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Hi Waterdog,

Not sure if you are asking me but,

I meant Citizenship as synonymous with Nationality. In my case it means I am a citizen or national of the USA and of Portugal.

To me The benefits are a return of my rightful heritage, The ability to open a Portuguese bank account or stay in Portugal or the rest of the EU as long as I like with no visa required. Also the right to work in 27 more countries than I was able to a few months ago is pretty dope. I can use my Portuguese passport to travel more safely in countries that hate the US (which is pretty much all of them thanks to G.W. Bush and our kind and generous corporations).

I have also made this easier for my brothers and sisters and their children to do if they choose to pursue it.

As far as responsibilities, nothing has changed for me. If I was in Portugal or the USA I still have to uphold the laws citizen or not. Due to taxation treaties, I would pay taxes in whichever country I was living in full time. If I moved to Portugal, I would still have to file in the US, but only pay in Portugal.

Not sure if this answers your questions...

AC
 

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This opens a whole bag of worms. How do we work out what we really are?

Think I am American domicile/national, resident in the UK (I pay taxes in both countries) but citizenship? Well just not sure? Is it where I am currently living or where I originate from?
 

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Thank you acorey.

Your answer & surfin's follow up fill me with curiosity because it is my impression from previous discussions in these forums that there are many perceptions of these differing conditions, which are based on individual circumstances.

But each term: nationality, domicile status, residency & citizenship, must have a specific definition & carry both privileges & responsibilities, possibly moral, certainly legal.

Hope I have got my thoughts across lucidly.

Possibly this should form a new thread, because unless we know what these terms mean how can we know what status is in our best interests?

What do you think?

After my recent 'What kind of Expat' thread I hesitate to embark on another blood letting session!

Woof
 

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You are welcome Waterdog,

It is each of our responsibility to do the research for the countries of interest.

Before seeking Portuguese nationality I did just that. I didn't want any surprises like an unexpected tax bill, or a request to serve compulsory military service.
In my search I found many contradictory opinions and a surprising array of moral views in the subject of dual nationality here in the US. All I care about is the legal facts of the matter.

The United States does not have any laws against multiple Nationality and you cannot lose ones US nationality by adopting another. Even if you make a sworn statement disavowing other nationality in the process of obtaining your new one. This has been upheld by the supreme court of the United States. The only way to lose ones US nationality is to officially declare it in a sworn statement for that sole purpose.

Portugal has no laws against multiple citizenship either. Similarly, one cannot lose ones Portuguese nationality. Which is why I was able get my citizenship easily. By emigrating to the US, my grandfather never lost his Portuguese nationality. My father is, by default, a Portuguese National as the child of one. In spite of the fact that he's never set foot in Portugal. It was simply a matter of proving his lineage, and registering his status. Which then opened the door for me.

I see that you are from the UK and there may be different interpretations of the terms we use between "American" and "British" English .

citizenship
[sit-uh-zuhn-ship, -suhn-]   Origin

cit·i·zen·ship
   [sit-uh-zuhn-ship, -suhn-]
noun
1.
the state of being vested with the rights, privileges, and duties of a citizen.
2.
the character of an individual viewed as a member of society; behavior in terms of the duties, obligations, and functions of a citizen: an award for good citizenship.

na·tion·al·i·ty/ˌnaSHəˈnalitē/
Noun:

The status of belonging to a particular nation.
Distinctive national or ethnic character: "the change of a name does not discard nationality".

I guess I have been a bit loose with my terms. Strictly speaking, I probably should have only used the term "Nationality". Here in the US we (or perhaps just me) treat then as synonyms but they really aren't.
I should have been more careful with my words.

@surfinusa- I guess that makes you a US National and a citizen whatever city you reside in.

Ultimately it only matters what the law is in a persons particular situation. It's on them to learn what that is.

A new thread is probably overkill. We might be better served by me learning to use the proper terms for things I am trying to write about.

In my defense, The common term here in the US is "Dual Citizen", not "Dual National". So... I am going to blame the system on this one...
 

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Then why ask the question/, it's an individuals choice, if they actually have that choice in the first place.

canoeman Who are you directing you apparent score at – moi? And, as sometimes happens, do not understand your banter? What do you mean?

Domicile status for one, is normally clearly defined & if challenged in the UK normally settled by the courts on a case by case basis, often after the subject is deceased. Hardly that individual's choice.

Residency is another matter – within certain bounds, very much an individual’s choice & not necessarily the same as that individual's domicile status.

I believe nationality is a matter of parentage & possibly place of birth - not much choice there.

Whereas citizenship is the place where you choice to eke see out your days - totally your choice.

All this can have both short & long term implications but I believe we may have been here before?
 

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Acorey Thank you very much for sharing all of your research.

Think this must be the definitive answer, which closes this subject out.

Bottom line, background, circumstances, location & aspiration makes everyone a unique case, who must research his or her own solution.

From my experience in the US, many Americans hanker after their original roots.

Best of luck when you get back to your old country.
 

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I also have dual citizenship, Canadian-Portuguese. I was lucky that though I was born in Canada, my mother registered my birth in Lisbon. My path was much easier, I went to the local consulate with my passport and birth certificate and completed an application. Within 6 months I had an identify card and a Portuguese passport. I will need to go through some additional steps for my daughter who has asked that I help her to get her Portuguese citizenship.

On the subject of rights and taxes, there are a few differences that one needs to be aware of with dual citizenship. As a Portuguese citizen in Portugal, my Portuguese citizenship takes precedence i the eyes of the law. For example, with estate planning in Portugal there are rules for inheritance of the family home that you can not change with a will. If I was a Canadian resident in Portugal they would respect my Canadian will, but as a Portuguese citizen Portuguese law applies.

In terms of taxes, it may be different for the US, but the Canadian-Portuguese tax treaty (as most) is intended to avoid double taxation. When I move to Portugal I will pay taxes in Canada on my Canadian income (15% for non-residents) and will complete a Portuguese tax form in which I will have to declare my 'world income', I then get a credit for taxes I paid in Canada.

A question was asked on this thread about non-Portuguese spouses. My Canadian spouse will need to apply for a visa before we go. Once we are in Portugal we will apply for his residency under the Family reunification act. He will need to have his police check to get the visa (I did not need one).
 

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Portugese Nationality.

I've googled this and found on wiki that if a child is born to a Portuguese parent in a foreign country, he/she is automatically a Portuguese citizen. But no information about children who are now adults and who did not register while under 18. I'm 31, my father is Portuguese, but I lived in Sweden my entire childhood.

Does anyone have information about this, whether or not it's possible for me to obtain citizenship, and how to go about it. And what about my kids?

Thanks.
Dear Swedeinus
My son well over 18 obtained his Portuguese Citizenship when his Mother a Portuguese Citizen applied with him. If you visit/communicate with the Embassy/Counsel in your area they will explain the procedure as they apply to your/your father's situation.

Regards,
 

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"I believe nationality is a matter of parentage & possibly place of birth - not much choice there.

Whereas citizenship is the place where you choice to eke see out your days - totally your choice."

Nationality your correct and a person might well have dual nationality, because of place of birth or parents.

But I believe your confusing Residency with Citizenship, you can choose to be Resident in Portugal providing you fulfill criteria, it doesn't give you the same rights as a Portuguese National or citizen.
Taking up Citizenship is a very different decision and process, and is called in Portuguese AQUISIÇÃO DE NACIONALIDADE PORTUGUESA, acquiring Portuguese Nationality.
 

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Swede, A PT passport is EUR70. The ID card is about $US120.

Acorey, you're a good person to write all of that. Much better than me! I got my citizenship this past summer. It was a solid 3 years of work. Of course, I moved to three different countries in that time so that didn't help. I have to say that the Latvians at the PT embassy in Riga were a godsend! :D
 

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My current experience

Hi everyone,

I just started following this thread because I am here right now trying to sort out my Portuguese nationality. My mother was Portuguese, father British. I have made many journeys to immigration et cetera to have reached my current standstill.

Apparently I have to have my Father's Birth Certificate and my Mother and Father's Marriage Certificate legalised by way of the Portuguese Consulate in Great Britain. Also I need them translated to Portuguese along with my Birth Certificate. Okay, now what I am wondering is why I need to go to the Embassy in London to have this done. Surely it could be done from Lisbon. I simply can't afford to fly to England, present documents, or send precious documents in the post just to have them validated in this way.

Does anyone know if I can get these documents legalised here in Lisbon? It would make sense that the British Embassy could do it here but I have been on some merry wild goose chases up until now, attempting to get myself registered.

Any leads would be greatly appreciated.
 

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SmOrg, there is no reason you need to go to London. I had to have apostilled copies but all it took were phone calls, money and some patience waiting for it to arrive by post.
 

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SmOrg, there is no reason you need to go to London. I had to have apostilled copies but all it took were phone calls, money and some patience waiting for it to arrive by post.
Thanks Sonho,

I emailed the Portuguese Consular General in London, and got quick reply that, yes, I could do it at the embassy here. So have booked myself an appointment.

SmOrg
 

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Learning this Process

Hi
I just found this thread and am grateful it exists....wish I found it a few hours or days ago...got frustrated with the person at the consulate...

So in my case, my grandmother registered her children at the local church...is that right or should I be looking somewhere else. When my mother went to the Azores she saw she had been recorded, even though she was born in the US. So she decided to record her children and told me she had done that.

Now I need to renew my passport and I have been asked to get dual citizenship so I can go with her to stay for extended periods of time if needed. She is not well and wants to return and we feel she should have one of us who is able to stay if needed and that means me as I am single and have no children.

What I am coming to understand is I can renew my US passport and keep it for 12 years...I don't have to surrender it when this dual citizenship comes in.

I did not know that. So I have my grandmothers Portuguese birth certificate and my mothers US birth certificate. I am told that my mother is registered and when she obtained her first passport they automatically gave her a dual citizenship passport. When I asked to get myself a dual passport they said I need my mothers Portuguese birth certificate....she was born in the US....so do I write to the church in the town of my grandmother?

Also my mother said she registered her children when she was there last....like 5 years ago or maybe more. Should I ask if there is a birth record for me?

From earlier posts being registered is an important step and if my mother got her passport automatically as a dual citizen then it is very likely she is officially registered.

My mother is still alive, what should I get from her. She never had to go through this and doesn't know what I need. The consulate says I need her Portuguese birth record. Cant I just use her passport info...does her passport have her place of registry?
 

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Hi
I just found this thread and am grateful it exists....wish I found it a few hours or days ago...got frustrated with the person at the consulate...

So in my case, my grandmother registered her children at the local church...is that right or should I be looking somewhere else. When my mother went to the Azores she saw she had been recorded, even though she was born in the US. So she decided to record her children and told me she had done that.

Now I need to renew my passport and I have been asked to get dual citizenship so I can go with her to stay for extended periods of time if needed. She is not well and wants to return and we feel she should have one of us who is able to stay if needed and that means me as I am single and have no children.

What I am coming to understand is I can renew my US passport and keep it for 12 years...I don't have to surrender it when this dual citizenship comes in.

I did not know that. So I have my grandmothers Portuguese birth certificate and my mothers US birth certificate. I am told that my mother is registered and when she obtained her first passport they automatically gave her a dual citizenship passport. When I asked to get myself a dual passport they said I need my mothers Portuguese birth certificate....she was born in the US....so do I write to the church in the town of my grandmother?

Also my mother said she registered her children when she was there last....like 5 years ago or maybe more. Should I ask if there is a birth record for me?

From earlier posts being registered is an important step and if my mother got her passport automatically as a dual citizen then it is very likely she is officially registered.

My mother is still alive, what should I get from her. She never had to go through this and doesn't know what I need. The consulate says I need her Portuguese birth record. Cant I just use her passport info...does her passport have her place of registry?
Hi Brevity,
If your mother registered your birth, the only thing you should need is a Certidão do registo de nascimento which the consulate can order for you (EUR20). If she hasn't registered your birth officially, you will need her Certidão do registo de nascimento and your birth certificate (apostilled). You cannot use her passport or identity card information unfortunately. I just tried using mine last week for my children's passports and it was a no go. I am still fuming as the PT Consulate in the US told me that the Certidão do registo de nascimento was unnecessary and from now on, the ID card would be all that was necessary. If anyone tells you that, don't believe it and keep the certificate!
Good luck!

ETA: Brevity, I just noticed that you are in FL. I finished the process (for me) at the Consulate in Orlando. Very nice man, but he was the one who misinformed me on the need to keep the Certidão do registo de nascimento. Just a heads up! I am now in the process for my children in Prague.
 

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Hi
I just found this thread and am grateful it exists....wish I found it a few hours or days ago...got frustrated with the person at the consulate...

So in my case, my grandmother registered her children at the local church...is that right or should I be looking somewhere else. When my mother went to the Azores she saw she had been recorded, even though she was born in the US. So she decided to record her children and told me she had done that.

Now I need to renew my passport and I have been asked to get dual citizenship so I can go with her to stay for extended periods of time if needed. She is not well and wants to return and we feel she should have one of us who is able to stay if needed and that means me as I am single and have no children.

What I am coming to understand is I can renew my US passport and keep it for 12 years...I don't have to surrender it when this dual citizenship comes in.

I did not know that. So I have my grandmothers Portuguese birth certificate and my mothers US birth certificate. I am told that my mother is registered and when she obtained her first passport they automatically gave her a dual citizenship passport. When I asked to get myself a dual passport they said I need my mothers Portuguese birth certificate....she was born in the US....so do I write to the church in the town of my grandmother?

Also my mother said she registered her children when she was there last....like 5 years ago or maybe more. Should I ask if there is a birth record for me?

From earlier posts being registered is an important step and if my mother got her passport automatically as a dual citizen then it is very likely she is officially registered.

My mother is still alive, what should I get from her. She never had to go through this and doesn't know what I need. The consulate says I need her Portuguese birth record. Cant I just use her passport info...does her passport have her place of registry?
Brevity,

You are talking about different things here all jumbled together.

If you, or your parents were registered at a church that does not mean there is an official birth certificate for you/them.

Just like in the US. A baptismal record or church document means nothing to the IRS etc... Though it does help establish lineage and is used as evidence to establish identity. Along with sworn affidavits and other corroborating evidence.

The question is; Does anyone (You, Your parents, Your grand parents) Have an official Portuguese Birth Certificate? NOT A CHURCH RECORD.

If the answer is yes, then you just have to work from there. Recording births and deaths using official documents. Like American death certificates and birth certificates. You must make sure the BC is updated with children, marriages, and deaths as the case may be.

If the answer is no, then you must start with the last person born in Portugal and get an official Portuguese Birth Certificate created for them. Using church records and whatever else you can get to establish identity. Then create Portuguese BC's for the next generation and then yourself. (assuming you started with your great grandparents) Children, marriages, and deaths are all recorded on the birth certificates.

Your American passport has nothing to do with any of this.
Your American Birth Certificate is only used to establish identity. ( they will want official copies)

When someone at a foreign consulate asks for a "birth certificate" or "Passport", try to remember where you are. They are talking about documents from their country. Otherwise they would specify "American Passport" or "American BC".
Once they can ID you with their own system they will almost never ask for foreign (to them) documentation.

If your Mother has a Portuguese Passport, then there should be a Portuguese BC for her. But remember that Portugal only recently modernized so maybe not. But it should not be difficult to get one made for her, and then you.

It really sounds to me like your Mother needs to go to the consulate and have everything updated. She can get a BC created for you then. Once you have the Official Portuguese Birth Certificate, it is fairly straight foreword. You get a PORTUGUESE ID next. Then a PORTUGUESE PASSPORT.

Good Luck!
 

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TO ALL,

Portugal considers a Birth Certificate to be a transitory document.

It doesn't just record your birth. They record all of the major things that happen to you on it as an addendum. So you got born, got married, had kids, died. All on one document.

As opposed to, say, here in the U.S. where it only records your birth.

So, If you are trying to get Portuguese citizenship/nationality, All birth certificates of the relevant line between you and your last ancestor actually born in Portugal need to be up to date.

In Most cases you are going back many years before Portugal was modernized.
YES you will be dealing with church records.
YES you will be dealing with immigration documentation.
Yes you will be dealing with official documentation from your current country.
YES you will be dealing with your weird old aunts stories.

NO These are not Portuguese Birth Certificates.

Up to you to go submit the forms and supporting documents to Update/create OFFICIAL PORTUGUESE BIRTH CERTIFICATES for the involved parties.

If your goal is a Portuguese Passport, The right to live/work in Portugal, The right to live/work in Europe. Here are the three steps;

1. Update/receive PORTUGUESE Birth certificate.
2. Receive PORTUGUESE ID
3. (AND THIS IS OPTIONAL) Receive PORTUGUESE Passport.

There are other threads here that I have posted LITERALLY all of the info that you need. So poke around here, get armed with info, and get it done.

It really isn't all that difficult if you truly qualify. Even if the relevant ancestors are no longer with us. If you are second generation, it can be done.

I spent few months and about $1000 to get my father's and my BC's, ID's and Passports.

Good Luck and God Speed!

AC
 

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Conservatoria vs Biblioteca

Well they were all jumbled in my head...so it came out that way.

The biggest thing that I did not know was that I could keep my US passport. It is going to cost me 110 dollars and I didnt want to have to surrender that and waste that money. I wil have to pay 453 to the consulate once I have all the documents I need. I would like to just get the one passport and save 110 if I can.

I am researching and learning and sometimes the words get confusing. Like Birth Certificate and Birth Record. I dont need to start with my grandmother or grandfather because I have theirs. And my mother has her citizenship.

My mother said she recorded her children at the Parrish. Parrish in Lousiana means county and likely means the county building in Portugal as well. When I was told the local Parrish, I thought Church but now I believe she meant the local county office.

In my research, there are two place to write to get Birth Records, the Biblioteca or the Conservatoria. My grandmothers Birth Record says Conservatoria on the Top.
I have both addresses and read that is will require an 18 dollar money order. I will probably start with the Conservatoria. The consulate said all I need is my mothers Portuguese Birth Record. My research indicates Birth Records are kept at the library but I think now that it may be the really old records are kept there. Like before 1940.

My mother was born in 1934 and WWll was in 1936 and they had a pretty extensive draft system so I am fairly certain that the records are detailed and current begining with the 1940s. It seems likely my grandmother did not travel back to Portugal until after the war following my mothers birth for her to be recorded.

I am thinking when you go to get a passport you have to show your birth certificate. when my mother got her passport she must have shown her BC. On everyones BC it shows each parent and the location of their birth, city, state and country. It clearly says St Michael, Portugal on my mothers for each parent.

My thoughts are would that have been all she needed....is it possible she could have gotten her dual citizenship without anything more than her US BC which states her parental lineage. Is it possible she does not have a Portuguese Birth Record....or is it not possible and I can safely assume she has one she just doesnt physically have it in her possession...but it can be ordered from the local Parrish Conservatoria.

I will try to research how to create/update then obtain the Portuguese Birth Record of someone else on their behalf. I dont think my mother will be able to do it since she doesnt seem to understand why it is not so easy for me to just go to the consulate and get my dual citizenship.

The things we do for our mothers....Happy Mother's Day Mom...I do love you.
 
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