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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam
How did I miss all these posts - JoJo & Sunflower you really had me laughing!!!!
The problem, unfortunately, is not only the Egyptian men. Yes they are low and dirty and creepy and and and... BUT I see every day these sort of people hand in hand with their foreign "love". If these idiotic women actually believe these men love them then these men are going to continue to prey on foreign women in any way they can, they keep getting what they want. I see it especially in real estate - many Egyptian "boys" have passed through our doors with their considerably older foreign "wife" looking for places to buy, and the Egyptians in some cases even have the audacity to say in Arabic in front of them that they will be looking for commission from the sale!!! Now that makes me sick.
Which leads to another topic, if you marry a foreigner (any nationality) should you not try to learn their language? Even if you never become fluent, a basic knowledge is surely essential, especially if you will be living in their country, meeting their family etc.


At the suggestion of MS after sticky becoming a little off topic - I am starting a new topic :D

Helen - I am in 100% agreement with you. Not just if you are in a mixed relationship should you try to learn their language, but if you are living in a foreign country you should try to learn the local language. Perhaps you do not need to be fluent if you are not in a relationship with an Egyptian and only living here, not necessarily integrating with the locals. Especially if you are here on a temporary basis. BUT basics are essential, in many situations (especially in Cairo) the taxi driver, shop assistant etc will not understand English. And in Sharm a little Arabic will get you "local prices" not "foreigner prices", which hugely differ in value!

But, if the topic is specifically about marriage to an Egyptian and learning Arabic there are many other factors to take into consideration. Communicating with his family - yes this is a part of it, especially if they are from a poorly educated background with little or no English. There is also politeness - a whole group of people shouldn't all have to use a foreign language just because one person can't speak their home language. There is the case of having children, and being able to communicate with and understand your child in all scenarios (from personal experience I can say my daughter is more comfortable speaking in Arabic than English). Finally there is the worst case - that your husband is a fraud and you need to understand him when he is openly trying to cheat you.


My suggestion. Perhaps those of us who have experience of Egyptian-Foreigner relationships should give advice to any women on this forum who currently have an Egyptian boyfriend (or Orphi married husband) and are thinking of taking the next step - legalising the marriage, moving here, moving him there or otherwise. Whilst there are a few relationships that do have a happy ending, most do not work out. This is not necessarily because the guy is a fraud and trying to take a visa or money, all relationships will have problems regardless of nationality, race, culture etc, but as I have witnessed & experienced, mixed culture relationships can be particularly problematic. The women involved are usually too in love to see the truth and often don't want to, and their friends are usually more than encouraging. I am not posting this because I believe I am a relationship expert, I am posting this because I wish someone had knocked some sense into me three and a half years ago (even if I hadn't of listened :p ). I also know of multiple cases of heart broken women who have lost more than just a husband who wish someone had knocked sense into them. This is a very sensitive topic and I hope I have not offended anyone, I just wanted to offer experience and insight for anyone who wants it, and I'm sure I'm not the only one here who can :)
 

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The problem, unfortunately, is not only the Egyptian men. Yes they are low and dirty and creepy and and and
I hope I have not offended anyone
I would suspect you have! None of my brothers-in-law (I married an Egyptian girl) are like that. The people I've worked with aren't either. I'm not for one moment saying there aren't bad eggs. Not for one moment. But would you be happy if someone posted a statement saying: "black men are low and dirty and creepy and and and...", even if they'd had a bad experience? Generalising like that is very racist and that's what gives foreigners a bad name.

these idiotic women actually believe these men love them then these men are going to continue to prey on foreign women
Hell of a cynical attitude too. Just because one of them is a foreigner, doesn't mean a couple isn't in love or the marriage is destined to break up. Look at the divorce rate between married couples from the same country. Not much better.

Egyptians in some cases even have the audacity to say in Arabic in front of them that they will be looking for commission from the sale!!! Now that makes me sick.
Why? They're trying to save money. What's wrong with that? Never negotiated anything? Especially when later on we have:
a little Arabic will get you "local prices" not "foreigner prices"
Doesn't it make you sick that a foreigner is trying to get local prices?

With that sort of better-than-thou attitude, what the hell you doing living in a foreign land?
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
I would suspect you have! None of my brothers-in-law (I married an Egyptian girl) are like that. The people I've worked with aren't either. I'm not for one moment saying there aren't bad eggs. Not for one moment. But would you be happy if someone posted a statement saying: "black men are low and dirty and creepy and and and...", even if they'd had a bad experience? Generalising like that is very racist and that's what gives foreigners a bad name.


Hell of a cynical attitude too. Just because one of them is a foreigner, doesn't mean a couple isn't in love or the marriage is destined to break up. Look at the divorce rate between married couples from the same country. Not much better.


Why? They're trying to save money. What's wrong with that? Never negotiated anything? Especially when later on we have:

Doesn't it make you sick that a foreigner is trying to get local prices?

With that sort of better-than-thou attitude, what the hell you doing living in a foreign land?
Wow, thanks for taking everything out of context!!!
Perhaps you should read the original thread in which this came from before shooting me down.

The topic being previously discussed was specifically the fraudulent Egyptian men who led women to believe they loved them and then married them for the sole purpose of their own benefit (money, visa etc). It was not about Egyptian men as a whole. I was commenting simply that the victims in this case should also be held somewhat liable for allowing themselves to be conned.

"Hell of a cynical attitude too. Just because one of them is a foreigner, doesn't mean a couple isn't in love or the marriage is destined to break up. Look at the divorce rate between married couples from the same country. Not much better."
If you read my post again you will find that I have mentioned that all relationships have problems, just simply that mixed culture relationships can be more problematic and challenging. I have not said that they are all destined to fail, I have just said that from my experiences and what I have seen around me, most do.

"Why? They're trying to save money. What's wrong with that? Never negotiated anything? Especially when later on we have:

Doesn't it make you sick that a foreigner is trying to get local prices?"
This couple I am speaking about were not trying to save money. I have a good experience about the classes of Egypt, who are decent and who are not. This "boy" was at least 30 years younger, from a very rural village, his English was extremely poor and he actually openly said much more than he wanted commission. He openly said he did not love her, was only with her for money and he wanted our help in getting it. I don't think anybody was misunderstood (and in case anyone is wondering we did not continue to deal with these clients, this behaviour is not something we encourage). And about a foreigner trying to get local prices, I do not see anything wrong with this when the foreigner is being paid a local salary.

What am I doing living in a foreign land?? Living my life, enjoying my life, doing what I enjoy in a place I enjoy being.

:focus:
I am not discouraging people getting involved with Egyptian men. They can do what they want to do, it's not my business to interfere and their outcome will not affect me in the slightest. I was offering insight on foreign women-Egyptian men relationships (or even muslim/non-muslim relationships) in a vain attempt to help them to know what they could expect. This thread can be used for people to just chat about the problems they are having to draw on others experiences of what they did to solve it - or even the successes they are having in their relationship to share with others in the hope we can all have long happy successful relationships.
 

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Starchief!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Oh my goodness, did you not read Sam's message properly????? Apologies but your message shows a certain amount of ignorance.

Of course men should not be asking (behind their wife's back, or in front of it as the case may be) for commission!!!!!!! This is appalling and Sam is quite right to find it offensive.

Also, foreigners working in Egypt, on local salaries, cannot surely afford to pay the over inflated prices that guest foreigners pay... live local, pay local.

As for the other stuff, I cannot even be bothered!
 

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"(or Orphi married husband)" Please tell me that you do NOT mean the kinda secret marriage that Egyptian Muslim teens go for just to make having a sexual relationship becomes "Halal" or whatever??!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

As for Mr. starchief ???? I assume you're a guy since you said you married an Egyptian lady cause lesbians' marriages aren't allowed in here????? Mr!!! your case is totally different!!!! apparently you ended up with a lady coming from a well educated family, cause unless they're educated or at least open minded family??? they wouldn't let their daughter marry a foreigner!! trust me!!! But the case that Sam is talking about in here??? is a LOW LIFE Egyptian guy that just wanna rob a non Egyptian lady!!! and dude!!! trust me, it happens, a lot!!!!! You can go Sharm or Hurgada and you'll see some of those "guys" who moved to those cities from all over Egypt, not to work in a company or a hotel, but they have a full time job as male prostitutes!!! it is their full time job to fool non Egyptian ladies going there just for a holiday!!! and if one of them thought he can fool her for more than one night?? trust me, he won't hesitate!!!

And Mr. starchief ????? Please! notice that not because expats chose to live in here means they have to pay extra money for whatever they're gonna buy just cause they're not bloody locals!!! You're from Scotland I can see, is it how it's going with non Scotch living in there???? Don't forget that those "expats" are LIVING IN HERE FULL TIME! not just here for a holiday!!!!

As for the suggestion for learning the native language ?? I personally agree that it would be helpful to learn Arabic or whatever native language for living purpose or marriage (though I personally believe that Arabic is 90% swears and none sense and 10% crap, specially the Egyptian slang!!!) BUT, still, don't think this is the only thing that would make anyone safe from "people" like those low lives!!! You guys need to have the minimum human doubt!!! simply cause when it comes to "love"??? it's always obvious if someone's really in love or just making it up!!!!!

Hope none of you think I'm being rude or intruding on your stuff, but it's really annoying me how some people think they can fool others just like that!

Good luck to everyone living in here.
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Hi,

Thank you everybody for comments.


Without wanting to dwell too much on the negatives, I have now heard the new low. My friend a few days ago found themselves alone on a microbus heading home, the bus driver took advantage of the situation putting his hand on their leg and offering to take them out into the desert for "you know what". After refusal he then demanded 50LE for the short journey, and being rather afraid at this point my friend obliged and left the bus. Okay, terrible situation but not unheard of, so what makes this a new low - my friend is a thirty-something MALE.

ANYWAY.
Given that Islamic law forbids a Muslim women to marry anyone but a Muslim man, I can only assume that starchief is muslim, or his wife is not. In either case he could not have faced what I consider the most difficult challenges people in these mixed relationships face, the religious difference.

This is what I really want people to understand if they do not. For any women or girls about to enter into a new relationship where they are not muslim and their guy is, I want them to understand that even if their guy seems like a liberal Muslim now (not strictly following Islamic rules) if he really believes his religion the fact that his wife is not will one day bother him. And if he really believes and he really doesn't care about his wife's religious views then he probably doesn't love you and is probably planning to leave you for Muslim wife when he gets what he needs (if he doesn't already have one, which I have also seen happen).

Again I am generalising a lot here, and I'm sure there are cases where the relationship did work out, but I have seen the same scenario all too often. Husband tries to change wife, wife doesn't agree, in these cases where the husband actually did love the wife and he does this it can leave both heart broken - this is often and unfortunately most common after they have a child together, as of course the child should be automatically Muslim, but a liberal mother often insists the child be allowed to choose which religion they want to follow, if any, and eventually splits to give the child what they consider the better or more liberal future. In the preferred cases the husband calls the split before the child is conceived in order to protect his unborn child from the potential sins the non-muslim mother will surely encourage. In any case, if it is really love then unless the mother is really acceptant of all her husbands conditions it will normally come to an end, after all there are not many if any Muslim men who will accept their child to be non-Muslim.

If your partner truly believes in his faith, but does not follow it at all, and does not even insist that you try to learn about the religion and attempt to embrace it, you really need to be questioning his behaviour. If he has no problem in cheating God (which he truly believes he will be heavily punished for) then he would have no problem in cheating you.

Anyway, if I can save just one broken heart or one child from living in a broken family I will be happy.
 

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Starchief!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Enough with the exclamation marks please.

I read this thread. Not a different thread. This thread. It's a new thread. If you start a new thread, then it's good web manners to either post a link to the posts you're talking about, or make a brief summary. Otherwise you're starting a new thread with a completely racist statement, in the hope (that turned out not to be true) that everyone who reads it has followed a different (but unlinked to) conversation on a completely different thread. I, along with others I'm sure, don't read everything posted. The post here says:
"The problem, unfortunately, is not only the Egyptian men. Yes they are low and dirty and creepy and and and"
There's no 'go and read this completely different thread (hyperlink here) where it says that actually that statement isn't what's meant but we're referring to some Egyptian men that we have encountered but we appreciate there's both good and bad'.

Again with DeadGuy saying:
But the case that Sam is talking about in here
What case? The opening statement of this thread doesn't mention anything on this. It depends on someone having followed from an unlinked thread. You're Egyptian, DeadGuy. If I started a thread from new, saying Egyptian men are scum, wouldn't you find this offensive? Not 'some Egyptian men, such as those who try to seduce foreign women for money' but a blanket statement on Egyptian men. That's what's happened here.

In the case of commission, which changes absolutely with:
"He openly said he did not love her, was only with her for money and he wanted our help in getting it."
There is no reference to anything like that in the original post, so why would I assume such a thing.

(behind their wife's back, or in front of it as the case may be)
As far as you know...I quite often play dumb behind my wife's back to get local prices. I often let her deal with business, so as not to get ripped off. And if we were buying a house and knew this was a ruse, I'd let my wife go for it. You can say, in this case you know different, but that's not in the original post or linked to any other post.

p.s Starchief.... no one knows exactly what their brother in law/child/ husband/wife is doing when they are not with them,
You're right. My wife could be an adult video superstar and my mother in a lesbian relationship with my sister but you do get to know people close to you and to make valued judgements. I did know someone that was overtly sexist and cut off contact with them. Because I knew them. And I could make a judgement on their character.

Go back and read the OP as if you had never read the other thread. Don't you find the meaning changes completely?
 

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The topic being previously discussed was specifically the fraudulent Egyptian men who led women to believe they loved them and then married them for the sole purpose of their own benefit (money, visa etc). It was not about Egyptian men as a whole.
Just to add, something like this at the start of the thread, completely changes the meaning and my reply would have been completely different.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
At the suggestion of MS after sticky becoming a little off topic - I am starting a new topic
I think this makes it very clear that the old thread was in the sticky, and that it went off topic, and that a new topic was to be started (therefore not needing to summarize old topic which was closed for a reason).
 

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"You're Egyptian, DeadGuy. If I started a thread from new, saying Egyptian men are scum, wouldn't you find this offensive? Not 'some Egyptian men, such as those who try to seduce foreign women for money' but a blanket statement on Egyptian men. That's what's happened here."

You do have a point, but to be honest??? if any Egyptian male would take that an offensive comment??? then he should be aware of the reason why most foreign people think this way about Egyptian men, and for me??? seeing those low lives doing their best to rob any non Egyptian -women or men- offends me more than anyone saying that Egyptian guys are scums!!!

I do not take it in the offending way, simply cause I am aware of where all these comments coming from, people don't judge other people like that! But in your case (being a foreigner I mean) the minute you step out of the plane at the airport you're someone's target!!! and that offends me the most, cause in some situations where I saw foreigners getting themselves close enough to get robbed I had the "no thanks, don't need your help" attitude when I tried to warn them, and to be honest with you?? in this case I just back off, I just watch them getting robbed and shut my mouth, cause there's nothing else that I can do about it besides warning the "victims" themselves that would stop them from getting robbed (even the local police crap, they'd be happy to split the money with the con, trust me!!! they know cons by their first names, and they do get money from them in most cases!!!!) BUT though I was treated just like any of those jerks would be treated???? I do NOT take it as an offense cause I do understand why they said that!!!

In this case? there's an action happening, non Egyptians are being harassed 90% of the time, and as a reaction for it?? they just think most people in here are pain in the a$$!!!! so why should anyone aware of the whole situation be offended??

And you know something else that makes it worse??? all I been talking about was basically cons trying to rob money or material things, probably a taxi fee, a cell phone for a low price, a handy cam, a laptop, etc. BUT when they get low enough to go for emotions and fooling someone telling them they're in "love" with them when they're NOT???? no matter what their reasons to use that tone?? this is LOW and it can't be justified for whatever reason!

And Mr. starchief ? There is an old thing that all Egyptians know that says " elly ala raso batha yhasses aleha" and I'm not sure how I put it in English, but in brief it means that no one would be offended except for the guilty ones!

Again people, good luck in here, and I am really sorry about what you have to go through with some of the people in here! that's all I can say.
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
DeadGuy,

Hi. Firstly thank you for actually contributing to the forum in both a social and constructive way. I just hope you are not playing Devil's Advocate.

I really hope you don't mind, but I've got some questions I am burning to ask. What do you do for work, where in Egypt are you currently based, and where in Egypt do you come from originally? If you prefer not to answer such things publicly that's understandable, but just wondering.

Sam
 

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DeadGuy,

Hi. Firstly thank you for actually contributing to the forum in both a social and constructive way. I just hope you are not playing Devil's Advocate.

I really hope you don't mind, but I've got some questions I am burning to ask. What do you do for work, where in Egypt are you currently based, and where in Egypt do you come from originally? If you prefer not to answer such things publicly that's understandable, but just wondering.

Sam
I'm not anyone's advocate, don't worry, I just know how it is to be someone's target cause I'm a Christian, and believe it or not, but Christians in here are targets, but not only for their money, but for their own lives as well!!!!!!

As for your questions, I do prefer not to answer publicly but not cause I'm the weirdo that wanna hide personal info, but cause it could get me arrested, lets just say that the national security guys in here don't like my comments on news websites and my opinions concerning what's happening in Egypt that much, so I don't wanna let them know where exactly I am!! But I can tell you that I do not live in a place where you can see foreigners on a daily basis, but I do travel to Cairo a lot since it's almost the only place that I can look for a job, and I did work in Hurgada for some time before I got fired cause I didn't agree with my boss about having 2 menus with 2 different prices for the same products! one for locals and the tax people to see and the other for people like yourself just to suck more money out of you!!

As for my job??? Welcome to Egypt! I'm a damn jobless so far!

I can stop leaving comments if anyone having concerns that I might be looking for something else besides giving my opinion and hoping to be helping someone, I won't be having a problem with that if anyone thought I'm intruding on your community in here, you just cancel my account and I'll know that I'm banned in here!

Good luck to all of you in here.
 

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Hi,

Thank you everybody for comments.


Without wanting to dwell too much on the negatives, I have now heard the new low. My friend a few days ago found themselves alone on a microbus heading home, the bus driver took advantage of the situation putting his hand on their leg and offering to take them out into the desert for "you know what". After refusal he then demanded 50LE for the short journey, and being rather afraid at this point my friend obliged and left the bus. Okay, terrible situation but not unheard of, so what makes this a new low - my friend is a thirty-something MALE.

ANYWAY.
Given that Islamic law forbids a Muslim women to marry anyone but a Muslim man, I can only assume that starchief is muslim, or his wife is not. In either case he could not have faced what I consider the most difficult challenges people in these mixed relationships face, the religious difference.

This is what I really want people to understand if they do not. For any women or girls about to enter into a new relationship where they are not muslim and their guy is, I want them to understand that even if their guy seems like a liberal Muslim now (not strictly following Islamic rules) if he really believes his religion the fact that his wife is not will one day bother him. And if he really believes and he really doesn't care about his wife's religious views then he probably doesn't love you and is probably planning to leave you for Muslim wife when he gets what he needs (if he doesn't already have one, which I have also seen happen).

Again I am generalising a lot here, and I'm sure there are cases where the relationship did work out, but I have seen the same scenario all too often. Husband tries to change wife, wife doesn't agree, in these cases where the husband actually did love the wife and he does this it can leave both heart broken - this is often and unfortunately most common after they have a child together, as of course the child should be automatically Muslim, but a liberal mother often insists the child be allowed to choose which religion they want to follow, if any, and eventually splits to give the child what they consider the better or more liberal future. In the preferred cases the husband calls the split before the child is conceived in order to protect his unborn child from the potential sins the non-muslim mother will surely encourage. In any case, if it is really love then unless the mother is really acceptant of all her husbands conditions it will normally come to an end, after all there are not many if any Muslim men who will accept their child to be non-Muslim.

If your partner truly believes in his faith, but does not follow it at all, and does not even insist that you try to learn about the religion and attempt to embrace it, you really need to be questioning his behaviour. If he has no problem in cheating God (which he truly believes he will be heavily punished for) then he would have no problem in cheating you.

Anyway, if I can save just one broken heart or one child from living in a broken family I will be happy.
Sam

I have always enjoyed your threads as I find your insight on life in Sharm interesting.

I read this thread and having read the previous thread. I understood the context in which your comments were made although I have to admit I found some of the generalisations in the thread and in the previous thread uncomfortable.

Whilst I didn't agree with everything Starchief had to say (because I understood the context of most of your remarks), I understand why he considered that people making sweeping statements about Egyptian men could be racist. Ultimately, it is no better than if people hold stereotypes about Western women or any particular race.

I did find your comments offensive. I am mixed race and both parents had different religions. They had a happy marriage. I have always had mixed race friends and grown up surrounded by people with mixed backgrounds. I don't recognise the view of mixed marriages that you portray. I have observed a higher rate of divorce in Egyptian mixed marriages than in other communities but I have no idea whether this observation is borne out by statistical data. Some of the comments you make about "cheating God", I simply do not agree with you but do not see the point of a religious debate.

I would not ever wish to idealise life in Egypt or minimise the religious and cultural difficulties encountered in mixed marriages. However I would also not wish to stereotype or generalise about people of a particular race or religion
 

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Well, now you people are taking it to the religion thing, which is considered a very complicated and sensitive topic for Arabs in general, specifically Muslims, but let me put it this way, for 90% of Egyptians??? they fear other people more than they fear God or Allah or whatever you wanna call it, for example? you find a Muslim standing against marrying a none Muslim when other people will know about the marriage, while the same person finds it "ok" to be sleeping with anyone even a Jew as long as other people won't find out! (I got nothing against Jews, it's just that I wanted to show that some people can sleep with someone that believes in a religion that they openly say they hate the most as long as no one else can see them doing it ); You can also see a Christian hotel owner that gets himself completely drunk each and every single night and charges foreign guests extra money for everything he got in his hotel, but he makes sure he goes to church every Sunday morning and makes sure that everyone knows where he's going!! and I could see that myself while working in Hurgada! and it disgusted me more than anything else!

As for the mixed marriages coming from Beatle's view?? allow me to put it this way : I could see that you're originally from UK, means that whatever "mix" that you're talking about was in UK, but trust me, things in here are completely different, specially when it comes to a religion mix not just race,
 

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As for the mixed marriages coming from Beatle's view?? allow me to put it this way : I could see that you're originally from UK, means that whatever "mix" that you're talking about was in UK, but trust me, things in here are completely different, specially when it comes to a religion mix not just race,[/QUOTE]

One half of my mix is English yes but I have lived in Muslim countries (including Egypt) and one of my parents was Muslim so I am aware that a cultural mix can be different from a religious mix. As you have identified, religion is a sensitive topic to touch on
 

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One half of my mix is English yes but I have lived in Muslim countries (including Egypt) and one of my parents was Muslim so I am aware that a cultural mix can be different from a religious mix. As you have identified, religion is a sensitive topic to touch on
Here's the thing, living in a Muslim country is not the same as being a Muslim in a free country, hope you got my point cause that's all I can say in here without getting myself in a trouble.
 

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Here's the thing, living in a Muslim country is not the same as being a Muslim in a free country, hope you got my point cause that's all I can say in here without getting myself in a trouble.
As I said, I have experienced both which is why I understand there is a distinction.
 

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As I said, I have experienced both which is why I understand there is a distinction.
Thanks for understanding then, that doesn't happen a lot, specially when it comes to talks about religions with anyone in here, but thank God you people aren't thinking like Egyptians! :D

Good luck in here.
 

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Here's the thing, living in a Muslim country is not the same as being a Muslim in a free country, hope you got my point cause that's all I can say in here without getting myself in a trouble.
I hope you're not as disappointed if/when you get to live abroad as I fear you might be. There are many places where the colour of your skin will likely make you a target too. And if you act like a foreigner, expect to be ripped off. Law of the jungle I'm afraid.
 
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