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Discussion Starter · #2 ·
Ummm. No, I didn't want to get back to first principals. I thought I had made that clear when I said "Well, that line of argument could just go on and on getting more and more ridiculous". And sure enough, it did. So thanks for that input.

Well, I'll leave to you exercise your perceived sense of self-importance and righteousness over all those employed by the state - civil servants, customs officials, firefighters, police, school teachers, road sweepers, etc. Thank God you are here to put them all in their place and let them know who's in charge. Whatever would the world come to otherwise!

And just one more time, cos I can't resist. "My taxes pay your wages, so therefore I'm your boss". Haha ahhahah hahah.

Ok, I wanted to answer this one on the other post! All those people you've listed above also pay taxes, so I dont think anyone feels they're superior to them or that they're their boss! But evereyone is entitled to have a say it what happens - sadly, the reality is its impossible cos there are too many people with different views and there are IMO too many people who are happy to fleece the system these days (MPs??)!! And of course then theres people like me who dont pay taxes, so I guess I'm no ones boss - apart from on here, where I pretend !!!!

Jo xxx
 

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Ok, I wanted to answer this one on the other post! All those people you've listed above also pay taxes, so I dont think anyone feels they're superior to them or that they're their boss! But evereyone is entitled to have a say it what happens - sadly, the reality is its impossible cos there are too many people with different views and there are IMO too many people who are happy to fleece the system these days (MPs??)!! And of course then theres people like me who dont pay taxes, so I guess I'm no ones boss - apart from on here, where I pretend !!!!

Jo xxx
Jo, I don't agree that they pay taxes. The logic is as follows:
Assume that 2 workers each earn $4 and have to pay 50% tax to the exchequer. The exchequer gets, in total, $4, which it pays over to its employee (CS). The CS also has to pay 50% tax on his earnings so he gives back to the exchequer $2. The exchequer could have given the CS $2 and saved itself the bother of recovering the tax or, the two workers could have paid the CS $2 and given the exchequer $2.
As to your statement 'people like me don'y pay taxes'; I challenge you to add up all the VAT you paid over the last month on your shopping bills, utility bills, etc. I bet you feel extreeeeeemly happy that you are a major contributor to the tax system.:clap2:

Liberty: I wrote "...Generally I have a healthy disrespect for Government officials who can't be civil. I have had to explain to a few of them that it was I and other tax payers who were employing them - so in a sense I was their boss. ..."
I presume that you are OK with them being rude to you. My point is that, since I am paying their wages (in some small %) I would expect them to be polite. The problem now is that they can be offensive to you but under the Law if you dare to raise your voice to them you can be charged with aggressive behaviour. The Civil Servant has become the Uncivil Master!
 

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Jo, I don't agree that they pay taxes. The logic is as follows:
Assume that 2 workers each earn $4 and have to pay 50% tax to the exchequer. The exchequer gets, in total, $4, which it pays over to its employee (CS). The CS also has to pay 50% tax on his earnings so he gives back to the exchequer $2. The exchequer could have given the CS $2 and saved itself the bother of recovering the tax or, the two workers could have paid the CS $2 and given the exchequer $2.
As to your statement 'people like me don'y pay taxes'; I challenge you to add up all the VAT you paid over the last month on your shopping bills, utility bills, etc. I bet you feel extreeeeeemly happy that you are a major contributor to the tax system.:clap2:

Liberty: I wrote "...Generally I have a healthy disrespect for Government officials who can't be civil. I have had to explain to a few of them that it was I and other tax payers who were employing them - so in a sense I was their boss. ..."
I presume that you are OK with them being rude to you. My point is that, since I am paying their wages (in some small %) I would expect them to be polite. The problem now is that they can be offensive to you but under the Law if you dare to raise your voice to them you can be charged with aggressive behaviour. The Civil Servant has become the Uncivil Master!


The major flaw with your logic here of course is that in one breath you say that you don't believe they pay taxes, and in the very next breath you tell Jo that she is a major contributor to the tax system because she pays VAT.......meaning that state employees don't pay VAT on their purchases????? Oh no, wait, of course that money came from their wages which was paid by the taxpayer in the first place.:rolleyes: This has to be the weirdest line of logic I have ever heard.

JBoden, each time you "explain" to anyone employed by the state that you "pay their wages" and that you "are their employer" I have no doubt whatsoever that you are just sticking a rather large label to your forehead and I can guess what it might say. You certainly won't gain any brownie points by it, and if you ever mention that you are "higher up the pecking order" and that they "need to be put in their place" you deserve whatever comes next!

Oh well, maybe next time I get stopped for speeding I'll just remind the police officers that I am their employer and no, they can't give me that fine because I am higher up the pecking order than them. I wonder if that would work.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Oh well, maybe next time I get stopped for speeding I'll just remind the police officers that I am their employer and no, they can't give me that fine because I am higher up the pecking order than them. I wonder if that would work.
I dont think anyone is saying that they're higher in the pecking order or better. We're (as a nation) paying our taxes to provide these services, so we should ALL have a say in how they're run!!!!!!???? That doesnt mean we're above the law, cos we'd all be wouldnt we and then they'd be no point in paying anyone!!

Jo xxx
 

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I dont think anyone is saying that they're higher in the pecking order or better. We're (as a nation) paying our taxes to provide these services, so we should ALL have a say in how they're run!!!!!!???? That doesnt mean we're above the law, cos we'd all be wouldnt we and then they'd be no point in paying anyone!!

Jo xxx
But Jo, the entire reason for my posting is that somebody clearly does think they are higher in the pecking order to those paid by the state, but I disagree.

With comments like "I have had to explain to a few of them that it was I and other tax payers who were employing them - so in a sense I was their boss", and "If these CS's start getting stropy they need to be put in their places, don't you think?" and "they really should be told where their place is in the pecking order.". Sounds to me like JBoden considers himself far superior to anyone who is paid by the state, because he as a taxpayer is their employer (or so he believes).

If I rolled up to the border and immediately came out with a bit of an "attitude" (see quote about "I'll stay as long as I like", instead of just answering the question in a civil manner) you can't complain when they get stroppy back! And the whole "my taxes pay your wages" thing is just a red rag to a bull, isn't it!
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
But Jo, the entire reason for my posting is that somebody clearly does think they are higher in the pecking order to those paid by the state, but I disagree.

With comments like "I have had to explain to a few of them that it was I and other tax payers who were employing them - so in a sense I was their boss", and "If these CS's start getting stropy they need to be put in their places, don't you think?" and "they really should be told where their place is in the pecking order.". Sounds to me like JBoden considers himself far superior to anyone who is paid by the state, because he as a taxpayer is their employer (or so he believes).

If I rolled up to the border and immediately came out with a bit of an "attitude" (see quote about "I'll stay as long as I like", instead of just answering the question in a civil manner) you can't complain when they get stroppy back! And the whole "my taxes pay your wages" thing is just a red rag to a bull, isn't it!
But that is the right attitude and we should expect the services we pay for to be good, maybe it was worded wrongly, but I agree, I pay my taxes (er...actually I dont !!), so I expect good service!!! That right! Otherwise its "I pay my taxes and I'm happy to pay them eventho I'm not getting quality??" and in my opinion thats whats happening nowadays in the UK, no one (a generalisation) has pride in their work and no one seems helpful or pleasant anymore and as tax payers, you're paying for that indifference and apathy - it isnt good enough!

Jo xxx
 

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I've gone through my life resenting all authority figures and sticking two fingers up to the system!

This is because I was heavily influenced by three things back in the 60's....The Prisoner, Easy Rider, and Rebel Without a Cause!

Does that make me a bad guy? In the eyes of the people who'll bend over and take whatever the system decides to administer, in whichever way they deem fit....then yes!

Remind me to tell you about the butch **** at the EuroTunnel checkpoint who thought she was the big "I am". Her deviant ass won't be bullying any more people that's for sure!

However....animals and children love me....and that's all that's important to me!

So I prefer to think of myself as an Anti-Hero! :cool:
 

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But that is the right attitude and we should expect the services we pay for to be good, maybe it was worded wrongly, but I agree, I pay my taxes (er...actually I dont !!), so I expect good service!!! That right! Otherwise its "I pay my taxes and I'm happy to pay them eventho I'm not getting quality??" and in my opinion thats whats happening nowadays in the UK, no one (a generalisation) has pride in their work and no one seems helpful or pleasant anymore and as tax payers, you're paying for that indifference and apathy - it isnt good enough!

Jo xxx
Who has said anything about receiving a bad service? If you genuinely receive a bad service (and in JBoden's example he didn't - he was the one who started the conversation off by being uncivil towards the customs officers) then there are appropriate ways of dealing with it. Coming across as all superior and giving it the big "I am" is nothing but counterproductive.

Just as you might expect to receive a good level of service from a funcionario, I think the funcionaro has an equal right to expect to be treated civilly and with respect by their "customers". But judging by peoples' attitudes here that seems to be too much to ask for.
 

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The major flaw with your logic here of course is that in one breath you say that you don't believe they pay taxes, and in the very next breath you tell Jo that she is a major contributor to the tax system because she pays VAT.......meaning that state employees don't pay VAT on their purchases.

Liberty : You are assuming that I know what Jo does for a living. When she said that she doesn't pay taxes I was assuming that she wasn't in paid employment.

JBoden, each time you "explain" to anyone employed by the state that you "pay their wages" and that you "are their employer" I have no doubt whatsoever that you are just sticking a rather large label to your forehead and I can guess what it might say. You certainly won't gain any brownie points by it, and if you ever mention that you are "higher up the pecking order" and that they "need to be put in their place" you deserve whatever comes next!

Liberty: Thank's for your concern about my welfare. For your sake I'll try not to do it too often, but every now and then I can't resist putting down some stroppy CS (just as long as he looks weaker than me. :boxing: :p:)

Oh well, maybe next time I get stopped for speeding I'll just remind the police officers that I am their employer and no, they can't give me that fine because I am higher up the pecking order than them. I wonder if that would work.

Liberty: Congratulations, that was a really crass statement.:clap2::clap2: We employ CSs to, amongst other things, make the laws for us and to maintain the law. If you break the law you have to pay. It seems from the wording of your sentence that you are a persistent speeding offender.:eek:
 

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Liberty : You are assuming that I know what Jo does for a living. When she said that she doesn't pay taxes I was assuming that she wasn't in paid employment.

Yes, she told us that she is not in paid employment. I was clear on that point and I assumed you were too. Sometimes your thought processes are so erratic that I don't really understand what you are saying!


Liberty: Thank's for your concern about my welfare. For your sake I'll try not to do it too often, but every now and then I can't resist putting down some stroppy CS (just as long as he looks weaker than me. :boxing: :p:)

I wonder if it is you that is putting down the stroppy customs officer, or if it is the customs officer that is putting down the the stroppy "customer"?


Oh well, maybe next time I get stopped for speeding I'll just remind the police officers that I am their employer and no, they can't give me that fine because I am higher up the pecking order than them. I wonder if that would work.

Liberty: Congratulations, that was a really crass statement.:clap2::clap2: We employ CSs to, amongst other things, make the laws for us and to maintain the law. If you break the law you have to pay. It seems from the wording of your sentence that you are a persistent speeding offender.:eek:[/QUOTE]


My comment was tongue in cheek....I was imitating your attitude, not giving an example of mine. I thought that was obvious. I have a clean driving licence and I would never dream of speaking to a police officer in that manner! That is the ENTIRE point of my posts. I believe we should respect government employees and not treat them with disdain. They are not lesser beings.
 

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I believe we should respect government employees and not treat them with disdain. They are not lesser beings.
You are of course entitled to your opinions however wierd they may be. I rather like a variation of Count Bismarck's saying. Relocate all bolshie Civil Servants in the polders of Holland and .....................

open up the *****!

Come the revolution ... pop!, pop!, pop!
 

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Very good. So treating people with respect is weird. Fine.

So yes let's just kill all the civil servants, customs officials (firemen and schoolteachers too) because they are all "stroppy" and their wages come from our taxes. That sounds like a reasonable and rational thing to do.
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
Very good. So treating people with respect is weird. Fine.

So yes let's just kill all the civil servants, customs officials (firemen and schoolteachers too) because they are all "stroppy" and their wages come from our taxes. That sounds like a reasonable and rational thing to do.

Well, the stroppy ones at least!! Thats one thing that bugs me both in the UK and in Spain, rudness!!!! Theres no need for it, whoever pays their damn wages!!!!


Jo xxx
 

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So yes let's just kill all the civil servants, customs officials (firemen and schoolteachers too) because they are all "stroppy" and their wages come from our taxes. That sounds like a reasonable and rational thing to do.

Who said that they are all stroppy? You're getting carried away and that's irrational, but I'm glad that you are a law abiding citizen and don't get caught speeding.
 

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Well, the stroppy ones at least!! Thats one thing that bugs me both in the UK and in Spain, rudness!!!! Theres no need for it, whoever pays their damn wages!!!!


Jo xxx
I always believe that you should treat people as you expect to be treated yourself.

Behaviour is contagious. If you are rude to someone, they are usually rude back. If you are stroppy to someone, they are usually stroppy back. Everyone is so quick to criticize the funcionarios for being stroppy, but I'd bet a lot of money that it was the "customer" who was the first to be rude in many of these cases!!! Just like in JBoden's example when he rolled up to the border control and said "I'll stay here as long as I like" when the customs officer asked him a simple, routine question. He could have answered the question in a civil manner, but chose to be stroppy, and then criticizes when others are stroppy with him!!
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 · (Edited)
I always believe that you should treat people as you expect to be treated yourself.

Behaviour is contagious. If you are rude to someone, they are usually rude back. If you are stroppy to someone, they are usually stroppy back. Everyone is so quick to criticize the funcionarios for being stroppy, but I'd bet a lot of money that it was the "customer" who was the first to be rude in many of these cases!!! Just like in JBoden's example when he rolled up to the border control and said "I'll stay here as long as I like" when the customs officer asked him a simple, routine question. He could have answered the question in a civil manner, but chose to be stroppy, and then criticizes when others are stroppy with him!!
Not sure I agree with that. I always, always go out of my way to be pleasant and charming to everyone. But I dont always get it back, however, I persevere and am actually over pleasant to anyone who's rude - I actually make it my mission to make whoever smile before I'm finished - especially the "charming" ladies on the checkouts in Mercadona!!! Now that takes some hard work to get them to break out into a smile!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You cant fight "stroppy" with "stroppy" it doesnt get you anywhere - ever!!!

Jo xxx
 

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I always believe that you should treat people as you expect to be treated yourself.

Behaviour is contagious. If you are rude to someone, they are usually rude back. If you are stroppy to someone, they are usually stroppy back. Everyone is so quick to criticize the funcionarios for being stroppy, but I'd bet a lot of money that it was the "customer" who was the first to be rude in many of these cases!!! Just like in JBoden's example when he rolled up to the border control and said "I'll stay here as long as I like" when the customs officer asked him a simple, routine question. He could have answered the question in a civil manner, but chose to be stroppy, and then criticizes when others are stroppy with him!!
Strange statement! Have I been rude to you? Yet I feel that you have been abusive towards me. By the way how did you infer that the Customs Officer asked a simple routine question (next you'll be sugesting that he was in fact a warm and wonderfull human being), was it because you a Customs Officer in your previous life or maybe a taxi driver (that's another pet hate of mine:)?. In fact the Customs Officer asked the question in a rude, intimidating way and I don't care if someone before me wound him up (like I've been doing to you, by the way) he doesn't have the right to get his own back against the next person line. As I mentioned earlier, I have been doing the trip 2-3 times a year for the last 19 years and generally I have been asked for my passport first. Had this guy done the same he wouldn't have asked such an inane question.
 
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