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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
But don't get your hopes up too much. The French government announced today that 10 year residency permits would be issued to anyone from outside the EU ... who sets up a French company employing at least 50 people, or who undertakes to invest a minimum 10 million euros in France, thereby qualifying as having made a "contribution exceptionnelle economique" to the French economy.

Who said France didn't welcome immigrants ;)
 
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Discussion Starter · #2 ·
<<< Who said France didn't welcome immigrants ;) >>>

That's why I moved here, they have the b4lls to stand up for what is right, they protect their own above others, and they aren't scared of the resulting flak.

(All of which is in sharp contrast to the spineless non-entities that 'govern' (ha!) what is left of the country I willingly abandoned)
 
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Discussion Starter · #3 · (Edited)
Trouble is French politicians of any hue make a lot of noise about policy, then usually fail to follow through as soon as an opposition group gets up in arms about it. Hangover from the Revolution, I read somewhere, a kind of subconscious fear of the power of the people.

Even in the anti-immigration case I just posted in a separate thread - Sarko backed down from the original requirements, agreeing that the would-be immigrants don't actually have to pass the French course (and therefore learn any French), they just have to sit it out until its conclusion, equipped with iPod listening to Radio Istanbul if they feel so inclined, apparently.
 

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There's also something a little sad (or maybe "disappointing" is the word I'm looking for) in France going the US route of "if you have money, you can buy your way in."

I know it's the pragmatic approach these days, but there is something to be said for the French attitude toward money.
Cheers,
Bev
 

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Uhh, this kinda pisses me off.... here I am an immigrant trying to "assiimilate" by coming to France to start a business, pay taxes and live the french way of life and I have to wait 5 years just to be "eligible" to apply for a 10yr card. There is no guarantee that I will be approved for french nationality once I apply.
I have a business but I can't afford to 'embauche" 1 other person let alone 50 people all at once, thanks to the extreme charges associated with hiring personnel. Why can't I be given the same opportunity?

I know that immigration everywhere isn't easy, but sometimes I feel like the people who want to immigrate the right way always have the hardest time... and NEVER get a break such as this...

Sorry,I just need to vent... its cds renewal time at the prefecture:-(
 
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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
<<< . Why can't I be given the same opportunity? >>

Because, if /everyone/ were given the 'same opportunity', France would become the same sort of bland, nothing-to-make-it-special, PC kind of place that everywhere else is hell-bent on becoming.

....and we wouldn't want that, would we, otherwise it wouldn't be worth coming to.
 

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<<< . Why can't I be given the same opportunity? >>

Because, if /everyone/ were given the 'same opportunity', France would become the same sort of bland, nothing-to-make-it-special, PC kind of place that everywhere else is hell-bent on becoming.

....and we wouldn't want that, would we, otherwise it wouldn't be worth coming to.
He never said "everyone".

He was simply saying he would like to start a legitimate business but he's not rich enough to hire 50+ employees, therefore the system unjustly favors the wealthy businessman.
 
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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
<<<therefore the system unjustly favors the wealthy businessman.>>>

All systems do. I don't see the french out in the streets burning sheep to try and change it, so I presume they're more or less as happy as anyone else with it.

This is called 'l-i-f-e', it has nothing to do with 'natural justice', and you either go along with it and enjoy the few short years you have on the planet, or bang your head against a brick wall trying to change it.
 

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<<<therefore the system unjustly favors the wealthy businessman.>>>

All systems do. I don't see the french out in the streets burning sheep to try and change it, so I presume they're more or less as happy as anyone else with it.

This is called 'l-i-f-e', it has nothing to do with 'natural justice', and you either go along with it and enjoy the few short years you have on the planet, or bang your head against a brick wall trying to change it.
wealthy businessmen don't protest.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/30/world/europe/30france.html?_r=1
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/03/20/world/europe/20france.html
France braced for huge street protests over economic crisis | World news | guardian.co.uk
 
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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
So what?

The French like a good street protest, it's what separates them from the herd.

Its so much a part of the national culture the protesting dairy farmers in a convoy in a local town yesterday had a police convoy - to get folk out of their way, not to ensure uk-style 'escorting'.:clap2:

A few days, maybe a few weeks, we'll all be back to the status quo. Maybe a cynical government will make a few minor adjustments dressed up as a 'response to the peepool', to smoothe feathers like, but otherwise, life will go on.

You must like the status quo here - otherwise you'd leave, right?;)
 
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Discussion Starter · #11 · (Edited)
You must like the status quo here - otherwise you'd leave, right?;)
I believe xveruskax has yet to sample the delights of living in France.

As for the"wealthy businessmen don't protest" comment, I'm not sure what point xveruskax is trying to make. Unless it's an implied criticism of a disproportionate distribution of wealth and power, but an evolutionary psychologist (if not an educational one) would know that's an inevitable byproduct of the human condition and its inbuilt inequalities. No amount of regulation will change biology, we can only limit the effect.
 

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One factor you are forgetting here, too, is the French "contempt" for the business owner. The folks who take to the streets are the proletariat - the workers, peasants and solders, not the bosses.

Up until just a few years ago, the laws and the public services were seriously biased in favor of the workers. Employees in a company are protected by a whole range of laws and cotisations, while the business owners and bosses received significantly reduced benefits in return for their cotisations. The big example was that bosses were reimbursed less by the sécu for their medical expenses than workers were. That has been changing so that now most bosses' benefits are pretty much equal with those of the workers - though bosses are still not entitled to unemployment other than through a self-funded scheme.

Until the autoentrepreneur statute came into existence, going into business for yourself or setting up a small business was not considered a particularly brilliant thing to have to do. The bosses and business owners are assumed to be rich, fat cats who exploit the workers - and you can see some of that attitude still on display with recent bossnappings and other incidents.

Sarko seems to be deliberately implementing a strategy of demonstrating that investors and bosses aren't the villains the masses seem to feel they are - and the threshold of creating 50 jobs is in line with that goal. Small one and two person businesses don't do anything toward getting the workers, peasants and soldiers back into employment, especially if the businesses are set up by foreigners since normally they just hire their countrymen or family members (which is precisely what the French do when they set up small businesses).
Cheers,
Bev
 

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The way I see it, it's the "wealthy businessman" that has contributed to France's economic troubles... Is it not the wealthy businessman that decides to move his business out of France to another more profitable location such as Asia or eastern europe... taking thousands of jobs?
There is no real interest in developing small to medium sized businesses here other than the florist, bakery,or resto rapide.... which is why so many of these type businesses are family run.... meaning they can't afford to hire employees, develop or expand their business.

You must like the status quo here - otherwise you'd leave, right?
I don't like the status quo.... that's only good for people who think they can't do better!
 
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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
The way I see it, it's the "wealthy businessman" that has contributed to France's economic troubles... Is it not the wealthy businessman that decides to move his business out of France to another more profitable location such as Asia or eastern europe... taking thousands of jobs?
There is no real interest in developing small to medium sized businesses here other than the florist, bakery,or resto rapide.... which is why so many of these type businesses are family run.... meaning they can't afford to hire employees, develop or expand their business.
The trouble is that in a 'free' global market, those that do not take advantage of better operating conditions when they become an option, can quickly find their businesses under threat, while less scrupulous competitors take advantage and prosper. I don't blame the businessman, if there's any fault to be found it's with the system.

Sarko is supposed to be helping SMEs by lessening the tax burden, red tape etc. He has introduced a few useful measures, but there's a long way to go yet.
 

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The trouble is that in a 'free' global market, those that do not take advantage of better operating conditions when they become an option, can quickly find their businesses under threat, while less scrupulous competitors take advantage and prosper. I don't blame the businessman, if there's any fault to be found it's with the system.

Sarko is supposed to be helping SMEs by lessening the tax burden, red tape etc. He has introduced a few useful measures, but there's a long way to go yet.
This has turned into an interesting conversation.

I agree with you that the fault is likely with the system. But certainly, there has to be a moment of clarity where the businessman makes a deliberate decision to behave in an unscrupulous way in order to make some money. That is not accidental, it is intentional. The system facilitates unscrupulous behavior.
As far as the evolutionary psychology perspective of human social orders, that is another story. You believe no amount of regulation will ever change biology. But it's not biology that needs changing, it's domestic economic policy. The system favors a certain set of business practices. This is why the 50+ employee requirement is unreasonable. It favors already well established individuals who can benefit from further business privileges. Even though family run businesses are a nice idea, after a certain point there are only a certain number of families that can employ their own. What about the rest of the population? A small, non-family run business with 10 employees doesn't stand a chance against a competing business that can employ those 50+ employees because people like Sarko are on their side.

Anyways, the statement "You must like the status quo here - otherwise you'd leave, right?" is based on faulty reasoning. I live in the US, I don't like it but I also just can't throw my clothing into my luggage and leave. If only life were so simple.
 
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Discussion Starter · #16 · (Edited)
This has turned into an interesting conversation.

I agree with you that the fault is likely with the system. But certainly, there has to be a moment of clarity where the businessman makes a deliberate decision to behave in an unscrupulous way in order to make some money. That is not accidental, it is intentional. The system facilitates unscrupulous behavior.
It is a matter of opinion whether it is 'unscrupulous' to make 100 people redundant in France, replacing them with 100 Vietnamese. It really depends on whether you are unemployed and living on the breadline (riceline?) in Hanoi or not, doesn't it.

The system facilitates unscrupulous behavior.
The system also punishes those businessmen that fail to take advantage of more competitively priced resources, with the possibility of financial difficulty leading to redundancies or even failure. That's hardly to the advantage of employees threatened with losing their jobs in France either.

As far as the evolutionary psychology perspective of human social orders, that is another story. You believe no amount of regulation will ever change biology. But it's not biology that needs changing, it's domestic economic policy.
Politicians can only play around with the details, short of a major revolution. It's a firmly entrenched global capitalist system dependent on growth, and even the shocks of the last twelve months or so have barely changed things. Regulate in one domestic economy, and other unregulated economies gain an 'unfair' competitive advantage. Jobs are lost one way or the other in the regulated economy..

The system favors a certain set of business practices. This is why the 50+ employee requirement is unreasonable. It favors already well established individuals who can benefit from further business privileges.
This initative was just to encourage capital investment in France. A threshhold figure of some sort has to be set. Other SMEs are, or should be incentivised via tax concessions, etc. Non-EU immigrants aren't particularly needed to get these up and running, there are plenty of French and EU citizens able and willing to set up in business if employers' taxes and welfare contributions aren't prohibitive.

Even though family run businesses are a nice idea, after a certain point there are only a certain number of families that can employ their own. What about the rest of the population? A small, non-family run business with 10 employees doesn't stand a chance against a competing business that can employ those 50+ employees because people like Sarko are on their side.
He would say he's on the side of the people, capital brings jobs, while excessive regulation and import tariffs stifles free competition and leads to job losses sooner or later.

In the global economic system we have - for better or for worse - he's right. How long such a system is sustainable, dependent as it is on constant growth, is another issue.

Anyways, the statement "You must like the status quo here - otherwise you'd leave, right?" is based on faulty reasoning. I live in the US, I don't like it but I also just can't throw my clothing into my luggage and leave. If only life were so simple.
I think he was assuming you are an expat already based in France, as per your flag...
 

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Politicians can only play around with the details, short of a major revolution. It's a firmly entrenched global capitalist system dependent on growth, and even the shocks of the last twelve months or so have barely changed things. Regulate in one domestic economy, and other unregulated economies gain an 'unfair' competitive advantage. Jobs are lost one way or the other in the regulated economy..
I am no expert, and I'm not pretending to be. Plus I don't have the benefit of being on French soil. But there was a time when there were more options that were of benefit to the French. Again, I don't know the whole history but I was impressed with some of the accomplishment's of the French Commune decades ago, before it was violently crushed.
This initative was just to encourage capital investment in France. A threshhold figure of some sort has to be set. Other SMEs are, or should be incentivised via tax concessions, etc. Non-EU immigrants aren't particularly needed to get these up and running, there are plenty of French and EU citizens able and willing to set up in business if employers' taxes and welfare contributions aren't prohibitive.
I don't know much about this either but I'll pretend I do briefly. As far as the difficulty that non-EU immigrants have, even those of substantial means, in breaking into European countries, especially when business ventures are at stake, it does appear difficult. 50+ employees requires a lot of money, a lot of connections. I truly sympathize with the poster who felt it was unfair.
He would say he's on the side of the people, capital brings jobs, while excessive regulation and import tariffs stifles free competition and leads to job losses sooner or later.
I don't know enough about this to comment.
In the global economic system we have - for better or for worse - he's right. How long such a system is sustainable, dependent as it is on constant growth, is another issue.
This reminds me of the argument made by Marx. Sooner or later, capitalism will collapse in on itself. It is unsustainable. Of course, I don't particularly favor an authoritarian run economic system, either.

I think he was assuming you are an expat already based in France, as per your flag...
Well, provided there is a miracle and I can someday call France my home, I would still oppose the French government's policies I'm sure. I particularly like how the French are more willing to demand change from the government, unlike most American's who are content watching football and eating hot dogs on the 4th of July even though they just got laid off and they are likely going to lose their home in a few months.
 
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