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Discussion Starter · #2 ·
Would a British exit destroy Gibraltar ?

Quote:

The withdrawal of Airbus, Nissan, Jaguar Land Rover and other major names from manufacturing in the UK would, follow as naturally as night follows day if there were to be a “British Exit'

For Gibraltar, the disastrous consequences of economic exclusion from our main trading bloc — in our case mostly in financial services — would be compounded by giving Spain a brand new opportunity to lock us out at the border.
It is a weapon Madrid has used before, trying to bully Gibraltar into a sovereignty arrangement that would have us abandon our inalienable status as a self-governing British Overseas Territory and become an unwilling part of Spain.

It is well known that when José Manuel Garcia Margallo, the current Spanish foreign minister, first walked into his office, he asked officials if he could just close the frontier with Gibraltar. Only Gibraltar’s British membership of the EU protected it from such an action. But of course the people of Gibraltar would defeat such an action, whatever the cost. Democracy and self-determination are the only way ahead.


Politico on the consequences for Gibraltar if the UK left the EU
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 · (Edited)
Spanish Police vessels violated Gibraltars waters

Spain is accused of repeatedly violating Gibraltars waters in a number of hot pursuit
incidents, involving her anti-drugs and money laundering squad - the
Servicio de Vigilancia Aduanera (SVA) without notifying the Gibraltarian authorities.

Spanish police are also accused of flying one of their helicopters over the Sandy
Bay beach area of the peninsula.


BBC News - Spain violated Gibraltar's waters
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Shots fired at Gibraltarian pleasure boat last Saturday

Quote:

The government of Gibraltar has reacted furiously to reports of Spanish customs
officials firing shots at a pleasure boat, within the territorial waters of the British
dependency.

It is alleged that four shots were fired at the Gibraltar-registered boat on Saturday,
in what is a third such incident in as many weeks. The Chief Minister of Gibraltar,
Fabian Picardo, said that the incursion by the Spanish authorities represented an
“extremely serious escalation” in tensions between Madrid and the Rock.


Independent - Tensions rise as Spanish Customs fires shots at Pleasure craft in Gib
 

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Just as well we have still got Trident. I suggest its immediate deployment in the Bay of Algeciras. Something firm and resolute like that. Or get Sir Cliff Richard to hold a Peace and Reconciliation Concert on the Rock, Rajoy invited so he can join hands with Picardo and sing 'All You Need Is Love'.;)

(I should be more concerned but both our dogs are a bit off-colour today and I think that is a more pressing matter. This dispute has been festering and occasionally erupting since 1700 and something).
 

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Untold quantities of illegal drugs enter Europe via Gibraltar and the Bay of Algeciras, and these so-called "pleasure boats" are used to bring them over from Morocco. If Gibraltar were to co-operate with Spain to catch them, rather than calling foul every time the Spanish customs officers go after a Gibraltar-registered vessel, we'd all be a lot better off. But no, each side insists on perpetuating this political squabble over who owns which bit of seawater.
 

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Untold quantities of illegal drugs enter Europe via Gibraltar and the Bay of Algeciras, and these so-called "pleasure boats" are used to bring them over from Morocco. If Gibraltar were to co-operate with Spain to catch them, rather than calling foul every time the Spanish customs officers go after a Gibraltar-registered vessel, we'd all be a lot better off. But no, each side insists on perpetuating this political squabble over who owns which bit of seawater.
Spain can't just enter Gibraltar's territorial waters for whatever reason, though. It's more a question of Spain co-operating with Gibraltar, isn't it. There is a huge market in Spain for this contraband...why don't the police deal with the gangs that bring it in and distribute it? Perhaps because so many Spaniards buy these cheap cigarettes and bottles of booze?
Everyone knows about the Berlin Wall. Few know about how Spain cut off Gibraltar completely for over twenty years, dividing families. No wonder Gibraltarians are wary of Spain.
Shooting at fishermen.....
 

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In the 1950s, Franco renewed Spain's claim to sovereignty over Gibraltar and restricted movement between Gibraltar and Spain. Gibraltarians voted overwhelmingly to remain under British sovereignty in the Gibraltar sovereignty referendum, 1967, which led to the passing of the Gibraltar Constitution Order in 1969. In response, Spain completely closed the border with Gibraltar and severed all communication links.[21] The border with Spain was partially reopened in 1982 and fully reopened in 1985 prior to Spain's accession to the European Community.

It was sixteen not twenty years...but that's still a long long time....
 

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In the 1950s, Franco renewed Spain's claim to sovereignty over Gibraltar and restricted movement between Gibraltar and Spain. Gibraltarians voted overwhelmingly to remain under British sovereignty in the Gibraltar sovereignty referendum, 1967, which led to the passing of the Gibraltar Constitution Order in 1969. In response, Spain completely closed the border with Gibraltar and severed all communication links.[21] The border with Spain was partially reopened in 1982 and fully reopened in 1985 prior to Spain's accession to the European Community.

It was sixteen not twenty years...but that's still a long long time....
But Spain's changed a lot in those twenty years and probably Gibraltar has too.
Doesn't Gibraltar want to see less drugs and contraband go through its borders?
Isn't Spain interested in seeing some of Gibraltar's wealth filter through into Spain?
Wouldn't cooperation rather than squabbles be more advantageous to all?
 

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But Spain's changed a lot in those twenty years and probably Gibraltar has too.
Doesn't Gibraltar want to see less drugs and contraband go through its borders?
Isn't Spain interested in seeing some of Gibraltar's wealth filter through into Spain?
Wouldn't cooperation rather than squabbles be more advantageous to all?



Yes, indeed. So perhaps Spain should drop its claim to Gibraltar, respect the wishes of the inhabitants who overwhelmingly expressed a desire to remain British and stop sabre-rattling to cover the inept handling of the economy.
It could also do something about the client networks of these smugglers...no buyers, no sellers.
As for 'Gibraltar's wealth filtering through into Spain'...well, it does, via cheap **** and booze to willing buyers although I suspect the smugglers are mainly Spanish.
It's up to Spain to sort out its own economic future without looking to Gibraltar for assistance .
This sabre-rattling is confined it seems to the PP as it isn't important in PSOE's world view.
A hangover from the Franco era, perhaps?
Self-determination should syurely apply to all peoples not just Aftrican and Asian post-Inperialist states.
 

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The Córdoba agreement signed by UK and Spain when Zapatero, PSOE, was in power was a step forward. At the time Iberia started flights from Gibraltar to Madrid. When the PP took over they broke many terms of the agreement including allowing Gibraltar to take part in any discussions. Can't see things improving unless there is a change of Government.


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cordoba_Agreement,_2006
 

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I find it strange that so many 'progressive' people think that nationalism and self-determination are Good Things...unless it's a case of people wanting to remain British.
I've even seen the word 'imperialism' used in the Gibraltar context....strange when the imperial subjects are happy to remain so.
The claims of the Spanish Right regarding Gibraltar are laughable when you think of Ceuta and Melilla.
Like the Falklands, I wouldn't live in Gibraltar if I were paid £millions to do so but it's clear that the Gibraltarians don't want to be part of Spain and surely their wishes should be respected.
Gibraltar is prosperous, gives jobs to many Spanish people who might otherwise be unemployed....so it gets its wealth from the financial and gaming sectors, which many people find morally objectionable and socially heinous. It's a model of capitalism that works. Maybe that's why some find it objectionable, a bit like Germany, hated by the Left.
But there it is and it's not going to go away. Die-hard Francoists and Spanish nationalists will have to learn to live with it. And as Isobella says, it's not a problem for PSOE who did take positive steps towards co-operation.
 

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If Spain were genuinely interested in stopping tobacco and other drugs being imported vis the bay rather than just harassing and bullying Gibraltar they would concentrate on the port of Algeciras where the vast majority of it happens.
 

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Gibraltar's wealth certainly does benefit the Campo de Gibraltar - to the tune of 800 million Euros per year.
 

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If Spain were genuinely interested in stopping tobacco and other drugs being imported vis the bay rather than just harassing and bullying Gibraltar they would concentrate on the port of Algeciras where the vast majority of it happens.
And has been happening for years, centuries even....Laurie Lee mentions it in connection with Algeciras when he went back to Spain in 1954, 'A Rose for Winter'.
Too many Spaniards would be upset to find their supply of cheap alcohol and tobacco had been cut off.
 

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The Córdoba agreement signed by UK and Spain when Zapatero, PSOE, was in power was a step forward. At the time Iberia started flights from Gibraltar to Madrid. When the PP took over they broke many terms of the agreement including allowing Gibraltar to take part in any discussions. Can't see things improving unless there is a change of Government.


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cordoba_Agreement,_2006
ZP also proposed a joint police and customs action force to tackle the smuggling, but Gibraltar weren't interested.
 

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If Spain were genuinely interested in stopping tobacco and other drugs being imported vis the bay rather than just harassing and bullying Gibraltar they would concentrate on the port of Algeciras where the vast majority of it happens.
Do you honestly think they don't? :rolleyes:

Not just Algeciras, but they are on constant alert all along the Mediterranean and Atlantic coast, with helicopters, patrol boats and frequent road blocks. They are making arrests and seizing contraband all the time. Just google "Cadiz narcotráfico" and you'll see it is constantly in the news. But if smugglers know that Gibraltar waters are a safe haven, where do you think they will head for?
 

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Do you honestly think they don't? :rolleyes:

Not just Algeciras, but they are on constant alert all along the Mediterranean and Atlantic coast, with helicopters, patrol boats and frequent road blocks. They are making arrests and seizing contraband all the time. Just google "Cadiz narcotráfico" and you'll see it is constantly in the news. But if smugglers know that Gibraltar waters are a safe haven, where do you think they will head for?
They are not a 'safe haven' though. As a spokesperson for the Gibraltar Police explained, if the boats leave Gibraltar empty, load up in Morocco, unload in Spain and return empty to Gibraltar, on what evidence can the Gibraltar authorities arrest the smugglers?
And when all is said and done, the Spanish police cannot simply enter Gibraltarian waters without notification and permission.
If smuggling is a problem, it's Spain's problem.
I've just read that Spain has allowed a Russian nuclear sub to refuel at Ceuta...although a member of NATO which has banned member states from such actions.
Provocative behaviour? But then elections are soon to be held and Gibraltar is a constant irritant to the Spanish Right.
And long may it continue to be so:boxing:
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 · (Edited)
I've just read that Spain has allowed a Russian nuclear sub to refuel at Ceuta...although a member of NATO which has banned member states from such actions.
Provocative behaviour? But then elections are soon to be held and Gibraltar is a constant irritant to the Spanish Right.
And long may it continue to be so:boxing:
I see what you mean about the Russian submarine, refueling visit to Cueta.
Is it provocation on the part of Spain ? or some crafty intelligence gathering by
a NATO partner - on what is reputed to be one of the quietest ( upgraded )
diesel class submarines in the world ( NATO name Kilo ) which has been
nicknamed The Black Hole on account of it's stealthy capabilities.


Quote from the Independent:

Andrew Rosindell MP, vice chairman of the All Party Parliamentary Group on
Gibraltar, said: “Spain has consistently ignored the borders of Gibraltar’s
territorial waters, rammed their ships, and even fired shots at boats filled with
tourists. And now, to cap it all off, they are allowing the navy of an
unfriendly power to park their submarine less than 18 miles away.”

The Independent understands the Russian vessel, which departed from
Ceuta on Friday, took on supplies fuel and water to complete its journey
from a northern Russian port to the Black Sea, while its 56-strong crew
was granted shore leave to enjoy the tax haven’s nightlife.

The Russian military said the vessel is en-route to the Russian naval
base at Novorossiysk, the Black Sea port from which it takes its name.
However security experts have warned its “far more likely” to be headed
for a major Russian naval base at Sevastopol, in the annexed
Crimean peninsula.

“It looks terrible for the Spanish, if it’s hosting a submarine that is headed
for occupied territory,” added Mr Coffey. “There will be a huge outcry in
Washington, especially given the hypocrisy of Spanish rules that mean
a US or Nato vessel cannot dock in Spain, if it originates from Gibraltar.
It’s ridiculous, as Spain is essentially saying they would rather have
a Russian ship in one of their ports than a Nato vessel visit Gibraltar.”


Spain accused of provocation - after Russian refueling submarine visit off Gibraltar
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 · (Edited)
The voyage of the Novorossiysk - from the icy depths of the Kola Peninsular to
the Gibraltar Straights


Here's the background on Putin's latest stealth submarine which has caused such
a stir in the corridors of Whitehall last week and left Defense Ministers aghast
at Spain's offer of a Pit Stop in Cueta.





 
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