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Discussion Starter #1
Jojo, mrypg9.....

Why argue with people. Let individuals have their say. All differing opinions are there for the OPs to read and they can then make up their minds.

Many people post cautionary advice very eloquently, so leave it there and we could end the constant to-and-fros between the regular contributors whose positions on the good and bad are by now well known to all.

Just a suggestion.
 

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Discussion Starter #2
We may sometimes appear negative, but its wrong, irresponsible and very unkind to give people false hopes and dreams on the forum


Jo xxx

And Jojo, I may be unwise in getting into this, given your Super Mod status, but you really should try to refrain from calling people irresponsible just because you disagree with their point of view.

You told me I was irresponsible recently.

It's rude and unnecessary.
 

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And Jojo, I may be unwise in getting into this, given your Super Mod status, but you really should try to refrain from calling people irresponsible just because you disagree with their point of view.

You told me I was irresponsible recently.

It's rude and unnecessary.
I'm sorry if you misunderstood what I said, but I was simply commenting that we on the forum sometimes appear negative, but its wrong, irresponsible and very unkind to give people false hopes and dreams. It wasnt directed at any one individual

Jo xxx
 

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Discussion Starter #4
I'm sorry if you misunderstood what I said, but I was simply commenting that we on the forum sometimes appear negative, but its wrong, irresponsible and very unkind to give people false hopes and dreams. It wasnt directed at any one individual

Jo xxx
Yes, the passive voice is handy at times.
 

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Excellent choice

You will get on ok here plumbing in Spain is quite simple , I have done loads over the years here ! :)

Good luck , its worth a try !

Cheers Tony:)
I think your upbeat positive attitude is great, but I do agree with Jojo that it may lead to posters getting the wrong idea ie that that it's easy to get work here.
I thought you were unemployed yourself for a while?
 

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Jojo, mrypg9.....

Why argue with people. Let individuals have their say. All differing opinions are there for the OPs to read and they can then make up their minds.

Many people post cautionary advice very eloquently, so leave it there and we could end the constant to-and-fros between the regular contributors whose positions on the good and bad are by now well known to all.

Just a suggestion.
No-one is preventing individuals from 'having their say', though, are they...:)
I think we are all free to voice our opinion on posts that give 'advice' which, if you read tonymar's contributions, is based on his 'opinion' and bears little relation to the actually existing situation.
Some posts give the impression that moving to Spain to start a new life is a matter of scant importance, something trivial, inconsequential...'give it a try;', we are told or 'you only have one life'. Anyone might be forgiven for thinking that looking for and finding work in Spain was on a par with trying a new restaurant or a weekend trip somewhere.
I've only been living in Spain for seven years but through political and charity work and getting to know lots of people I think I have a reasonably good idea of the work situation in Malaga Province. Through listening to people living and working in other parts of Spain I get a second-hand view of how things are elsewhere. I know lots of people who have good jobs and know people who have found work recently. But I also know that these people - all Spanish, by the way - are the exception and not the rule and that they got these jobs because of who they know.
No recently arrived immigrant has those advantages and that is a fact.
It's fair to say, from your posts, that you are among the optimists but as I understand it you do not yet live full-time in Spain. That doesn't stop you from having a valid opinion but it will not be as valid as the opinions of people who live and work here.
My advice, if you look, is nearly always to suggest that would-be job seekers come to see for themselves. That is what Jo does, invariably. Your own research will be better than anyone's opinion, yours, mine, Jo's, Tony's, even PW's.

Incidentally, both you and Tony forget that the OP will be unable to bring his UK RHD van with him which somewhat puts the dampers on his plans:)
 

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Discussion Starter #8 (Edited)
It's fair to say, from your posts, that you are among the optimists but as I understand it you do not yet live full-time in Spain. That doesn't stop you from having a valid opinion but it will not be as valid as the opinions of people who live and work here.

Incidentally, both you and Tony forget that the OP will be unable to bring his UK RHD van with him which somewhat puts the dampers on his plans:)
I don't class myself as an optimist. I think I'm a realist. I think low-skilled workers ready to try their hand will in some cases fail to find work and in some cases succeed. But I think they'll work long hours for crap pay in conditions I wouldn't be prepared to tolerate. At the same time, I think professional people who have in-demand skills can find work in Spain that will give them the lifestyle they are looking for. But hey, perception is reality so if you think I'm an optimist who am I to argue.

And, every now and then you ask me for credentials, such as have I run a business, do I know any Spaniards who are suffering, etc? I never answer because I don't want to. So, what you do, in the absence of information, is jump to conclusions. The latest of which seems to be that because I don't live and/or work full-time in Spain, my opinion is not as valid as a that of a person who does.

This morning I had one of my regular Skype calls with one of 7 people, at the moment, whom I talk with at least once a week, and usually much more often. These are Spaniards between the ages of 25 and 57 who live in A'Coruna, Madrid, Toldeo, Zarragoza, Barcelona and Alcoy. When I am next in Spain I am meeting the guys from Madrid and Acloy, as I have done on many occasions before. One is bringing his family and will be staying for the weekend. The calls are for the purpose of learning Spanish (me) and them learning English. We hooked-up on a language contact site. We speak for hours and hours about all sorts of subjects including work and current affairs. We share a common interest and goal, which is to be able to speak the other language as well as we speak our own. It's rewarding, and fun, and over time I have come to learn quite a lot about their circumstances and their Spanish lives.

But hey, if living part-time in Spain and having that amount of contact with Spaniards means I am less qualified than a Brit in a Brit enclave, speaking English all the time to his/her English friends then OK, maybe I should leave it to those who live there full-time.

Oh, and I didn't "forget" about the van. I didn't know about the rules on vans so wouldn't offer advice. You really should stop assuming that the silly people forget so many things while you remember them all.
 

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Discussion Starter #9
And the direction this thread has now taken is exactly why I said:

"Why argue with people. Let individuals have their say. All differing opinions are there for the OPs to read and they can then make up their minds."
 

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Discussion Starter #10
Nice try Jojo, but you got the title wrong.

This is about: "Why argue with people. Let individuals have their say"

Take Tony's post. He's a man of few lines, most of the time, up against others who regularly put an essay down.

So why not let it stand alongside all the other advice rather than address it, at length.

I think this board will function better if that is the approach taken because when the validity of posts is challenged these huge discussions break out and things quickly slide off-topic.

But you're the Super Mod Jo. So you decide. I'm only putting my point of view forward.
 

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I've separated this from the other thread as its getting silly.

Firstly, people come on here wanting advice, they dont want patonising, they are asking for and want to know our thoughts.

Secondly, of course we all have a right to our opinions, but those opinions need to be based on facts, not pipe dreams. Otherwise you could be allowing someone to ruin their lives. Lets face it, most people sift thru responses and look for the positives, they look for what they want to hear.

Thirdly, whatever our opinions are, we must look at and use the facts - there is mass unemployment, British working age people will not get healthcare unless they pay into the system, there are no welfare benefits or social housing and Spain, which once was an easy option, is no longer that.

So, to conclude. Its all very well having the opinion that posters should come over,, do it, its easy - but is it?? can you honestly feel that you and the forum have helped them to formulate a sensible plan????? Thats what I mean when I say that being optimistic in the current climate is irresponsible. People come on here for advice - real advice, life changing advice and if we're incorrectly optimistic, then we've done no one any favours. This forum is known for its honesty and reality, rather that fueling dreams, so lets try and get a good balance - thats all I'm saying

Jo xxx
 

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lives.

But hey, if living part-time in Spain and having that amount of contact with Spaniards means I am less qualified than a Brit in a Brit enclave, speaking English all the time to his/her English friends then OK, maybe I should leave it to those who live there full-time.

Oh, and I didn't "forget" about the van. I didn't know about the rules on vans so wouldn't offer advice. You really should stop assuming that the silly people forget so omany things while you remember them all.
Two points: I don't live in a 'Brit enclave and speak English all the time etc etc.'.
That is precisely my point. And yes, people who live full-time in a country generally have a batter grasp of how things are than those who don't.
Secondly: the question of the van was perhaps the most important of the OPs plans.
If you'd read all the posts you would have seen that someone had already pointed that out.

I don't think that optimism or pessimism should be factors in assessing the likelihood of someone finding work in Spain. Realism is indeed much more important and that means looking at things as they are and not as you'd like them to be.
My opinion, for what it's worth, is that in my little part of Spain few Spaniards have got much chance of finding secure jobs for the foreseeable future, let alone non-Spanish-speaking immigrant Brits with no local knowledge or connections and with skills already existing in abundance amongst the unemployed.

I know a fair amount about very few not very useful things, like politics, a little economics and European history of the last two centuries. I know a little about running a successful business through my other half and about being a landlord because I was one. So I think I'm reasonably qualified to pass comment on those subjects even if my opinions aren't always shared.
But I know absolutely nothing about anything else and refrain from commenting on matters of which I know nothing, which are very many. Art, music, cinema, cookery, architecture, geography and many other topics are places I don't go and as for science or technology....
I do think that experience and knowledge of something give an advantage over those who don't have those attributes. So when I know I know nothing, I take the advice of Mark Twain: 'It is better to remain silent and be thought an idiot than to open one's mouth and put the matter beyond doubt'.:)
 

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Discussion Starter #15
I know you don't live in a Brit enclave..... i didn't say you did. I was making the point that although I don't live there full time I do have a lot more contact with Spanish people who are living through these times than some Brits who are living there. I didn't realise you were comparing the two of us when you said what you did.

As for the credentials of those who offer comment, I don't ever get into that. It's a public place and all sorts of different people will come here and offer their advice, some of which I will agree with and some of which I won't. What I won't do is judge them on my perception of their capacity to comment.

Jo lives in Worthing I believe. She has clear views about exactly how things are in Spain and offers them at length. I would never suggest she is more or less qualified to do so than me or any others. It's not worth getting into.

Two points: I don't live in a 'Brit enclave and speak English all the time etc etc.'.
That is precisely my point. And yes, people who live full-time in a country generally have a batter grasp of how things are than those who don't.
Secondly: the question of the van was perhaps the most important of the OPs plans.
If you'd read all the posts you would have seen that someone had already pointed that out.

I don't think that optimism or pessimism should be factors in assessing the likelihood of someone finding work in Spain. Realism is indeed much more important and that means looking at things as they are and not as you'd like them to be.
My opinion, for what it's worth, is that in my little part of Spain few Spaniards have got much chance of finding secure jobs for the foreseeable future, let alone non-Spanish-speaking immigrant Brits with no local knowledge or connections and with skills already existing in abundance amongst the unemployed.

I know a fair amount about very few not very useful things, like politics, a little economics and European history of the last two centuries. I know a little about running a successful business through my other half and about being a landlord because I was one. So I think I'm reasonably qualified to pass comment on those subjects even if my opinions aren't always shared.
But I know absolutely nothing about anything else and refrain from commenting on matters of which I know nothing, which are very many. Art, music, cinema, cookery, architecture, geography and many other topics are places I don't go and as for science or technology....
I do think that experience and knowledge of something give an advantage over those who don't have those attributes. So when I know I know nothing, I take the advice of Mark Twain: 'It is better to remain silent and be thought an idiot than to open one's mouth and put the matter beyond doubt'.:)
 

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http://www.expatforum.com/expats/la-tasca/371025-why-do-we-bother-19.html#post3535026
People who post about Spain's unemployment problem, or cuts in public spending, or anything "bad", have often been called negative. A large group of us who live here or have experience of living here disagree with this idea and prefer to look on it as being realistic, not negative and not pessimistic
If you ask for advice you should be prepared to get it. I went through a phase of "warning" new posters that they had asked for advice and therefore they would get it.
It wasn't very well accepted though, no matter how many smilies I posted with it :)
Originally Posted by brocher
What I really don't get is the assumption that you will automatically have a better lifestyle in Spain, just because it's sunny!

Much as I hate the cold weather in the UK, sun will not automatically make everything better (and that's ignoring how cold it may be in the winter!).

If you spend all your spare time in front of the TV in the UK instead of getting out and about, you'll probabably do the same in Spain.

Advice to prospective immigrants.

Sun won't help if you're skint because you can't find a job!

For families who have to juggle cooking, cleaning, work, school, shopping, etc the sun won't help. Much of that routine grind will be exactly the same as it is in the UK, or even a little harder when sweating buckets as you do it all!

You'll sweat so much you'll want to take more showers and change clothes more, causing more washing and ironing. Ironing isn't bad in the UK, watching TV on a cold winter evening after work, but pretty awful in the heat of Spain.

Keeping all those tiled floors takes more time and effort than a quick run round with the hoover. As for continually sweeping up all the sand from the beach....

Finding a plumber, electrician garage or dealing with your insurance, electric, gas, broadband, phone deals will all take longer to deal with because you can't read all the offers and T&C's so easily. Like wise dealing with any bureaucracy.


Less ready meals available after a long day at work and cooking hot meals is horrendous when you are already too hot. Fast food like McD and KFC is much more expensive in Spain.

You are at work all day, so you won't be able to get to the market for fresh fruit and veg, or the butcher for meat. Instead you'll have to make to with the over priced, poor quality stuff from the supermarket (much worse than UK supermarket fruit & veg). Of course, the supermarket trip will also take longer because you can't read the labels.

The second hand car you'll buy costs much more than in the UK.


You'll spend so much extra time doing all the above routine things, and be so tired from doing it all in the heat, that you'll actually have less time, energy and money to get out and enjoy the supposed good lifestyle.
http://www.expatforum.com/expats/sp...24505-hopeing-move-out-but-4.html#post2965017
Hard work may give you a better chance of keeping a job once you've found one, but it is no guarantee of fullfilling one's dreams. IMO the archaic thinking is the belief that hard work will get you where you want and/ or deserve to be. It just doesn't work like that any more in 2014 in Spain. It may help like I said, but that on its own is not enough.
Quote:mrypg9
Frankly, it upsets me when we are accused of negativity for simply telling people some of whom are not residents but holiday visitors what we experience on a daily basis. It is also a tad insulting and patronising to the six million unemployed to tell us that all that is needed is grit and determination and lo and behold: a job will materialise. Do they lack optimism, grit and determination? To insinuate that, however unintentionally, is adding insult to injury and could be construed as arrogant in that you are in possession of 'superior' qualities.

I suppose it's possible that people in the UK are unaware that Spain has an unemployment rate almost four times of that in the UK...or that in some areas more than one in three adults and more than 50% of young people are unemployed...that people are being evicted on a daily basis all over Spain and that there are many cases of suicides through homelessness. I guess some British immigrants who don't have many dealings with the Spanish community are unaware of the misery and hopelessness that exists not far from their 'dream life'.

A couple of weeks ago an unemployed man came with his dog to our perrera asking if we could castrate it as it was lively and neighbours had complained to the police who had told him the dog would be destroyed if he didn't have it castrated. He had been without work for five years and could not afford the 190 euros fee asked for by local vets. When we told him we couldn't do that as our vet couldn't do commercial work he sobbed. His dog is his only companion.
Just 2 of the many threads we've had on similar topics with various quotes pulled from them.

For me it's simple
- if you don't want real advice, then don't ask for it.
-if you don't like the forum then leave it

Realistic comments from people who are touch with the country rather than positive comments with no foundation.
 

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Jo lives in Worthing I believe. She has clear views about exactly how things are in Spain and offers them at length. I would never suggest she is more or less qualified to do so than me or any others. It's not worth getting into.

I do live in worthing, unfortunately lol!!!! I have views about employment - or lack of it in Spain, but thats about it. My views come from when we moved out there, my husband was set to start up a business and due to the recession and mass unemployment, it didnt work out so he commuted The chap he was starting up with already had a successful business in spain - he has since gone under. After 3 years of looking, I finally found work, but as the children got older, it became apparent that we'd have to return to the UK. The people I met while there have all but returned to the UK thru lack of work. Several have come back with no money, nowhere to live, nothing, even marriages broken up and they are trying start again in the UK.

So thats what alot of my information and knowledge comes from - apart from that, I only really offer my opinions on things I'm sure about

Jo xxx
 

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I agree.

But this is about whether it is helpful to shout down the people who hold a different opinion.
When there are so many facts, both anecdotal and governmental about how difficult things are with regards to employment in Spain, its not about opinions, its about facts and conveying those, so that people realise that its not easy. So when someone says it is, the facts say that they are wrong and poster/question asker need to know that. "Knowledge is king"!

Jo xxx
 
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