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The best advice one can give skilled NZ immigrants today is to wise up about NZ. Imagine working in a third world country or the former "DDR" and you get the picture. And befitting to a country only pretending to be a democratic capitalist economy, NZ is known amongst those who dare to read the fine print, to influence media and falsify statistics to appear like a "Britain in the Tropics". This can only be explained with the quite feeble and bribe/nepotism-riddled economy and the bad living conditions (bad housing, low wages, high crime) that apparently leave the government no choice to lie. If you haven't heard about these facts in the daily press it is due to the intelligent NZ news management. NZ earns as much (about 8 billion $) from Immigrants as from tourism. If you look closely, you can detect a policy to incorporate the immigrant savings within the first 2 years into the NZ economy without paying out any government benefits (not even if you are working and paying taxes). The majority of immigrants who has not "worked themselves poor" after these first two years, leaves, usually empty-handed and without savings. A government statistic states that 98% of immigrants are still there after 2 years. It was publicized on international travel and placed in "quality of life" articles. The truth is that only immigrants already in the country for more than 2 years have participated in it, so the majority of immigrants who had already left the country never showed up in the figures. Other "big claims" are just as unreal when you live here, like "green country", or "educational system that scored high in PISA". This is a place of make-believe. A prop-country.

In relation to work permits there are no rules that you couldn't find overthrown tomorrow. The economy is weak and unstable due to soft laws, bribing, nepotism and a brutal government employee attitude of "squeezing out money for oneself no matter what" commonly only found in this quantity in third world countries with an economically traumatized middle class like Guatemala. Any government official who can afford it has a house in other countries. That alone says a lot. And it is simply not true that the average person works less. If they want to get ahead and not drift through life with minimal money, they work the same hours, but in cold and damp offices, earnings half of what you get for the same work in Europe (if you get 40.000 EUR, expect to get 40.000 NZ$ here, which are 20.000 EUR). Yes, living costs are "the same" compared to the rest of the industrialized world, but you earn half, so what does that mean for your spending power in a country that imports everything from toothbrushes to TVs for regular EUR and US$ prices? Many working adults in Auckland can't even afford their own apartment and you can find many groups of 3-4 40 year olds accountants, sales people, bank employees or other middle class workers, sharing houses just because the rents are so ridiculously high and they are still paying off years for a simple TV. Buying houses can be a shocking experience. The houses are not insulated and without proper heating giving New Zealanders the highest asthma statistics. It's the kind of housing you buy as "garden sheds" in Europe. This alone must be one of the weirdest aspects of this bloated, false palm tree-economy and one of the main reasons my husband and I are leaving the country soon. No realistic relation between house prices and what you get for the money. A normal garden shed type house (a timber frame with wood panels nailed on) costs about as much as a "real" house in Europe made of stone, with heating and insulation, which you pay off with halved wages. Which means, NZlers actually never own their houses, but pay "rent" to the banks all their lives. Pretending to be more than one is, is a big sport here.

Recently a lot of European immigrants have been chased out of the country after they were fired and lost their work visas. It was a little national scandal going through the leading papers, Currently New Zealand is loosing many of the foreign skilled laborers they so feverishly tried bring into the country in the past years. Also 40.000 Kiwis leave for Australia every year (which is a lot with a population of 4 million), because of the bad wages while government agencies stall applications of immigrants. What you have heard about "better have a job before coming to NZ" is a result of of that blind, confused nationalistic activism. The job situation is especially bad for everyone "skilled" like Ad and Media professionals, teachers, consultants or other office or class room professionals. There are many stories of Europeans and US citizens being mobbed and excluded from positions which are continuously advertised as free. This is not Europe or the US, so being forced to work under inhumane conditions or being subjected to mobbing and racist jokes or being excluded based on gender, race or nationality is not something you can bring to court here. It is more likely that the police will come to your house to harass you, because one of his cousins works in the same office with you and heard that you had been complaining about NZ (when all you might have said is that you are freezing at your desk because the room is unheated and that this is something that could not happen in Europe)

Under such conditions, should you still try to get a work visa from Europe or the US before coming here? Why not, but it might not be worth the paper that it is written on, because you can easily spent 6 months to a year here (finance with your own money) without being hired (despite several jobs available you would be a perfect match for) and then you have to return anyway. And you couldn't even enjoy the beach, because you are burning away your savings and subjecing yourself to unjust treatment and a world of abuse where you as a person count little. If you really need to be in this country, come here for three months on a tourist visa in a test run, and see if you could get a job in your line of work and if the money would be enough and if you can stand the "socialist economy" attitudes, store inventory, housing, and the constant degrading comments about foreigners meant to be funny, but that just get on every immigrants nerves never after the 10th time while you degrade to just another NZ cash cow. The over-eagerly nice NZ people that do everything for paying tourists are the same people that will harass and ignore anyone who attempts to settle down here and take away "their" jobs.

In any case NZ itself is always the winner, financially, but at what cost. I shudder when I think about what moral values NZ destroys, just for a short-sighted, greedy gain of undoubtedly heavy immigrant savings. And if you see yourself in old age and think about your contribution to the world, is it really the right thing to do to spend your life supporting a degrading, nature and value destroying little country with low morale? I'm not a social worker or doctor, but the thought of me supporting this country by living here, while I see what it does to people and nature, and values is something that has gotten to me over the past two years. I don't think anyone serious about not only their carbon but also their "moral" footprint wants to have that on their conscience. And also, even if you get used to being the immigrant idiot everyone takes advantage of (especially when you are an intellectual and skilled and like doing a good job), and eventually learn to steal and bribe and cheat your way up the NZ social ladder "Number 8 wire" style (because there is no other way to do it), can you get over the fact that you've been compromised by a society where dishonesty is a high moral value?. How much can you enjoy a nice beach so that you forget that constant bad feeling in your stomach of supporting the wrong cause in a place far away from friends, family and decency? Europe and the US are not great achievements of mankind in many ways, but at least, they're not prop countries, a film set where everything looks like the real thing, but isn't. The only real thing here is the nature, and it comes down to living in a "Dharma Initiative" tropical camp that rewards the ones that bribe, steal, cheat, kill and torment, and slowly destroys the honest people.
 

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What can I say, Pic? That's obviously one point of view.

Let's look at it from the point of view of someone who was born in the country and has New Zealand citizenship (BTW, I am not a NZ citizen).

It's a global recession. People are being made redundant - including those who are in the country on work visas.

There are less jobs to go round. If there is a job going, am I more likely to give it to a New Zealander, or an immigrant?

If there is a person in the country on a work visa, but they can't find a job, then as a country what should we do? Give them social security pay-outs? Or send them home?

As difficult as it is, I think I know what the most likely answers are....
 

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WOW!!!!
Yes it may be more Socialist than "pic" likes, and the Maori activists etc get more attention than they deserve but I think "pic needs to get out of NZ and go home. "pic" has a little bit of an attitude problem which will definitely affect the way people will treat him/her. What a load of drivel.

I am returning to NZ after leaving for a few months - in 1986. I have been lucky enough to have the opportunity to visit and work in many countries in Europe and SE Asia (yes including the Kiwi 1st stop in OZ). And I would prefer Asia to Europe anytime.

And the reason I am coming back to NZ is so my (Asian) wife and daughter can grow up in an atmosphere of freedom, learn better English and finish her education to an internationally acceptable standard, not be subjected to the daily harassment of beggars in the streets, not be scared to drive or scared to even walk in the streets at night.

I would love to give my personal views on each country I have been to, but I would probably limit it to a sentence each not a diatribe that was not at all helpful to the person who started this thread......hmmm what was the question?
 

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Hi All,

(topcat83)

Thanks! I'll look into it.

(PIC)

That was the longest reply ever. Geez, thanks for taking the time out to write that 5 paragraph worth of your experience. I might have to re-read it again in case i missed out anything. Seems a little gloomy on your side, where's your next move gonna be?

(KiwiNomad)

Hey, good thing to return back to NZ. Which countries have you been? Look pretty easy for you to move around from countries to countries and work anywhere you like. Since, I'm not as nomadic as you, I would like an opinion from you regarding this thread - Visa Or Job First before packing my bags and heading to NZ? I don't want to be unprepared down under eventually.

Cheers Guys!
 

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The best advice one can give skilled NZ immigrants today is to wise up about NZ. Imagine working in a third world country or the former "DDR" and you get the picture. And befitting to a country only pretending to be a democratic capitalist economy, NZ is known amongst those who dare to read the fine print, to influence media and falsify statistics to appear like a "Britain in the Tropics". This can only be explained with the quite feeble and bribe/nepotism-riddled economy and the bad living conditions (bad housing, low wages, high crime) that apparently leave the government no choice to lie. If you haven't heard about these facts in the daily press it is due to the intelligent NZ news management. NZ earns as much (about 8 billion $) from Immigrants as from tourism. If you look closely, you can detect a policy to incorporate the immigrant savings within the first 2 years into the NZ economy without paying out any government benefits (not even if you are working and paying taxes). The majority of immigrants who has not "worked themselves poor" after these first two years, leaves, usually empty-handed and without savings. A government statistic states that 98% of immigrants are still there after 2 years. It was publicized on international travel and placed in "quality of life" articles. The truth is that only immigrants already in the country for more than 2 years have participated in it, so the majority of immigrants who had already left the country never showed up in the figures. Other "big claims" are just as unreal when you live here, like "green country", or "educational system that scored high in PISA". This is a place of make-believe. A prop-country.

In relation to work permits there are no rules that you couldn't find overthrown tomorrow. The economy is weak and unstable due to soft laws, bribing, nepotism and a brutal government employee attitude of "squeezing out money for oneself no matter what" commonly only found in this quantity in third world countries with an economically traumatized middle class like Guatemala. Any government official who can afford it has a house in other countries. That alone says a lot. And it is simply not true that the average person works less. If they want to get ahead and not drift through life with minimal money, they work the same hours, but in cold and damp offices, earnings half of what you get for the same work in Europe (if you get 40.000 EUR, expect to get 40.000 NZ$ here, which are 20.000 EUR). Yes, living costs are "the same" compared to the rest of the industrialized world, but you earn half, so what does that mean for your spending power in a country that imports everything from toothbrushes to TVs for regular EUR and US$ prices? Many working adults in Auckland can't even afford their own apartment and you can find many groups of 3-4 40 year olds accountants, sales people, bank employees or other middle class workers, sharing houses just because the rents are so ridiculously high and they are still paying off years for a simple TV. Buying houses can be a shocking experience. The houses are not insulated and without proper heating giving New Zealanders the highest asthma statistics. It's the kind of housing you buy as "garden sheds" in Europe. This alone must be one of the weirdest aspects of this bloated, false palm tree-economy and one of the main reasons my husband and I are leaving the country soon. No realistic relation between house prices and what you get for the money. A normal garden shed type house (a timber frame with wood panels nailed on) costs about as much as a "real" house in Europe made of stone, with heating and insulation, which you pay off with halved wages. Which means, NZlers actually never own their houses, but pay "rent" to the banks all their lives. Pretending to be more than one is, is a big sport here.

Recently a lot of European immigrants have been chased out of the country after they were fired and lost their work visas. It was a little national scandal going through the leading papers, Currently New Zealand is loosing many of the foreign skilled laborers they so feverishly tried bring into the country in the past years. Also 40.000 Kiwis leave for Australia every year (which is a lot with a population of 4 million), because of the bad wages while government agencies stall applications of immigrants. What you have heard about "better have a job before coming to NZ" is a result of of that blind, confused nationalistic activism. The job situation is especially bad for everyone "skilled" like Ad and Media professionals, teachers, consultants or other office or class room professionals. There are many stories of Europeans and US citizens being mobbed and excluded from positions which are continuously advertised as free. This is not Europe or the US, so being forced to work under inhumane conditions or being subjected to mobbing and racist jokes or being excluded based on gender, race or nationality is not something you can bring to court here. It is more likely that the police will come to your house to harass you, because one of his cousins works in the same office with you and heard that you had been complaining about NZ (when all you might have said is that you are freezing at your desk because the room is unheated and that this is something that could not happen in Europe)

Under such conditions, should you still try to get a work visa from Europe or the US before coming here? Why not, but it might not be worth the paper that it is written on, because you can easily spent 6 months to a year here (finance with your own money) without being hired (despite several jobs available you would be a perfect match for) and then you have to return anyway. And you couldn't even enjoy the beach, because you are burning away your savings and subjecing yourself to unjust treatment and a world of abuse where you as a person count little. If you really need to be in this country, come here for three months on a tourist visa in a test run, and see if you could get a job in your line of work and if the money would be enough and if you can stand the "socialist economy" attitudes, store inventory, housing, and the constant degrading comments about foreigners meant to be funny, but that just get on every immigrants nerves never after the 10th time while you degrade to just another NZ cash cow. The over-eagerly nice NZ people that do everything for paying tourists are the same people that will harass and ignore anyone who attempts to settle down here and take away "their" jobs.

In any case NZ itself is always the winner, financially, but at what cost. I shudder when I think about what moral values NZ destroys, just for a short-sighted, greedy gain of undoubtedly heavy immigrant savings. And if you see yourself in old age and think about your contribution to the world, is it really the right thing to do to spend your life supporting a degrading, nature and value destroying little country with low morale? I'm not a social worker or doctor, but the thought of me supporting this country by living here, while I see what it does to people and nature, and values is something that has gotten to me over the past two years. I don't think anyone serious about not only their carbon but also their "moral" footprint wants to have that on their conscience. And also, even if you get used to being the immigrant idiot everyone takes advantage of (especially when you are an intellectual and skilled and like doing a good job), and eventually learn to steal and bribe and cheat your way up the NZ social ladder "Number 8 wire" style (because there is no other way to do it), can you get over the fact that you've been compromised by a society where dishonesty is a high moral value?. How much can you enjoy a nice beach so that you forget that constant bad feeling in your stomach of supporting the wrong cause in a place far away from friends, family and decency? Europe and the US are not great achievements of mankind in many ways, but at least, they're not prop countries, a film set where everything looks like the real thing, but isn't. The only real thing here is the nature, and it comes down to living in a "Dharma Initiative" tropical camp that rewards the ones that bribe, steal, cheat, kill and torment, and slowly destroys the honest people.
That has confirmed my worse fears, and is sadly not the 1st time I have heard these views. It is these observations which are making us think we will not emmigrate to NZ.:confused:

Nice "Lost" analogy by the way!
 

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That has confirmed my worse fears, and is sadly not the 1st time I have heard these views. It is these observations which are making us think we will not emmigrate to NZ.:confused:

Nice "Lost" analogy by the way!
...but balance the number of positive posts to negatives on this forum.

I think there are way more people who are positive about this beautiful country than negative.

Good luck, wherever you end up.
 

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I, for one, have to (mostly) agree with pic.

My family (wife, 2 children) took a LONG look at relocating to NZ. Just so you understand our personal situation, my wife and I both have doctorates (she just received hers - took 7 years!), and we are both white collar professionals. I am an entrepreneur, and I have no fear of working for myself. Our children are at opposite ends of the developmental spectrum - one is very delayed; one is extremely advanced. The delayed child has a lot of medical issues, but he is quite stable and doing well. I filed an EOI, and we received enough points to apply despite not have any employment offers. One would think that my family (okay, not so much with my one child's issues, but otherwise) would be one that the NZ government would WANT to move there. So, we went to NZ, looked around for several weeks, returned to the US, and decided NOT to relocate there. Why?

1. Employment/Income/Expenses - yes, there is a global Great Recession, but, still, there are next to zero employment opportunities for either my wife or I, and, frankly, starting a business (legally) in NZ is next to impossible. What we were able to find for employment paid, on average, about 40% of what we earned in the US. Now, income is only half the equation - your living standard depends on income AND expenses. What we found was a joke. Everything is shockingly more expensive than in the US. Rents and housing prices are ridiculous, and the state of NZ housing stock is, and should be, a national scandal - mold, lack of insulation, poor construction, etc. Mortgages are not that easy to obtain, and the rates in NZ are much higher than in the US. Gas is triple what we pay here. Utilities - easily double. Food - double. Clothing - about 150% higher (and of much worse quality). Education - more expensive ("public" schools still require lots of fees to be paid - not so in the US). Taxes - about on par with the US now with the Obama Administration. So, we'd lose 60% of our income and pay double (or more) in expenses. Obviously, this isn't sustainable.

2. Culture - The notion that Kiwis are friendly and open to outsiders is totally false. While not outright, violently opposed to our presence, it was made clear to us, especially when we mentioned to some that we were looking to relocate to NZ, that we weren't welcome. Crime is, indeed, an issue in NZ - a lot of blossoming gang issues, especially for such a small country.

3. Education - the education system in NZ plays to the middle - basically, it's a race to mediocrity there. My delayed child? He'd suffer tremendously - few services and no assistance, unless you want to "buy" help, which would increase our expenses tremendously. My advanced child? Same issues, but in reverse. Excellence is not rewarded - it's more of a socialist, "let's all be the same" kind of attitude. The US seems some of this as well, but it's not nearly as bad here.

4. Healthcare - Despite all the joyous claims that nationalized medical care is such a great thing (thanks, Obama), we found the exact opposite. Long waits, poor care, etc. No thanks.

The list is endless, but we saw what we needed to see, and we decided to stay here. I'm not angry at NZ (unlike pic), but if you want to move there, you'd better be prepared for disappointment. It isn't what the stories say it is - no place really is. You may just be trading one type unhappiness with another.
 

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I, for one, have to (mostly) agree with pic.

My family (wife, 2 children) took a LONG look at relocating to NZ. Just so you understand our personal situation, my wife and I both have doctorates (she just received hers - took 7 years!), and we are both white collar professionals. I am an entrepreneur, and I have no fear of working for myself. Our children are at opposite ends of the developmental spectrum - one is very delayed; one is extremely advanced. The delayed child has a lot of medical issues, but he is quite stable and doing well. I filed an EOI, and we received enough points to apply despite not have any employment offers. One would think that my family (okay, not so much with my one child's issues, but otherwise) would be one that the NZ government would WANT to move there. So, we went to NZ, looked around for several weeks, returned to the US, and decided NOT to relocate there.
American Guy, you and your family are obviously in the lucky position of being a reasonably high income family - can I answer what our (and our friends experience) has been as middle-income families, mainly from the UK?

1. Employment/Income/Expenses - yes, there is a global Great Recession, but, still, there are next to zero employment opportunities for either my wife or I, and, frankly, starting a business (legally) in NZ is next to impossible. What we were able to find for employment paid, on average, about 40% of what we earned in the US.
I'd agree with this - we estimate our income to be about two-thirds what it was in the UK
Now, income is only half the equation - your living standard depends on income AND expenses. What we found was a joke. Everything is shockingly more expensive than in the US.
but we didn't find this when compared with the UK. And i think it would depend which part of the US you were living in.
Rents and housing prices are ridiculous
We certainly didn't find this. We have a beautiful 4 double-bedroomed house with views over the water to Auckland in a lovely suburb for the same price we paid for a small three-bedroomed semi in the outskirts of London.
and the state of NZ housing stock is, and should be, a national scandal - mold, lack of insulation, poor construction, etc.
....in SOME houses. There has been a problem with some houses built within a certain date range, and it HAS caused a national scandal. The thing to do is to be careful when choosing a house, or build your own. New builds are generally a very good quality now.
Mortgages are not that easy to obtain, and the rates in NZ are much higher than in the US.
And when compared to the UK. Probably the biggest issue here - a number of friends have overstretched themselves. The thing to do is to realise in advance and plan accordingly.
Gas is triple what we pay here. Utilities - easily double.
But not when compared to the UK.
Food - double.
Don't buy imported and stick to NZ produce and it isn't
Clothing - about 150% higher (and of much worse quality).
Depends where you shop. I've found some great clothes shops at really reasonable prices
Education - more expensive ("public" schools still require lots of fees to be paid - not so in the US).
'Public' schools have a donation system that it is strongly suggested you pay - but it is a donation, it tends to be at the higher decile schools (where the parents are in a high income bracket) and generally the education standard in these shcools is very good.
Taxes - about on par with the US now with the Obama Administration.
So you're obviously a Republican....... Could explain why some Kiwis weren't that friendly :)
So, we'd lose 60% of our income and pay double (or more) in expenses. Obviously, this isn't sustainable.
If i were you i'd stay at home :)

2. Culture - The notion that Kiwis are friendly and open to outsiders is totally false. While not outright, violently opposed to our presence, it was made clear to us, especially when we mentioned to some that we were looking to relocate to NZ, that we weren't welcome.
See comment above :) We've had no problems.
Crime is, indeed, an issue in NZ - a lot of blossoming gang issues, especially for such a small country.
You've obviously not been to London recently - Harrow is becoming a ghetto. In the NZ this tends to be limited to the Maori gangs, they keep themselves to themselves, and it's not 'blossoming' - it's been here for a long time, and is historical.

3. Education - the education system in NZ plays to the middle - basically, it's a race to mediocrity there. My delayed child? He'd suffer tremendously - few services and no assistance, unless you want to "buy" help, which would increase our expenses tremendously. My advanced child? Same issues, but in reverse. Excellence is not rewarded - it's more of a socialist, "let's all be the same" kind of attitude.
Can't comment on the delayed child - but at the advanced end? I have a friend with a gifted child, and they have nothing but praise. The child is helped at every stage by being put in classes at higher yeargroups for lessons, while still being encouraged to keep friends in her own yeargroup.

4. Healthcare - Despite all the joyous claims that nationalized medical care is such a great thing (thanks, Obama), we found the exact opposite. Long waits, poor care, etc. No thanks.
You can obviously afford the healthcare insurance that gives you that high level of care. Try asking someone who has been made redundant what they'd prefer - no health cover at all, or pretty decent health cover at a very reasonable cost. I know what I'd choose every time.

The list is endless, but we saw what we needed to see, and we decided to stay here. I'm not angry at NZ (unlike pic), but if you want to move there, you'd better be prepared for disappointment. It isn't what the stories say it is - no place really is. You may just be trading one type unhappiness with another.
I do recommend that people do their homework and don't come over with rose-coloured glasses.

And expect it to rain. There's a reason why the Maori name is 'Land of the Long White Cloud :D:D
 

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Hm, I guess I wrote myself into a hot frenzy there in "the worlds longest forum post". Nevertheless we just came back from a trip to one of the national parks (a word that means "protected land" in other countries). Again we were forced to rethink our decision to leave NZ, when looking at the breathtaking landscape. But then we saw that "national park" means "amusement park" in NZ, with 300 Ski Lifts on land that was donated by the Maori to be protected and cherished, not to be run to the ground with tourism. (I wonder who pockets the money that is made on the sacred mountains. The Maori chief who donated the land must turn in his grave with sad rage every winter season)

And to shorten the discussion about good versus bad comments: Your view onto NZ explains itself based on where you come from. If you come from Europe and the US, NZ is 2-3 grades down in job security, housing, democratic stability, safety and earning power. When you come from other countries, it is 2-10 grades up in all those aspects. I would bet that most of the positive posts were made by people originating from India, Asia, the former Soviet Union, South America, Eastern Europe, Africa and countries with similar political/economical/social conditions (or from people who live close to the bottom of the economic ladder in Europe or the US) No problem with NZ being at the lower end of democracy, if it wasn't for the falsified statistics and misleading brand image that NZ fabricates to trick international professionals into thinking they can find adequate work here. American Guy was clever and checked the facts personally before moving here. My husband and I, we just didn't think that a government would play with the asset of the hard working professionals that are the breadwinners of each country so carelessly. That still blows my mind, but it helps to see NZ as a third world country to understand how economic desperation drives a nation to exploit and then throw away the good people instead of using them to lift NZ out of poverty.

The heart wrenching aspect about New Zealand is that just the beauty of the landscape alone would justify living here, if new Zealanders wouldn't systematically destroy everything beautiful and turn the country into a trash-littered Trailer Park, which you have to look at every day as you drive through it to work or to the stores. And even if you found a still untouched piece of land, there would already be those ugly little sections, half filled with overpriced box houses that look like a dog sheds. You know, those houses where the bath tiles are put up on the outside (to hose down the house?) and where the top of the windows touch the roof (a design that takes the European traditional style and just saves a few inches of material resulting in this ridiculous caricature of a squashed wood cabin). Ironically, with that missing space above the windows it looks like the face of someone with a very low forehead.

And now people with countries that have been striped of all wood, fish, wildlife and other natural resources have discovered NZ and are in the process of consuming it up until there is nothing left. NZ is like a gigantic, mostly unprotected national conservation park and a little paradise for all who like to fish, hunt, camp and house-build the worlds ugliest houses, as if there was no tomorrow. For someone who doesn't give a damn, life is always easy and great, ESPECIALLY in New Zealand where one can safely harvest, cut down, run down, cover with concrete and litter with garbage. Of course these people would have only good things to say about NZ but I think I wouldn't have anything good to say about them.

It's not easy to leave NZ's natural beauty behind and we'll definitely be back, but not to work and live here, only as tourists, like all others who would have helped to push NZ to world standard but instead are pushed out by the mediocre and greedy who can now again be safely amongst themselves and continue to stew in their own juices.
 

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Hi Pic Lol! I just love reading your postings.....
Hm, I guess I wrote myself into a hot frenzy there in "the worlds longest forum post". Nevertheless we just came back from a trip to one of the national parks (a word that means "protected land" in other countries). Again we were forced to rethink our decision to leave NZ, when looking at the breathtaking landscape. But then we saw that "national park" means "amusement park" in NZ, with 300 Ski Lifts on land that was donated by the Maori to be protected and cherished, not to be run to the ground with tourism. (I wonder who pockets the money that is made on the sacred mountains. The Maori chief who donated the land must turn in his grave with sad rage every winter season)
300 ski lifts - I'd be amazed if there were 300 in the whole of NZ!!! In comparison to many countries 9including France) we have a very small ski industry - although it is growing.

And to shorten the discussion about good versus bad comments: Your view onto NZ explains itself based on where you come from. If you come from Europe and the US, NZ is 2-3 grades down in job security, housing, democratic stability, safety and earning power. When you come from other countries, it is 2-10 grades up in all those aspects. I would bet that most of the positive posts were made by people originating from India, Asia, the former Soviet Union, South America, Eastern Europe, Africa and countries with similar political/economical/social conditions (or from people who live close to the bottom of the economic ladder in Europe or the US)
Actually many of us (me included) come from the UK. Although I can't say the UK doesn't have its problems i don't think it fits into the categories you've just mentioned.....

No problem with NZ being at the lower end of democracy, if it wasn't for the falsified statistics and misleading brand image that NZ fabricates to trick international professionals into thinking they can find adequate work here.
NZ was the first country to give women the vote, and to have a woman PM. I personally think it is one of the most democratic countries I have ever visited. (after saying that, National is in now - with a few too many Thatcher-like policies for my liking :()

American Guy was clever and checked the facts personally before moving here.
Agreed - it isn't for everyone)

My husband and I, we just didn't think that a government would play with the asset of the hard working professionals that are the breadwinners of each country so carelessly. That still blows my mind, but it helps to see NZ as a third world country to understand how economic desperation drives a nation to exploit and then throw away the good people instead of using them to lift NZ out of poverty.
....except we were never in a depression when compared with the rest of the world. It really hasn't been that bad over the last couple of years. I know - I've been living and working here.

The heart wrenching aspect about New Zealand is that just the beauty of the landscape alone would justify living here, if new Zealanders wouldn't systematically destroy everything beautiful and turn the country into a trash-littered Trailer Park, which you have to look at every day as you drive through it to work or to the stores.[
Sorry - are we talking about the same country here? I don't recognise your description.

And even if you found a still untouched piece of land, there would already be those ugly little sections, half filled with overpriced box houses that look like a dog sheds. You know, those houses where the bath tiles are put up on the outside (to hose down the house?) and where the top of the windows touch the roof (a design that takes the European traditional style and just saves a few inches of material resulting in this ridiculous caricature of a squashed wood cabin). Ironically, with that missing space above the windows it looks like the face of someone with a very low forehead.
I think you've just become offensive and placed yourself firmly in the court of someone with a chip on their shoulder who should have their visa permanentlt rescinded.... This is my chosen country you are talking about and (warts and all) I love living here.

And now people with countries that have been striped of all wood, fish, wildlife and other natural resources have discovered NZ and are in the process of consuming it up until there is nothing left. NZ is like a gigantic, mostly unprotected national conservation park and a little paradise for all who like to fish, hunt, camp and house-build the worlds ugliest houses, as if there was no tomorrow. For someone who doesn't give a damn, life is always easy and great, ESPECIALLY in New Zealand where one can safely harvest, cut down, run down, cover with concrete and litter with garbage. Of course these people would have only good things to say about NZ but I think I wouldn't have anything good to say about them.
I was surprised about the number of 'hunter-gatherers' there are in NZ - but that is because they have looked after their resources, and therefore there are things to hunt and gather. For example, there are very strict quotas and rules about the number and size of fish that you can take. Paua (abalone) cannot be harvested using scuba gear. There are extremely strict rules THAT ARE ENFORCED. You can have your car and boat confiscated if you are caught breaking the rules. There are large marine reserves and national parks. Many islands off the coast are now home to endangered species. Hydroelectric schemes have been curtailed to prevent the raising of some lakes. Does this sound like a country that is not looking after its wildlife and natural resources?

It's not easy to leave NZ's natural beauty behind and we'll definitely be back, but not to work and live here, only as tourists, like all others who would have helped to push NZ to world standard but instead are pushed out by the mediocre and greedy who can now again be safely amongst themselves and continue to stew in their own juices.
Please don't come back, even as a tourist - we don't want someone who slags us off. Find somewhere else to slag off - I'm sure you will.

We need people who will be a positive influence on this country, and I don't think you make the grade.
 

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Hi Pic Lol! I just love reading your postings.....300 ski lifts - I'd be amazed if there were 300 in the whole of NZ!!! In comparison to many countries 9including France) we have a very small ski industry - although it is growing.

Actually many of us (me included) come from the UK. Although I can't say the UK doesn't have its problems i don't think it fits into the categories you've just mentioned.....

NZ was the first country to give women the vote, and to have a woman PM. I personally think it is one of the most democratic countries I have ever visited. (after saying that, National is in now - with a few too many Thatcher-like policies for my liking :()

Agreed - it isn't for everyone)

....except we were never in a depression when compared with the rest of the world. It really hasn't been that bad over the last couple of years. I know - I've been living and working here.

Sorry - are we talking about the same country here? I don't recognise your description.

I think you've just become offensive and placed yourself firmly in the court of someone with a chip on their shoulder who should have their visa permanentlt rescinded.... This is my chosen country you are talking about and (warts and all) I love living here.

I was surprised about the number of 'hunter-gatherers' there are in NZ - but that is because they have looked after their resources, and therefore there are things to hunt and gather. For example, there are very strict quotas and rules about the number and size of fish that you can take. Paua (abalone) cannot be harvested using scuba gear. There are extremely strict rules THAT ARE ENFORCED. You can have your car and boat confiscated if you are caught breaking the rules. There are large marine reserves and national parks. Many islands off the coast are now home to endangered species. Hydroelectric schemes have been curtailed to prevent the raising of some lakes. Does this sound like a country that is not looking after its wildlife and natural resources?


Please don't come back, even as a tourist - we don't want someone who slags us off. Find somewhere else to slag off - I'm sure you will.

We need people who will be a positive influence on this country, and I don't think you make the grade.
I want to be an asset to NZ, but I can't find work over there, despite having PR. It is very difficult to find a middle ground, people either hate, or love NZ. I have PR but I am seriously thinking about staying put.
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 · (Edited)
Obviously people either hate or love NZ. The ones that hate NZ usually back up their opinion with pacts, the "happy clappers" don't. Searching for the reasons for this phenomena I came across Judith Schalansky's book "An Atlas of Remote Islands". In it she describes the psychological effect that makes island people develop an "us against the rest of the world" mindset, with mantras thrown at "non-believers", such as:

-"if you don't like it (exactly as it is), you can go home"
-"you've got an attitude problem"
-"it's all in your head"
-"if you would try more, you would like it"

The further away the island, the more fanatic, irrational and aggressive the behavior get. The strange aggression of which Topcats "let's revoke all thinking-people's visas" is only the tip of the iceberg, remind one of the fanatic followers in dictatorships or religious cults. Topcat83 shows his own island irrationality with the 300 ski lifts. The first assumption someone who was not bitten by the island bug would have, is that I, the traveler, saw a sign at the mountain or in a tourist guide advertising the 300 ski lifts. Why would I make up this number? But if making up stories is your daily madness, then assuming that everyone else is a liar, too, would be, of course your natural reaction. Or, as George Carlin said: language always gives you away.

It's a waste of time to discuss post of island fanatics, unless you have a medical interest in the workings of a mind out of touch with reality. All you get are the standard mantras, randomly inserted after facts, combined with staged theatrical outrage. And then, the same unprofessionalism that makes people become fanatics, makes people like Big-Brother-soldier Topcat83 (who would chase all real professionals out of the country), turn like a leaf in the wind and give tourists a fat grin that buy his overpriced honey or stay in his moldy guest room without central heating for 100 Dollars a night. That reminds me of the hotel owner near Taupo who waltzed into our room after we'd checked in to inform us that we get central heating "free of charge". Pointing at the rusty radiator he waited for compliments which I had to give him 3 times before he finally left . The gurgling thing, overpainted many times was like the ones we used to have in the 70s in Europe. Certainly nothing to be proudly offered "free of charge". Needless to say that for the "special price" of 85 compare to the regular 120, the rest of the room was equally out of touch with reality. So much for Topcat's idea "we need people who will be a positive influence on this country, and I don't think you make the grade". If that is the kind of positive influence one makes in NZ, then I agree, I would never be able to match that particular grade of shamelessness. That is in a league of its own.

And speaking of "out of touch", anyone who has ever talked to the national park rangers will quickly learn that the ones not abiding to the quotes, fishing in protected ares, spreading diseases and leaving their trash, are not the tourist but always Kiwis. And since rangers can't give out fines or arrest people ( just tell them to leave) just makes the Kiwis hang around at the park entrance and sneak in again at night. Rules with random instead of comprehensive enforcement are worthless, as anyone knows, who thinks.

All in all, NZ is the quick-tongued but lazy-brained scam artist's paradise and in a sane world, NZ would revoke citizenship to people with Topcats attitudes. But the crooks and dreamers own this beautiful place and there is nothing the honest and hard-working people can do about it. Ironically, just because of people like Topcat, NZ desperately needs people like me as tourists who bring in the money in a way it's own citizens can't. But sometimes you wish the fanatics would actually manage to chase away all constructive, creative hands-on professionals so that the trailer park lovers that have no problem with the garbage and the squashed houses could be amongst themselves. Then they could really run the place down, until only the most deranged ones would not get the facts. I fear NZ is just about heading to that future.
 

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Pic, I'm not going to answer your diatribe again.

I will say this - Kiwis - both those born in the country and us new immigrants - are very proud of our country. That doesn't mean to say we are blind to it's problems - of which it has many.

What we quite rightly don't like are people slagging us off in the kind of way that you have in your postings. Can you imagine if someone came over to France for a visit and then wrote the kinds of things you have been saying?

It's not what you are saying but the way you are saying it which is insulting.
 

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One person's experience is not the only one. It appears that Pic has had an unhappy time in NZ, but this is far from the case for many people. Not every country is suitable for every person. Sometimes people are not successful and have to blame a whole country for this.

-
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 · (Edited)
Do I really have to explain what fanaticism is now? Fanaticism is a state of mind where someone mixes self esteem with an abstract idea (a belief, a country, a theory etc). The technique to make someone mix up love of a country with self-love is used in the military to make a soldier die for the country, and it is understandable in historic context why this is done. Here, the absurdity is that the fanatic happy clappers in this forum don't get paid, don't get any medals and have no other advantages except an artificial sense of pride or honor they are unable to experience on their own.

So if I say something negative about the country NZ, a fanatic takes it as if it was an attack on a person, or a group of people, or him personally. Because normally, unless someone was actually committing all the things that I criticized: littering, scamming etc, why would a person get all emotional about it? So if someone does get emotional, he either did commit all or some of these things himself, or he's a fanatic. Neither of the two have a place in a modern society which NZ claims to be. Fanatic behavior combined with the "we against the rest" island mentality, and you got yourself a self-proclaimed civilian army. Just what the world needs. More aggressive honor-junkies in search for any opportunity to separate people based on nationality, race, gender or ideas, and not based on justice and value of work, as is common in countries NZ tries to compete with.

In Europe and the US, the standard middle class person, like me, doesn't feel personally offended if someone says anything bad about a country, their own or any other, especially if there are facts to back it up. "We" don't connect self-esteem with a nation but with personal achievement. Pride alone without personal achievement doesn't make for a good citizen, either. Adhering to country rules does, at which Kiwis are particularly bad at. And again, this is not about people "visiting" NZ, but about professionals being giving a PR by the NZ government and then immigrating, based on false information. A different thing. Paying attention helps to follow subjects.

Elphaba's trick to reduce the facts to the personal experience of an individual who "wasn't successful enough" is questionable. I can see what Elphaba intended with that remark: that I feel like some sort of looser for not "making it" (again, one of the mantras "I didn't try hard enough") thus blaming a whole country for my own failure. But if you've already made it in other countries, and have job offers in NZ, and earn good money with the quality of your work, here and overseas, and have qualifications that are recognized in other countries, not just NZ, this trick just doesn't work. It would work on someone who has little skills or qualifications or professionalism and needs to inflate himself with national pride to feel good, but it just doesn't work on the professionals that NZ has called into the country with free PRs. All that happens is that I see how much this post goes "under the belt line" to attack personally, where one would expect arguments. More fanatic blurbs, this time combined with manipulative personal attacks. Great. More of what makes NZ such a "great place" to live in.

And while you are stomping around with hurt citizen's pride, did it ever occur to you, that those fellow NZ citizens Topcat so generously included in this "we" actually pay him and most other Kiwis half wages, then charge them up the nose for all the nice consumer products, while you guys stumble over yourself here in a desperate attempt to defend some sort of Kiwi honor that has no benefits for you but a soft, cuddly feeling of belonging. Your fellow Kiwi buddies also sell you second rate products that don't sell in Europe and the US. Meanwhile your Kiwi buddies are in their million dollar houses on Hawaii, in the States or in Australia, rubbing their hands and laughing at the naiveté of the old and new citizens. Fanaticism is good business. You guys are even spending your own free time on forums to defend the system that keeps you in poverty. Good on you mate, for being such devoted Kiwi sect soldier, but there are other people who just want to be normal citizens, not sect members.
 

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Do I really have to explain what fanaticism is now? Fanaticism is a state of mind where someone mixes self esteem with an abstract idea (a belief, a country, a theory etc). The technique to make someone mix up love of a country with self-love is used in the military to make a soldier die for the country, and it is understandable in historic context why this is done. Here, the absurdity is that the fanatic happy clappers in this forum don't get paid, don't get any medals and have no other advantages except an artificial sense of pride or honor they are unable to experience on their own.

So if I say something negative about the country NZ, a fanatic takes it as if it was an attack on a person, or a group of people, or him personally. Because normally, unless someone was actually committing all the things that I criticized: littering, scamming etc, why would a person get all emotional about it? So if someone does get emotional, he either did commit all or some of these things himself, or he's a fanatic. Neither of the two have a place in a modern society which NZ claims to be. Fanatic behavior combined with the "we against the rest" island mentality, and you got yourself a self-proclaimed civilian army. Just what the world needs. More aggressive honor-junkies in search for any opportunity to separate people based on nationality, race, gender or ideas, and not based on justice and value of work, as is common in countries NZ tries to compete with.

In Europe and the US, the standard middle class person, like me, doesn't feel personally offended if someone says anything bad about a country, their own or any other, especially if there are facts to back it up. "We" don't connect self-esteem with a nation but with personal achievement. Pride alone without personal achievement doesn't make for a good citizen, either. Adhering to country rules does, at which Kiwis are particularly bad at. And again, this is not about people "visiting" NZ, but about professionals being giving a PR by the NZ government and then immigrating, based on false information. A different thing. Paying attention helps to follow subjects.

Elphaba's trick to reduce the facts to the personal experience of an individual who "wasn't successful enough" is questionable. I can see what Elphaba intended with that remark: that I feel like some sort of looser for not "making it" (again, one of the mantras "I didn't try hard enough") thus blaming a whole country for my own failure. But if you've already made it in other countries, and have job offers in NZ, and earn good money with the quality of your work, here and overseas, and have qualifications that are recognized in other countries, not just NZ, this trick just doesn't work. It would work on someone who has little skills or qualifications or professionalism and needs to inflate himself with national pride to feel good, but it just doesn't work on the professionals that NZ has called into the country with free PRs. All that happens is that I see how much this post goes "under the belt line" to attack personally, where one would expect arguments. More fanatic blurbs, this time combined with manipulative personal attacks. Great. More of what makes NZ such a "great place" to live in.

And while you are stomping around with hurt citizen's pride, did it ever occur to you, that those fellow NZ citizens Topcat so generously included in this "we" actually pay him and most other Kiwis half wages, then charge them up the nose for all the nice consumer products, while you guys stumble over yourself here in a desperate attempt to defend some sort of Kiwi honor that has no benefits for you but a soft, cuddly feeling of belonging. Your fellow Kiwi buddies also sell you second rate products that don't sell in Europe and the US. Meanwhile your Kiwi buddies are in their million dollar houses on Hawaii, in the States or in Australia, rubbing their hands and laughing at the naiveté of the old and new citizens. Fanaticism is good business. You guys are even spending your own free time on forums to defend the system that keeps you in poverty. Good on you mate, for being such devoted Kiwi sect soldier, but there are other people who just want to be normal citizens, not sect members.

Sadly your posts are much too long and far too deep for me to read, but from what I can gather you're not happy living where you are??

It doesnt matter what others think or why, what matters is your own happiness which you must go and find, as we all must - remember lifes too short to be unhappy

Jo xxx
 

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In Europe and the US, the standard middle class person, like me, doesn't feel personally offended if someone says anything bad about a country, their own or any other, especially if there are facts to back it up. "We" don't connect self-esteem with a nation but with personal achievement. Pride alone without personal achievement doesn't make for a good citizen, either. Adhering to country rules does, at which Kiwis are particularly bad at. And again, this is not about people "visiting" NZ, but about professionals being giving a PR by the NZ government and then immigrating, based on false information. A different thing.
Having lived for seven, long miserable years in France before I got my head around the differences and how I was wasting time making myself miserable, I have to disagree with you here.

Trust me, if you're miserable in France, you give immense offense by pointing out that the French don't seem to like to follow their own laws either. (Think, speed limits, helmet laws for motorbikes, paying taxes, etc. etc.) Repeat the same political jokes in France that a Frenchman tells, and you'll get a real earful about national pride if you're a foreigner. (Or even if you have French nationality but weren't born here.)

The Americans take offense just as easily (if not more so). I've managed to offend my fellow countrymen just by mentioning things I've noted about American society in the time I've lived elsewhere.

If you're planning on staying where you are, you ultimately develop a sense of humor about the things that drive you nuts. Write it off to the "charm" of the locals or whatever you have to do to live with it.

And hop on over to the France section here to see what drives the immigrants wild about the inefficient and stupid ways of France, its people and its government. Then tell me that "middle class people" in Europe and America don't take offense when you take the mickey on their country.
Cheers,
Bev
 

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Obviously people either hate or love NZ. The ones that hate NZ usually back up their opinion with pacts, the "happy clappers" don't. Searching for the reasons for this phenomena I came across Judith Schalansky's book "An Atlas of Remote Islands". In it she describes the psychological effect that makes island people develop an "us against the rest of the world" mindset, with mantras thrown at "non-believers", such as:

-"if you don't like it (exactly as it is), you can go home"
-"you've got an attitude problem"
-"it's all in your head"
-"if you would try more, you would like it"

The further away the island, the more fanatic, irrational and aggressive the behavior get. The strange aggression of which Topcats "let's revoke all thinking-people's visas" is only the tip of the iceberg, remind one of the fanatic followers in dictatorships or religious cults. Topcat83 shows his own island irrationality with the 300 ski lifts. The first assumption someone who was not bitten by the island bug would have, is that I, the traveler, saw a sign at the mountain or in a tourist guide advertising the 300 ski lifts. Why would I make up this number? But if making up stories is your daily madness, then assuming that everyone else is a liar, too, would be, of course your natural reaction. Or, as George Carlin said: language always gives you away.

It's a waste of time to discuss post of island fanatics, unless you have a medical interest in the workings of a mind out of touch with reality. All you get are the standard mantras, randomly inserted after facts, combined with staged theatrical outrage. And then, the same unprofessionalism that makes people become fanatics, makes people like Big-Brother-soldier Topcat83 (who would chase all real professionals out of the country), turn like a leaf in the wind and give tourists a fat grin that buy his overpriced honey or stay in his moldy guest room without central heating for 100 Dollars a night. That reminds me of the hotel owner near Taupo who waltzed into our room after we'd checked in to inform us that we get central heating "free of charge". Pointing at the rusty radiator he waited for compliments which I had to give him 3 times before he finally left . The gurgling thing, overpainted many times was like the ones we used to have in the 70s in Europe. Certainly nothing to be proudly offered "free of charge". Needless to say that for the "special price" of 85 compare to the regular 120, the rest of the room was equally out of touch with reality. So much for Topcat's idea "we need people who will be a positive influence on this country, and I don't think you make the grade". If that is the kind of positive influence one makes in NZ, then I agree, I would never be able to match that particular grade of shamelessness. That is in a league of its own.

And speaking of "out of touch", anyone who has ever talked to the national park rangers will quickly learn that the ones not abiding to the quotes, fishing in protected ares, spreading diseases and leaving their trash, are not the tourist but always Kiwis. And since rangers can't give out fines or arrest people ( just tell them to leave) just makes the Kiwis hang around at the park entrance and sneak in again at night. Rules with random instead of comprehensive enforcement are worthless, as anyone knows, who thinks.

All in all, NZ is the quick-tongued but lazy-brained scam artist's paradise and in a sane world, NZ would revoke citizenship to people with Topcats attitudes. But the crooks and dreamers own this beautiful place and there is nothing the honest and hard-working people can do about it. Ironically, just because of people like Topcat, NZ desperately needs people like me as tourists who bring in the money in a way it's own citizens can't. But sometimes you wish the fanatics would actually manage to chase away all constructive, creative hands-on professionals so that the trailer park lovers that have no problem with the garbage and the squashed houses could be amongst themselves. Then they could really run the place down, until only the most deranged ones would not get the facts. I fear NZ is just about heading to that future.
You, sir, are a comedy genius and I salute you. Although very scathing in your incisive wit, you are nevertheless very entertaining.
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
@Pepperpot
you're probably the only one here who got that this is a forum. Threads like these are such great kickboxing classes in which you get to try out not only the polite and civilized moves but also all the really cool nasty and aggressive ones of which you hope you will never have to use them in the real world. I don't think I kicked as low as some of the others did, though.

While some forums are better for the regular comedy writing, this one with its typical Kiwi audience pulls one to go a bit …further…. on the directness scale. But it was still fun practice. And the Kiwi input makes the entire thread a good answers for all professionals really pondering the visa/work question: It's not yes/no, or either/or, but neither/nor, for just the reasons one can read out of the Kiwi posts. A thread like this could have helped me two years ago to burst the bubble of NZ propaganda and understand, that people with the quality and efficiency - oriented work style don't stand a chance here against the majority of proud-to-be-short poppies. If a few more of the honest people being lured here can *get* that neither work nor visa is the right thing to do, before moving here, then we've actually achieved something good and done or part for world honesty. Nothing beats a good uncovering of what you won't find in any brochure: the hidden agendas.

The French at least don't have a hidden agenda of this magnitude. (I guess you don't need hidden agendas when you have *the Louvre*) allowing immigrants to make real choices. You are not being lured in with silvery, official looking, worthless visa glued into your passport. There are no french statistics downplaying the facts that getting a job in France is difficult, so we've already arranged to work in the UK and German. If we had known right from the start, that NZ is a third world mess with clean streets, we could have created a smiler strategy here in NZ and continued to gain NZ hundreds of thousands of dollars in the coming years. But the shortsighted Kiwis have won, and another country will pocket that money, because, you gotta pay taxes somewhere.

Who would guess that a whole country could focus all its activities on a short con and transform itself into a giant film set made to look good in a travel brochure, with every door fake or locked if you tried to open it. And even the PR is a prop. NZ was the last option on our list we really wanted to try, the last dream a European dreams of a place where one can self-actualize ideas of a healthier lifestyle. English speaking, functioning economy, good education, nice people, little crime, clean and green. And it's all fake. All of it. Even the English-speaking part. Or whatever that stilted language with the strange upwards intonation is, that the under 50 year olds have regressed into, making every sentence a question. Maybe unconsciously expressing an insecurity in the spine of growing up in the all-encompassing fake world their parent's have created here?. So now we move on to other countries with similar lifestyle, but saner economy and more exclamation than question marks.

We'll be leaving through the door in the blue horizon and let all who can't stand our growing awareness continue the artificial daily NZ soap on this cruel little Truman island.
 

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@Pic. I really hope things work out for you. I have indeed visited the Louvre and it was awe-inspiring. I have clung onto my NZ dream for some time now, but I feel the the life draining from it at a rapid pace. We are unable to find anyone here who would trade places with us and go to NZ, and really start to feel we have been conned. It is a shame that so many go down this path and invest such large amounts of time and money into something that will be ultimately fruitless. I am 90% resolved to the fact that I will be staying put.
 
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