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Discussion Starter · #3 · (Edited)
Smeg you know as well as I do that the reforms to the code du travail have nothing to do with the EU ?
You sure ? That is a question in itself.

France needs to get people back to work as they have an unemployment rate twice that of the UK and Germany. Is the code du travail causing the problem or being a member of the EU and the euro ?

I read somewhere that it was considered that only France and the UK could survive outside of the EU given their stature within the world.

One thing is for sure, these protests and strikes will go on for a very long time. I am not sure Macron will win. If that is the case, we will be back to square one.
 

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The reforms Macron is trying to push through aren't all that different from those made at least 15 years ago in Germany by Schroeder. It was painful at the time - even without the "tradition" of taking to the streets as they do here in France. But 15 years later, Germany seems to be doing rather well for themselves, though they could stand to invest a bit more in fixing up their infrastructure and stop pushing everyone else into "austerity."
Cheers,
Bev
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 · (Edited)
The reforms Macron is trying to push through aren't all that different from those made at least 15 years ago in Germany by Schroeder. It was painful at the time - even without the "tradition" of taking to the streets as they do here in France. But 15 years later, Germany seems to be doing rather well for themselves, though they could stand to invest a bit more in fixing up their infrastructure and stop pushing everyone else into "austerity."
Cheers,
Bev

In terms of the SNCF employment contract reforms (which is the biggest in contention) Chirac tried and failed. Can you see Macron doing any better ?

In terms of Germany, they would not stand a chance outside of the EU. France and the UK would survive.
 

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In terms of the SNCF employment contract reforms (which is the biggest in contention) Chirac tried and failed. Can you see Macron doing any better ?

In terms of Germany, they would not stand a chance outside of the EU. France and the UK would survive.
If he doesn't try at all, then the contracts will never change.

And honestly, I think Germany would do better on their own than France ever would or could.

But obviously we differ in our opinions on this...
Cheers,
Bev
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
And honestly, I think Germany would do better on their own than France ever would or could.


Cheers,
Bev
Germany make stuff and to be fair their standards are slipping. Take their cars for example. I will never buy a German car again. Would anyone ?

On a world stage, they have no influence. They are only important within the EU. France and the UK are more loved and have much more influence globally.
 

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Germany make stuff and to be fair their standards are slipping. Take their cars for example. I will never buy a German car again. Would anyone ?

On a world stage, they have no influence. They are only important within the EU. France and the UK are more loved and have much more influence globally.
I did... E320 still the best car I have had.

In the Henry Jackson Society Survey, after the US and UK, France is the third most influential country in the world and Germany I think was either four or five.

Germany runs the EU and has some very odd ideas lately. On a personal level, I did business with almost every country (not France) and the Germans were the most honest, professional and efficient to do business with.

The French are a bit similar to the Irish they are survivors. They have endured great hardship but always work their way out of it.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
I did... E320 still the best car I have had.
OH just got a BMW company car. We both agree it is the worst car we have ever had. I apologise whole heartedly to French manufacturers that I criticised in another thread. Your cars are far better.


Furthermore, with the VW emissions scandal, they destroyed my beloved Yeti with their obligatory update. My car is now worthless. (google it for more info).

Bye bye German cars.
 

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You sure ? That is a question in itself.

France needs to get people back to work as they have an unemployment rate twice that of the UK and Germany. Is the code du travail causing the problem or being a member of the EU and the euro ?

I read somewhere that it was considered that only France and the UK could survive outside of the EU given their stature within the world.

One thing is for sure, these protests and strikes will go on for a very long time. I am not sure Macron will win. If that is the case, we will be back to square one.
Yes, France needs to get more people back to work. Macron's approach is, according to him and LREM, all about being competitive. Well, if you follow Macron's argument to its logical conclusion, French workers should have the equal lowest pay and conditions in the world (not just the EU). Meantime LREM keeps throwing in our faces supposedly improved employment statistics in Germany, the UK and Spain - apparently it makes no difference to the govt that the so-called increased employment involves extremely precarious jobs (0-hour contracts in the UK are a good example). Comparing unemployment rates across France, the UK and Germany is pretty pointless, because the statistics are not collected or reported in the same way (in fact, France reports unemployment statistics much more broadly, and arguably truthfully and would probably include lots of 'employed' people in Gremany, the UK and Spain in one of their 'unemployment' categories).

I agree, the current strikes and protests are likely to go on for a long time. Can't see Macron backing down in anyway - it's not his style and people who disagree with him are written off as 'fainéants' etc.

I don't think being a member of the EU or the Eurozone is the cause of the problem (despite the one-size-fits-all debt to GDP demands from the EU - actually the IMF has similar standards re debt to GDP).

I haven't seen the kind of neo-liberal approach promoted by Macron (which is in no way new) work elsewhere and have no idea why Macron thinks he can make it work.

But, hey, 'democracy' has given us this government, so France will have to like it or lump it - or continue the strikes and protests in the hope that they will achieve something.
 

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The reforms Macron is trying to push through aren't all that different from those made at least 15 years ago in Germany by Schroeder. It was painful at the time - even without the "tradition" of taking to the streets as they do here in France. But 15 years later, Germany seems to be doing rather well for themselves, though they could stand to invest a bit more in fixing up their infrastructure and stop pushing everyone else into "austerity."
Cheers,
Bev
Lots of people in Germany, though, are really poorly paid and living in poverty. And don't forget, they've only had a minimum wage for 3 years.

I suspect the Germans have everyone well and truly conned :D
 

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OH just got a BMW company car. We both agree it is the worst car we have ever had. I apologise whole heartedly to French manufacturers that I criticised in another thread. Your cars are far better.


Furthermore, with the VW emissions scandal, they destroyed my beloved Yeti with their obligatory update. My car is now worthless. (google it for more info).

Bye bye German cars.
By the looks of it is bye, bye diesel cars. Not too keen on modern cars they drive themselves. I like old American cars and rice racers!
 

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Lots of people in Germany, though, are really poorly paid and living in poverty. And don't forget, they've only had a minimum wage for 3 years.

I suspect the Germans have everyone well and truly conned :D
I lived and worked in Germany back before all the big changes that Schroeder made, and honestly the changes are similar to some of the things Macron is trying to do - though admittedly he's starting from a very different system than that of Germany. I've also been on unemployment in both Germany and France and can compare the two different systems a bit.

Yes, the changes start out somewhat painful - and the benefits won't be immediately noticeable. However the labor system here in France has got to change and we all know how much the French "love" change. I'm all for giving the reforms a chance, since nothing else any prior government has tried (or "suggested") seems to have done anything to ameliorate the situation.
Cheers,
Bev
 

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I lived and worked in Germany back before all the big changes that Schroeder made, and honestly the changes are similar to some of the things Macron is trying to do - though admittedly he's starting from a very different system than that of Germany. I've also been on unemployment in both Germany and France and can compare the two different systems a bit.

Yes, the changes start out somewhat painful - and the benefits won't be immediately noticeable. However the labor system here in France has got to change and we all know how much the French "love" change. I'm all for giving the reforms a chance, since nothing else any prior government has tried (or "suggested") seems to have done anything to ameliorate the situation.
Cheers,
Bev
Cannot agree with you. My German friends' view of the changes in Germany and their impact are also completely different to yours - they live in the US, still have family and friends in Germany and generally do a trip back every year, so they might just be a little more up to date on things in Germany than you are.

What I do think is that the French system is totally alien to people from the US who do tend to hang onto some of the US belief systems - so I certainly don't criticise you for having your view.

I look at what's been going on in Australia for the last 15 years or so and I really worry about how things could turn out in France. Bear in mind that Australia does have labour laws, unions etc - unfortunately they also have a Coalition govt that is driving them ever faster into debt.

I would love someone to tell me just how Macron is going to find funding in 12 months time given his program (and that's without taking into account emergencies like Hurricane Irma). The most widely accepted view in France is that, at least initially most businesses will use the new laws to lay people off and that there will only be a perceptible increase in employment 18 months to 2 years from now. So, where is the revenue going to come from? How much austerity will be required 12 months from now, and who will actually be paying the price?
 

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OK, so we agree to disagree. I'm not exactly cut off from friends in Germany, so I do have some notion of how things are going back there. (Plus, I was the "HR manager" in addition to my plant controller duties - in part because my Austrian boss didn't think the HR function actually required much at the time.) Plus, we've had our own business here in France these last 20 years, so I have a bit of perspective from the employer side, too.

I honestly don't understand why the Americans aren't up in arms - well, pitchforks and torches at least (never did like the whole gun culture over there). The work culture there is outrageous, but no one seems to mind too much. But salaries in Germany are generally higher than in France in any event. And I think there is something to be said for the idea of splitting the "cotisations" (social insurances) 50 -50 rather than the unrealistic apportionment they do here in France. And I still have a copy here somewhere of the German labor code, which is maybe a couple hundred pages vs. the 2000 or so for the French code.
Cheers,
Bev
 

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The French code wouldn't be so long if they actually 're-wrote' it, which is to say if they just updated it properly :D Macron is about to make it a wee bit longer!

You know, I used to work with industrial awards, worked in HR and IR for many years (for employers), and also worked for what was at the time the largest employer organisation in Australia. I've also worked in the public sector, have been a union member and a delegate. Oh, and yes, I've even had my own business. A long and varied working life that has not left me without perspective!

The employer share of the cotisations is for all intents and purposes part of the employee's salary - you can think of it as foregone salary, and tax-wise the arrangement whereby the employer pays that portion direct to the State is beneficial to the employer (there are other examples of such arrangements around the world). IMHO it's one of the reasons salaries in France appear to be so low.

What Macron is proposing, though, is that part of the social contributions be taken up by the general taxation system (including the CSG). Now that's a huge risk, as the funds are likely to end up in general revenue and may not be applied to the social security system, at least not all of the funds. The risk is then that the social security system will end up further in debt, with the likelihood that the only way to address it will be to reduce services.
 

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MediaPart have a done a series of well-research articles disproving the assertion that reforms in German labor law around 2004/2005 led to increased growth and decreased unemployment.

Many economists are beginning to reject those structural reforms as providing impetus to the anomalous growth Germany has benefited from in the past ten years.
 

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I read somewhere that it was considered that only France and the UK could survive outside of the EU given their stature within the world.
I read somewhere that the Earth is flat, and somewhere else that the Moon is made of green cheese.
There's a lot of BS out there and you would be well advised to stop spreading it around.
 
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