone else's previous posts.

 

[Strontium]

A few basics, did they have any illegitimate offspring?, as each offspring dies the article(s) is further split between their offspring's offspring both legitimate and illegitimate.

Do you have any paperwork? Have you been there? If you know the article numbers a lawyer (if registered to do so) can access the"land registry" data base and print/send you the registered details of the articles, may be cost a euro a page plus an hours payment. Who has been paying the local town hall taxes? who does the town hall send them to? Were there any loans taken out against the article as these go with the article to the next owner to repay - sometimes people do this to pay for funeral fees etc. Land in Portugal is taxed by class and size consequently was often underdelcared.

You do not hire a real estate agent as they work on commission so if they sell they get paid usually a
percentage.

On mainland it is the owners responsibility to clear undergrowth look at the recent fires to see why.

I'd guess there are 500,000 ruins in Portugal a land of 10 000 000 people so to sell yours as is you have vast competition UNLESS the pasture and vinyards has been in use they will also be wildness. You'll have to fine and pay people to clear land.


Mainland but there seems to be 69,000 bit of land for sale on this one website
https://www.olx.pt/imoveis/terrenos...ption]=1&search[order]=filter_float_price:asc

 

[Bettycsandoval]

Thank you. The taxes I have no clue. The previous attorney found 12 pastures and 2 ruins. My cousin has the names of all the properties. I think will be hard to sell too, but we need to get the vesting (Owners) of the properties in order. Sounds like a pain.

I also heard the pastures can only be in one name, is that true?
Have you heard about the government contributing 75% toward a rental?
What is the name of the civil department I could send a notarized letter from my mom and ask for those papers with ownership you are talking about?

Can you recommend who I can call to get a price on clearing the land? You make a good point on the fires. The land is super huge.

Thank you so much

 

[Strontium]

Hi,

Being Portugal it may be the arrangements for property ownership differ from the mainland, Assuming they are similar then each pasture or ruin will have a property title called an article and identified by a number. Some (ie ruin +garden) may have more them one number. Land has different classifications which restrict what it can be used for - example Rustic land cannot have habitation on (there are exceptions). It may be pasture can only have one owner but this conflicts with the inheritance law but there was something about if it was sold had to be offered to the landowner next to it. If you can find the article numbers it should be quite straight forward to get copies of the official "land registry" records. I do not know if Santa Maria is it own Authority or part of the Azores Authority but the records should all be on the "land registry" data base, these also shjould indicate the Authority. I could ask a lawyer who has previously got me records from Article numbers if the Santa Maria records are on the data base. This does not need a notarised latter as it's all "public" information
For most other things, finding if monies are owned, if any fines are to be paid etc. It would be advisable to get someone who is physically in the town which has jurisdiction over Santa Maria as things here can applied in a variable manner so visiting offices - which often entails discussions with several people- and getting paperwork will be necessary. I have not heard the government paying 75% toward a rental unit and think that unlikely or Portugal would be awash with them.

 

[Bettycsandoval]

Thank you so much for all your advise, I will get started.