The key question to start with is not what the odds are of "getting away with it" but rather "What are the penalties if caught"?

My understanding is that having an EU Country's residency card ONLY gives you rights to stay in that EU country. Venture to another one and the "90 in 180 day rolling" Schengen limits apply. (This is certianly the case for me - CH permit, UK citizen). So overstaying 90 days in France would incurr penalties regardless of their ES permit - penalties which include a 5 year ban on entering Schengen. Not sure how that ban affects the existing EU country's residency permit (it might be grounds for instant forfeiture?).

The fact of the matter is all EU systems are getting linked up, some already are. I have already been questioned by French border control over my dates of entering/leaving because I came in via a port when driving to Switzerland in January, and next time the systems "saw" me I was leaving from a French airport 6 months later. So it's not "will they get caught?" but "when will they?".

You don't say how they get their income or where they are taxed at the moment (although we could assume Spain taxes them but they get a UK pension?). The tax residency issue is another whole barrel of fish.

But you can't tell some people...

Kind regards


Ian

 

Trust me - they have been warned of the 90/180 rule & the penalties if caught. They are simply certain that they never will be & don't seem to believe what they have been told regarding penalties.

No pensions involved. Atm one works & pays tax here - not sure about the other - but the plan is to leave that job & live off rental income from a property here in Spain & probably not pay tax anywhere ( I think).



I feel that it's more a when than an if they get caught. For those of you who live in France, does that seem to be likely?

 

Yes, but Switzerland is not part of the EU, so your situation is different. That's of course not an endorsement of trying to do what that couple wants to do.

 

Agreed - but to the French I'm just a Brit travelling on a UK passport, just as they will be. And the Swiss have implemented their permit rules to mostly align with EU-wide regulations, as part of their "special relationship" that allows free movement in Schengen. So practically, it is the same - whether a holder of a Spanish residence permit or a Swiss one, a Brit can only stay in France for up to 90 days within a 180-day period as a tourist. For longer stays, we both need to apply for a long-stay visa before arriving, and validate it upon arrival then apply for a French residence permit.

Kind regards


Ian

 

I had a notion that France had reintroduced border checks with its neighbours last year? Or maybe it was just a temporary thing. But I guess what with concerns about illegal immigration it could happen at any time.
Beats me why some people seem to go out of their way to invite problems into their lives. They know perfectly well what the rules allow / don't allow, they decide to do what the rules don't allow, then they post all over social media because they want people to tell them it'll all be fine, they can do whatever they like because the rules don't apply to Brits.
It's not just about breaking one rule and getting away with it though is it. The issue is that once you put yourself in an irregular situation there can be all kinds of unwanted consequences that the set of rules as a whole was carefully designed to protect you from, if followed. Incoherences with healthcare, vehicle insurance, travel insurance, taxation...
But hey, if they're bored with their lives and they want the frisson of breaking a few rules to to see if they 'get away with it', it's nobody's biz but theirs and potentially the authorities'.

 

Why would they do it though? Apart from the legal consequences they have no insurance, are not covered for anything. It's often the opposite and people are begging to be official residents and live freely without having to worry.

 

I just saw an article about a new system going in regarding Schengen area travel - something about doing a fingerprint and facial scan the first time crossing the border and after that it's all "automatic" somehow. I wasn't paying real strict attention, but my reaction was "oh boy, they're serious about this now." It may only apply to air and/or train travel, but you never know how these things will develop.

Technically, they "should" get a long-stay visa for France and then rely on the "Schengen visa" permission to stay up to 90 days in Spain. But, given some of the proposals for visas and residence permissions that are being discussed in France just now, they'd have to renew their French residence cards annually for at least 5 years until they can pass a French language test at a B2 (I think it is) to qualify for a 10 year card.

There is also the issue of how long/often they can be outside of Spain to retain their Spanish residency - though that's your bailiwick. Not to mention the current brouhaha in the French government combined with the upcoming presidential elections in 2027 with the distinct possibility of the RN (LePen and her buddies) taking over. Their plans might work out for a year or so - but after that.....

 

I just saw an article about a new system going in regarding Schengen area travel - something about doing a fingerprint and facial scan the first time crossing the border and after that it's all "automatic" somehow.

I think you may be referring to the EU "Entry/Exit System (EES)" that came into force on 12th October. Most people crossing into the Schengen zone from outside will be required to do biometric ID - face, fingerprints, etc. In the long term this will eliminate the need to stamp passports and all entry and exit data will be databased so the 90/180 day rule can be automated. It's being phased in over the next few months. "Most" people means non-EU citizens and residents, which is a bit of a fuzzy definition but the precise list is on this EU site. ASFAIK there is no implementation if one crosses frontiers within the Schengen zone, and in any case with a resident card one is exempt.

Remains to be seen if the border controls are informed enough, and patient enough, to accept that the CdS is enough to exempt a traveller. In any case, I imagine long queues while the system beds in.

Otherwise we crossed from France into Spain on Wednesday last and there was no border control at all on a road over the Pyrénées, and for the return journey on the autoroute past Irun and Hendaye there were three gendarmes chatting at the last toll booths, and casting an occasional glance at the traffic.

 

Yup, that EES thing sounds like exactly what I must have seen.

One other caveat is that the French don't do much direct "enforcement" of these kinds of immigration laws and issues. The French approach is more to make your life miserable if you don't have the proper documents (in this case, the French residence permit) - particularly in matters that relate to where you live while you're in France, things like registering your car, paying your local taxes (if you, for example, own your home in France), setting up a bank account, etc. etc. You may get away with it for a while, but when you find that situation that absolutely requires that you show a residence card or produce your avis d'imposition (tax assessment) or any number of other niggly little bureaucratic procedures they'll catch up with you and it won't be fun at all.

 

They need some kind of complicity in France - in Dordogne or the Limousin there are strong Brit communuties to meld into.
A vehicle, car or camper van.
UK numberplates are common all year round here - more than Spanish plates.
Rented, furnished accommodation, all utility bills included and obviously paid for in cash.
Need to be in good health, no chronic conditions, although as Spanish residents there's a European reciprocal healthcare convention.
I've had free healthcare in Spain as a French resident.
Need to keep out of trouble just a minimum, as Brits aren't top targets for surprise police checks.
All legal and moral issues set aside, if they're set on doing it despite all contrary advice, this seems a reasonable configuration.

 

Another thing to consider is that some people are paying car insurance but actually aren't insured. Police checks aside, if they are driving a car they should read the fine print.

 

All they need is to have an accident or rub one of their neighbours up the wrong way then they are in trouble .It will be these sort of things that catch them out

 

I maintain that hereabouts: departments Charente, Indre, Creuse, Corrèze, Haute Vienne, Dordogne and probably others have close-knit strong Brit communities and unless the newcomers are set on swindling their compatriots, they'll just melt in.

Spanish plates will raise eyebrows because they never hang around for months here.
Otherwise a camper van or bungalow in a residential camping site.

 

Automatic number plate recognition (ANPR) is nowhere near as pervasive in France as it is in the UK, but even so it is spreading. The plan is to replace all autoroute toll machines by ANPR in the next year or so, and some towns - Toulouse for example - already have it. I'd be very surprised if it is not already installed on most frontier crossings. I guess it would be technically possible to flag up all vehicles that overstay, but not very likely. But that data would be available if there were any questions about when a certain vehicle entered France.

 

In France it's already operational for detecting if a French vehicle has valid insurance,
if the owner has a valid driving license etc.
But as for access to databases from other countries - not yet as far as I know ...

 

I live on the Spanish - French border and go into France once a month and 9-10 there are French police controlling incoming vehicles. We have Spanish plate numbers, never ever got stopped. But if they stop you they will ask for ID.