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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
Hi--

I've been living in France for the last 5 years. First 2 years as a language assistant, then a regular university student, and now on a work visa with my current employment (while continuing my studies). But, obviously, I'm always needing a visa every year & I want to start making the move to residency or something that allows me to stay on a visa longer than 12 months, and gives me the right to work. Anyone have any experiences in this?

I've been considering naturalizing, but am not totally comfortable with the idea of giving up USA legal identity.

Thanks for your help!
 

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Are you actually getting a new visa every year, or just a new carte de séjour? Because, if you're on a work visa now, you should be eligible for a longer-term carte de séjour in a couple of years. (I'm not sure the student visa years count.)

Naturalizing is an option, once you've met the residence and assimilation requirements, and you won't have to give up your US nationality. But naturalizing is touchy and not always possible on the first try. Your best source for information on this is Nationalité française - Service-public.fr at least for starters.
Cheers,
Bev
 

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Hi--
I've been considering naturalizing, but am not totally comfortable with the idea of giving up USA legal identity.

Thanks for your help!
just out of curiosity, what is your affinity to having an american identity, especially considering you've lived in france for so long now and appear to want to remain there for a longer time?
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
my affinity to the american nationality is based more on access to family and friends. i plan on remaining in europe for atleast the next 5-10 years, if not longer & for life, but all of my family lives in the USA & i want to make sure that i can have access to the US in the event of them needing me to come back, now with a niece, aging parents, etc.. one never knows, so i would rather be safe than sorry.
 

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Although US does not recognize dual nationality, I do not believe that they will take away your passport if you decide to get French citizenship. So, you can have both nationalities. You will need to use your US passport when traveling to US and French when traveling to France. You will loose any US embassy assistance, if required in an emergency, when in France and possibly in Europe. And if you are just planning to stay for another 5-10 years here, try getting the 10 year titre de sejour - it might be easier.
 

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Although US does not recognize dual nationality, I do not believe that they will take away your passport if you decide to get French citizenship.
Dashenka, Where did you get that information if I may ask? What does "not recognize" mean? Permit? Allow? Acknowledge? The Brilliant Film Director OLIVER STONE has dual citizenship - U.S./French - so how does that work if the US doesn't recognize his? He's US born (NYC, Jewish Father, French Catholic Mother), even joined the military and went to Vietnam - that's pretty hard core American. I do believe he added the French Citizenship during the reign of King George W. and Court Jester Cheney. Please check out paragraph 12 in the article below on the film ALEXANDER - Merci, Le Zoom
 
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Dashenka, Where did you get that information if I may ask? What does "not recognize" mean? Permit? Allow? Acknowledge? The Brilliant Film Director OLIVER STONE has dual citizenship - U.S./French - so how does that work if the US doesn't recognize his?
Indeed, as this Wikipedia article on the US attitude to dual nationality rights makes clear...
 

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Although US does not recognize dual nationality, I do not believe that they will take away your passport if you decide to get French citizenship. So, you can have both nationalities. You will need to use your US passport when traveling to US and French when traveling to France. You will loose any US embassy assistance, if required in an emergency, when in France and possibly in Europe. And if you are just planning to stay for another 5-10 years here, try getting the 10 year titre de sejour - it might be easier.
What Frogblogger said. And while you do need to use your US passport when entering the US, it's not nearly so critical to use your French one when returning to France. (Whichever line is shorter - which usually turns out to be the French and EU nationals line, at least in my experience.)

It is NOT true that you lose US embassy assistance. You can still register at the local US embassy/consulate as a US citizen overseas and, in the event of a coup or other crisis situation, you'll still be entitled to whatever evacuation or other effort is being offered to other US citizens.

The 10 year titre de séjour is called a carte de residente, and is only available after you have renewed your annual carte de séjour a requisite number of times. (Depends on your status - you get it quicker if you're married to a French national. Usually after 5 or so years if you aren't.)
Cheers,
Bev
 

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I am a naturalized US citizen. When I was receiving my citizenship, it was explicitly stated by the officials that US does not recognize dual citizenship. In addition, when I was doing some very quick research on the possibility of getting a French citizenship, I read somewhere on an official website that US can potentially take away the citizenship if you swear allegiance to another country. When I was receiving a US citizenship for my daughter, the notary at the consulate talked us about using the "correct" passport for the country and again noted that if you are in the country of your other non-US nationality you would be treated as a citizen of that country rather than US.
 

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I am a naturalized US citizen. When I was receiving my citizenship, it was explicitly stated by the officials that US does not recognize dual citizenship. In addition, when I was doing some very quick research on the possibility of getting a French citizenship, I read somewhere on an official website that US can potentially take away the citizenship if you swear allegiance to another country. When I was receiving a US citizenship for my daughter, the notary at the consulate talked us about using the "correct" passport for the country and again noted that if you are in the country of your other non-US nationality you would be treated as a citizen of that country rather than US.
This is the way the US does things. There are still laws on the books that say that the US "may" (not "will") take away your US citizenship if you take another nationality under certain specific circumstances. There was, however, a statement from the US Dept. of State in about 1990 saying that they weren't going to bother with this anymore and that, while they don't officially recognize dual nationality, they don't really have anything against it, either.

Periodically, they post something on the government or embassy websites "reminding" people that these laws are still on the books, and a couple of times since 1990 they have passed laws that provide rather nasty penalties if you try to renounce your US nationality for anything assumed to be related to "tax reasons." (Again it's a situation of they "may" invoke the penalties - but this is clearly designed for wealthy individuals looking to get out of their US tax liability.) It's actually getting to be rather difficult to give up your US citizenship, even if you should legitimately want to do so.

The support from the consulate is a funny issue. Basically, it seems to mean that they can't step in and take your side as an American if you get caught violating the laws of any other country where you hold nationality. But they still encourage you to register with the consulate in the country in which you are living - and, in the event of a coup or natural disaster or whatever, they would still treat you like an American when it comes to getting people out of the country. (Last time I knew of them doing this was in Lebanon a few years back. Dual nationals had the choice of which country's evacuation plans to follow.)
Cheers,
Bev
 

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The support from the consulate is a funny issue. Basically, it seems to mean that they can't step in and take your side as an American if you get caught violating the laws of any other country where you hold nationality. But they still encourage you to register with the consulate in the country in which you are living - and, in the event of a coup or natural disaster or whatever, they would still treat you like an American when it comes to getting people out of the country. (Last time I knew of them doing this was in Lebanon a few years back. Dual nationals had the choice of which country's evacuation plans to follow.)
It's a principle under international law that a dual (or multiple) national cannot be afforded the protection of a country against the government of a country of which they are also a citizen. US certainly invoke this rule when a dual US-and-another citizen violates the law in US and doesn't accept approaches from the consular staff of the other country, which are otherwise permitted on a reciprocal basis. I would expect the French to be just as adamant in resisting approaches from US consular staff when dealing with a US-French national within its territory. What may happen in a war or similar situation of a complete breakdown of law and order would be a different matter, like the evacuation of dual US-Vientnamese citizens at the fall of Saigon.
 

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It's a principle under international law that a dual (or multiple) national cannot be afforded the protection of a country against the government of a country of which they are also a citizen. US certainly invoke this rule when a dual US-and-another citizen violates the law in US and doesn't accept approaches from the consular staff of the other country, which are otherwise permitted on a reciprocal basis. I would expect the French to be just as adamant in resisting approaches from US consular staff when dealing with a US-French national within its territory. What may happen in a war or similar situation of a complete breakdown of law and order would be a different matter, like the evacuation of dual US-Vientnamese citizens at the fall of Saigon.
There's also the matter of dual national individuals in a third country. In Lebanon a few years back, it was interesting to see that dual nationals (US-French) basically had their choice for which country should evacuate them. (The French apparently got there first, so the people I knew decided to go with them....)

The French were also pretty good about evacuating their nationals out of New Orleans after Katrina. Since then, I always have the address and phone number of the French consulate with me when I go back to the States to visit.
Cheers,
Bev
 

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There's also the matter of dual national individuals in a third country. In Lebanon a few years back, it was interesting to see that dual nationals (US-French) basically had their choice for which country should evacuate them. (The French apparently got there first, so the people I knew decided to go with them....)

The French were also pretty good about evacuating their nationals out of New Orleans after Katrina. Since then, I always have the address and phone number of the French consulate with me when I go back to the States to visit.
Cheers,
Bev
Of course, in a third country you do have a choice!
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
so i just swung by the prefecture & asked about getting that carte de resident, but none of my years as an assistant language/student count towards it. with my titre de sejour salarie (that started in october), i am now starting to accrue time towards getting one, but 5 years from now! and i'd probably have to stay (god forbid) with the same company in order to ensure a sponsored titre de sejour salarie each year. know any loopholes? i'm hardcore looking in to naturalizing as it seems more likely at this point, that i would obtain THAT before a carte de resident of 10 years.
come this september, it will be a full 5 years that i've been in france, and i have a huge drive to want to work F/T without all of the foreigner documentation crap we have to fill out each time. P/T work and a never-ending student life doesn't cut it for me anymore (i'm 27), i'd like to get working but france won't let me! argh..

or do you know any good websites/search engines related to companies that have no qualms about hiring non-europeans?

thanks!



What Frogblogger said. And while you do need to use your US passport when entering the US, it's not nearly so critical to use your French one when returning to France. (Whichever line is shorter - which usually turns out to be the French and EU nationals line, at least in my experience.)

It is NOT true that you lose US embassy assistance. You can still register at the local US embassy/consulate as a US citizen overseas and, in the event of a coup or other crisis situation, you'll still be entitled to whatever evacuation or other effort is being offered to other US citizens.

The 10 year titre de séjour is called a carte de residente, and is only available after you have renewed your annual carte de séjour a requisite number of times. (Depends on your status - you get it quicker if you're married to a French national. Usually after 5 or so years if you aren't.)
Cheers,
Bev
 

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Hi--

I've been living in France for the last 5 years. First 2 years as a language assistant, then a regular university student, and now on a work visa with my current employment (while continuing my studies). But, obviously, I'm always needing a visa every year & I want to start making the move to residency or something that allows me to stay on a visa longer than 12 months, and gives me the right to work. Anyone have any experiences in this?

I've been considering naturalizing, but am not totally comfortable with the idea of giving up USA legal identity.

Thanks for your help!
Hi,

I am a dual UK/US citizen. My citizenship is by birth (born in the US - Child of an English father) . I have copied the following from the US State Department site.

Dual Nationality

The concept of dual nationality means that a person is a citizen of two countries at the same time. Each country has its own citizenship laws based on its own policy.Persons may have dual nationality by automatic operation of different laws rather than by choice. For example, a child born in a foreign country to U.S. citizen parents may be both a U.S. citizen and a citizen of the country of birth.

A U.S. citizen may acquire foreign citizenship by marriage, or a person naturalized as a U.S. citizen may not lose the citizenship of the country of birth.U.S. law does not mention dual nationality or require a person to choose one citizenship or another. Also, a person who is automatically granted another citizenship does not risk losing U.S. citizenship. However, a person who acquires a foreign citizenship by applying for it may lose U.S. citizenship. In order to lose U.S. citizenship, the law requires that the person must apply for the foreign citizenship voluntarily, by free choice, and with the intention to give up U.S. citizenship.

Intent can be shown by the person's statements or conduct.The U.S. Government recognizes that dual nationality exists but does not encourage it as a matter of policy because of the problems it may cause. Claims of other countries on dual national U.S. citizens may conflict with U.S. law, and dual nationality may limit U.S. Government efforts to assist citizens abroad. The country where a dual national is located generally has a stronger claim to that person's allegiance.

However, dual nationals owe allegiance to both the United States and the foreign country. They are required to obey the laws of both countries. Either country has the right to enforce its laws, particularly if the person later travels there.Most U.S. citizens, including dual nationals, must use a U.S. passport to enter and leave the United States. Dual nationals may also be required by the foreign country to use its passport to enter and leave that country. Use of the foreign passport does not endanger U.S. citizenship.Most countries permit a person to renounce or otherwise lose citizenship.

Information on losing foreign citizenship can be obtained from the foreign country's embassy and consulates in the United States. Americans can renounce U.S. citizenship in the proper form at U.S. embassies and consulates abroad.



As with anything governmental the information is conflicting. Second paragraph there is a sentence beginning with "However..."

You might want to contact the State Dept before you do this.

My best,

Karin
 

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Karin,
In krasnau's case, s/he is several years away from qualifying to even start the naturalization process in France. (Needs 5 years of residence.) And, despite what it says on the State Department website, the policy of the US State Department over the last 20 years has been to make it increasingly difficult to give up your US nationality for any reason.

If you voluntarily renounce your US nationality, it can only be done in front of a consular officer at a US Consulate or Embassy overseas. There are penalties imposed if renunciation is done "for tax reasons" - and for anyone with a certain level of income, it's always assumed you're doing it "for tax reasons" so they can assess an "expatriation tax" for the next ten years.

The US policy changed in about 1990, but they never made any changes to the law. Every now and then they "remind" us about the laws still being on the books, but they haven't made any moves to take away anyone's US citizenship in a long time. Technically they can also take away your citizenship if you: serve in a foreign army, work for a foreign government, and a few other "crimes" - yet when they find a US citizen working for the Taliban or doing something else nasty, they're real quick to "repatriate" them back to the US of A. Go figure.
Cheers,
Bev
 

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Karin,
In krasnau's case, s/he is several years away from qualifying to even start the naturalization process in France. (Needs 5 years of residence.) And, despite what it says on the State Department website, the policy of the US State Department over the last 20 years has been to make it increasingly difficult to give up your US nationality for any reason.

If you voluntarily renounce your US nationality, it can only be done in front of a consular officer at a US Consulate or Embassy overseas. There are penalties imposed if renunciation is done "for tax reasons" - and for anyone with a certain level of income, it's always assumed you're doing it "for tax reasons" so they can assess an "expatriation tax" for the next ten years.

The US policy changed in about 1990, but they never made any changes to the law. Every now and then they "remind" us about the laws still being on the books, but they haven't made any moves to take away anyone's US citizenship in a long time. Technically they can also take away your citizenship if you: serve in a foreign army, work for a foreign government, and a few other "crimes" - yet when they find a US citizen working for the Taliban or doing something else nasty, they're real quick to "repatriate" them back to the US of A. Go figure.
Cheers,
Bev

Hi Bev,

I understand/agree....

My Mother, who never applied for citizenship in the US, was always worried that I (as a kid) would do something that would anger the US and they would deport her teen aged daughter to the UK.

Thank you Bev..

Karin
 
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A U.S. citizen may acquire foreign citizenship by marriage, or a person naturalized as a U.S. citizen may not lose the citizenship of the country of birth.U.S. law does not mention dual nationality or require a person to choose one citizenship or another. Also, a person who is automatically granted another citizenship does not risk losing U.S. citizenship. However, a person who acquires a foreign citizenship by applying for it may lose U.S. citizenship. In order to lose U.S. citizenship, the law requires that the person must apply for the foreign citizenship voluntarily, by free choice, and with the intention to give up U.S. citizenship.

Intent can be shown by the person's statements or conduct.The U.S. Government recognizes that dual nationality exists but does not encourage it as a matter of policy because of the problems it may cause. Claims of other countries on dual national U.S. citizens may conflict with U.S. law, and dual nationality may limit U.S. Government efforts to assist citizens abroad. The country where a dual national is located generally has a stronger claim to that person's allegiance.

However, dual nationals owe allegiance to both the United States and the foreign country. They are required to obey the laws of both countries. Either country has the right to enforce its laws, particularly if the person later travels there.Most U.S. citizens, including dual nationals, must use a U.S. passport to enter and leave the United States. Dual nationals may also be required by the foreign country to use its passport to enter and leave that country. Use of the foreign passport does not endanger U.S. citizenship.Most countries permit a person to renounce or otherwise lose citizenship.

Information on losing foreign citizenship can be obtained from the foreign country's embassy and consulates in the United States. Americans can renounce U.S. citizenship in the proper form at U.S. embassies and consulates abroad.
As with anything governmental the information is conflicting. Second paragraph there is a sentence beginning with "However..."

You might want to contact the State Dept before you do this.

My best,

Karin
That document seems to represent little threat to the principle of dual nationality, inasfar as it makes any sense (not much).

Obviously if one shows intent to give up US citizenship "through statements or conduct", then one has little interest in maintaining dual national status in the first place.

Typical vague double-talk one comes to expect from government departments, wherever they are located.
 
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