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Discussion Starter · #81 · (Edited)
Hello – I’m the original OP – Thread creep again… Bored now! No government is going to change an atmosphere in a village, town, country, it’s up to the population.
We all need to think positive, be positive and life will get better. It’s up to the general population to change things - a cross on a bit of paper doesn’t do it.
And you old lefties – Maggie Thatcher was a heroine to my generation – first female prime minister and she had balls! I’d vote for her now – too young to do it originally!

I know I'm going to get stick for this!

Jo
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Hello – I’m the original OP – Thread creep again… Bored now! No government is going to change an atmosphere in a village, town, country, it’s up to the population.
We all need to think positive, be positive and life will get better. It’s up to the general population to change things - a cross on a bit of paper doesn’t do it.
And you old lefties – Maggie Thatcher was a heroine to my generation – first female prime minister and she had balls! I’d vote for her now – too young to do it originally!

I know I'm going to stick for this!

Jo
x
Not from me - hey, theres a http://www.expatforum.com/expats/la-tasca/121594-margaret-thatcher.html thread to discuss the lovely lady!!!

Jo xxx
 

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Discussion Starter · #83 ·
Not from me - hey, theres a http://www.expatforum.com/expats/la-tasca/121594-margaret-thatcher.html thread to discuss the lovely lady!!!

Jo xxx
We're both jojo's, probably like mine, your parents got on their bikes, bought their council houses and now have a final salary pension. They never moaned, they worked hard and got on with - that's what we should be doing now. Nobody gives you anything for free!
Going back to my original post, stop whinging start promoting and be positive. The Spanish Costas don't have a recession, come here, bring your money, and live a great life!


Jo
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We're both jojo's, probably like mine, your parents got on their bikes, bought their council houses and now have a final salary pension. They never moaned, they worked hard and got on with - that's what we should be doing now. Nobody gives you anything for free!
Going back to my original post, stop whinging start promoting and be positive. The Spanish Costas don't have a recession, come here, bring your money, and live a great life!


Jo
x
I disagree, the work attitude and positive thinking is only good when you have the basic tools to work with. One of the many problems in Spain is that too many people/expats have gone over there and worked "on the black" and relied on the diminishing tourist trade - outside forces have reduced the tourists there for some years now. Life progresses in fads, and the package holiday of two weeks on the costas no longer appeals to the masses - even before the recession.

My father came from a mining family and moved away as soon as he could to become a plasterer - which he did well - thru hard work, he found a niche of becoming a master plasterer and renovating some famous stately homes and castles. He swore that his children would NEVER go down the pits, as did the rest of his family. Thankfully the pits closed - they were no longer needed - just like lots of tourist fed industries in Spain - what are you left with to "work hard" on???? A diminishing tourist industry (and related industries) and nothing to fill its gap - that bit maybe is the Spanish governments fault. Being positive isnt the answer when there isnt anything. Maybe the government need to introduce something that will rejuvenate the country, but it has to come from the top and their investment powers

Jo xxx
 

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Actually my husbands industry in the UK is a bit of a dying industry too - so what he's done and is constantly doing is diversifying and moving to where the latest technology is and is doing well - it means that you have to be prepared to change direction "on a sixpence " and quickly, which he does - luckily!!!! But not everyone can do this or has the ability to suddenly change direction - especially when no one knows what direction that is!

Jo xxx
 

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Discussion Starter · #86 ·
Jojo - Governments don’t create industries, new business, new creations – individuals do this with goals, invention and dreams. Governments just hang on their coat tails. Unfortunately in the last 10 years governments have hung on bankers coat tails – they chose the wrongens. What we need is everyone to get off their arses, stop whinging and move forward with invention, development and perseverance, not only in Spain, but across the world.
Everyone says government needs to invest in this and that, but name one major inventor or entrepreneur who needed this government assistance. If you have the ideas and the drive then you move forward and create.
It sounds like you father and husband have this attitude – That’s what I’m fed up with is no-one is looking to the future here in Spain, maybe I’m using the wrong words with positive work hard etc in previous posts. I want to see drive, invention, optimism, dreams – looking forward rather than making excuses like the government needs to do something.
I am sad that you think that there is nothing left here, I don’t feel that way, Spain for expats has a lot to offer and we need people to come here who are forward thinking with new ideas, new ways of attracting tourism, new businesses, new industry, or re-working the old industries. The last thing we need is to discourage these sorts of people.
As you say not everyone has the ability to become an entrepreneur or diversify to a different skill or industry. But by creating new invention and industry, surely this will give opportunities to everyone.
 

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Jojo - Governments don’t create industries, new business, new creations – individuals do this with goals, invention and dreams. Governments just hang on their coat tails. Unfortunately in the last 10 years governments have hung on bankers coat tails – they chose the wrongens. What we need is everyone to get off their arses, stop whinging and move forward with invention, development and perseverance, not only in Spain, but across the world.
Everyone says government needs to invest in this and that, but name one major inventor or entrepreneur who needed this government assistance. If you have the ideas and the drive then you move forward and create.
It sounds like you father and husband have this attitude – That’s what I’m fed up with is no-one is looking to the future here in Spain, maybe I’m using the wrong words with positive work hard etc in previous posts. I want to see drive, invention, optimism, dreams – looking forward rather than making excuses like the government needs to do something.
I am sad that you think that there is nothing left here, I don’t feel that way, Spain for expats has a lot to offer and we need people to come here who are forward thinking with new ideas, new ways of attracting tourism, new businesses, new industry, or re-working the old industries. The last thing we need is to discourage these sorts of people.
As you say not everyone has the ability to become an entrepreneur or diversify to a different skill or industry. But by creating new invention and industry, surely this will give opportunities to everyone.
Hi Jo, nice to see you back...fellow-addict.:)

Can't agree with you about the Costas. Certainly not the CdS.. The figures tell the story as well as the closed-up shops and bars. And as I said, this area is supposedly one of the wealthiest in Spain. Local unemployment is over 34%. But of course not everyone is on the breadline and money is still being spent by the majority who have work.

And you are not totally correct about business and government. Your business is small and I hope one that will grow. Our business wasn't ICI as I always point out - around 25 employees - but national and local government played an important role in the conduct of our business, sometimes for good, sometimes not so good.

For example our turnover depended hugely on spending power in the economy which depends of course on stable well-paid employment. We also relied on good infrastructure -roads, rail network and so on. Then there were training grants, apprenticeship schemes, all extremely important to any business wishing to be technologically ahead of the field.

It is somewhat of a myth to believe that any business larger than a corner shop can be independent of government decisions. I believe you have no employees? Just you? Once you start growing to the point where you have a 'workforce' you might think differently:)

As for MT...as Jo says, we have a thread for that and you can read what I thinkof her there, if you're interested....;)
 

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Discussion Starter · #88 ·
Hi Jo, nice to see you back...fellow-addict.:)

Can't agree with you about the Costas. Certainly not the CdS.. The figures tell the story as well as the closed-up shops and bars. And as I said, this area is supposedly one of the wealthiest in Spain. Local unemployment is over 34%. But of course not everyone is on the breadline and money is still being spent by the majority who have work.

And you are not totally correct about business and government. Your business is small and I hope one that will grow. Our business wasn't ICI as I always point out - around 25 employees - but national and local government played an important role in the conduct of our business, sometimes for good, sometimes not so good.

For example our turnover depended hugely on spending power in the economy which depends of course on stable well-paid employment. We also relied on good infrastructure -roads, rail network and so on. Then there were training grants, apprenticeship schemes, all extremely important to any business wishing to be technologically ahead of the field.

It is somewhat of a myth to believe that any business larger than a corner shop can be independent of government decisions. I believe you have no employees? Just you? Once you start growing to the point where you have a 'workforce' you might think differently:)

As for MT...as Jo says, we have a thread for that and you can read what I thinkof her there, if you're interested....;)
Good to be back – unlike you oldies I have to work for a living – Joke! You worked hard for your pension. I hope I'm not presuming now but it sounds like you are retired.
I bow to you mrypg9 – In comparison I am just a novice in the business world, but I still believe that government doesn’t create invention and new business, I do understand that tax, employment laws, investment in infrastructure effect business and the knock on of creating employment etc, etc. But, when push comes to shove David Cameron or Mariano Rajoy are not going to create wealth in their countries. They need business people and inventors to come up with the ideas to grow economies.
But is that chicken and egg? What comes first the invention or the environment for that invention? On my second G&T now – is that a bit off track!
I am not a one man (women) band, but I don’t have employees – if the Spanish government made this more attractive I would have employees (I get your point – contradicting myself a bit there) I work with 2 partners, maybe you could call it a cooperative, we each have our own skills that are of mutual benefit and share the wealth or in some months share the debt. The ups and downs of the property business!

Jo
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Discussion Starter · #89 ·
I disagree, the work attitude and positive thinking is only good when you have the basic tools to work with. One of the many problems in Spain is that too many people/expats have gone over there and worked "on the black" and relied on the diminishing tourist trade - outside forces have reduced the tourists there for some years now. Life progresses in fads, and the package holiday of two weeks on the costas no longer appeals to the masses - even before the recession.

My father came from a mining family and moved away as soon as he could to become a plasterer - which he did well - thru hard work, he found a niche of becoming a master plasterer and renovating some famous stately homes and castles. He swore that his children would NEVER go down the pits, as did the rest of his family. Thankfully the pits closed - they were no longer needed - just like lots of tourist fed industries in Spain - what are you left with to "work hard" on???? A diminishing tourist industry (and related industries) and nothing to fill its gap - that bit maybe is the Spanish governments fault. Being positive isnt the answer when there isnt anything. Maybe the government need to introduce something that will rejuvenate the country, but it has to come from the top and their investment powers

Jo xxx
Jo, I've read through your MT forum and if this was good enough for the great women’s policy "it was very much down to the individual to make their own luck. The government put in place the rules and the infrastructure and the rest was down to everyone to do their own thing" - your quote - why isn't this relevant now?

Sorry love a bit of banter! Jo x
 

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Jo, I've read through your MT forum and if this was good enough for the great women’s policy "it was very much down to the individual to make their own luck. The government put in place the rules and the infrastructure and the rest was down to everyone to do their own thing" - your quote - why isn't this relevant now?

Sorry love a bit of banter! Jo x
So do I. The rules and the infrastructure arent in place. The country isnt geared for allowing a free for all. You've got a corrupt government, who have wasted money on worthless projects and now you're left with a financial mess that needs to be cleaned up and paid back before anyone can do anything. You have austerity measures which are designed to hold back spending because so much is owed and no freedom to take the risks. I'm sure that those who "know" on the forum will tell you its because of those "wonder years" that the country/world is in the mess its in, but alot of that in Spain was simply over killing a basic idea (tourism and immigration) and what they thought would happen didnt, because the rules werent in place and the fad passed.

There is a serious problem in Spain and optimism or trying to make your own luck isnt going to change that, not for very many and even for those who do hit it lucky will have to pay for the privilege by way of taxes etc

Jo xxx
 

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Discussion Starter · #91 ·
So do I. The rules and the infrastructure arent in place. The country isnt geared for allowing a free for all. You've got a corrupt government, who have wasted money on worthless projects and now you're left with a financial mess that needs to be cleaned up and paid back before anyone can do anything. You have austerity measures which are designed to hold back spending because so much is owed and no freedom to take the risks. I'm sure that those who "know" on the forum will tell you its because of those "wonder years" that the country/world is in the mess its in, but alot of that in Spain was simply over killing a basic idea (tourism and immigration) and what they thought would happen didnt, because the rules werent in place and the fad passed.

There is a serious problem in Spain and optimism or trying to make your own luck isnt going to change that, not for very many and even for those who do hit it lucky will have to pay for the privilege by way of taxes etc

Jo xxx
Jo, When was you last in this area? Javea has voted in a new government approx. 18 months ago, times are changing the new government are not corrupt they are implementing new initiatives throughout the town, the amount of spending on the basic infrastructure can be seen everywhere. Moraira has been this way for even longer. Although I don’t have first-hand experience, La Nucia further down the coast is reported to be the same. Times are changing – I can only speak of this area, but corruption is becoming a thing of the past.
I don’t agree with national government austerity measures, increasing IVA and god forbid increasing purchase tax on properties. The Spanish employment laws are mad and desperately need reform, the bureaucracy that they love is a pain in the arse, but all of this is on a national level and I agree does need reform. If I could influence that I would try, but locally things are looking up.

Jo
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Jo, When was you last in this area? Javea has voted in a new government approx. 18 months ago, times are changing the new government are not corrupt they are implementing new initiatives throughout the town, the amount of spending on the basic infrastructure can be seen everywhere. Moraira has been this way for even longer. Although I don’t have first-hand experience, La Nucia further down the coast is reported to be the same. Times are changing – I can only speak of this area, but corruption is becoming a thing of the past.
I don’t agree with national government austerity measures, increasing IVA and god forbid increasing purchase tax on properties. The Spanish employment laws are mad and desperately need reform, the bureaucracy that they love is a pain in the arse, but all of this is on a national level and I agree does need reform. If I could influence that I would try, but locally things are looking up.

Jo
x
yes - I'm very impressed with our new mayor - & things are changing in Jávea, on the surface at least, physcial improvements are happening, although as I'm sure you realise, locally there are moans of discontent.........'why do we need a new somethingorother when there are people starving'

but Jávea still has HUGE debts, which admittedly the new local govt is valiantly trying to reduce

but that isn't the entire country, and the problem is so much deeper & on a much grander scale, as you admit
 

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Jo, When was you last in this area? Javea has voted in a new government approx. 18 months ago, times are changing the new government are not corrupt they are implementing new initiatives throughout the town, the amount of spending on the basic infrastructure can be seen everywhere. Moraira has been this way for even longer. Although I don’t have first-hand experience, La Nucia further down the coast is reported to be the same. Times are changing – I can only speak of this area, but corruption is becoming a thing of the past.
I don’t agree with national government austerity measures, increasing IVA and god forbid increasing purchase tax on properties. The Spanish employment laws are mad and desperately need reform, the bureaucracy that they love is a pain in the arse, but all of this is on a national level and I agree does need reform. If I could influence that I would try, but locally things are looking up.

Jo
x
Agree with what you say, Jo. OH and I decided one day we had enough to live on, didn't want to make more money than we needed....so within two weeks had found a place to live in Prague and took steps to hand the running of our businesses to our Managers...who ran them into the ground within a year! (So much for 'workers' control') So we wound up and sold our assets -premises, plant etc. and have never looked back. I was an education professional most of my life so we had a steady income stream when business wasn't good which of course gave us security to take risks in expanding our operations.

I think you will succeed eventually as you have a positive outlook and aren't in a state of denial about the difficulties you know you'll have to encounter.

My only slightly adverse comment would be that we can't live in a bubble and what goes on outside our own immediate sphere must influence what we can and can't do.
But I think you know this:)
 

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Everybody thinks all the money has disappeared. It's just that the people who have been squandering it ie governments and banks can't lay their hands on any more to waste. Until the people who have the money see that the same thing isn't going to happen again, then they won't invest. Building and infracstructure are where the money needs to be invested. But until the political climate is right, then that won't happen. Everything else follows on from that. Until people are in work the governments won't have tax receipts to spend. What they spend it on is the reason why we're in the mess that we are in. Back full circle. It's like the old musical hall song . " There's a hole in my bucket, dear Liza dear Liza "
Hmm. Seems too logical to me, and not enough of a world wide picture.

I think the people who want to get money ie all of us, the rich, the middle of the roaders and the poor, are getting desperate. And as Spain for some strange reason seems to have built basically its whole economy around construction and tourism, which goes hand in hand in some people's mind, we are seeing a revival of huge building schemes which are being billed as the panacea for all. They will provide JOBS, what everyone wants. In my town, which has more than doubled its population since we have been here, (18 years) another 1000 houses are planned in a beautiful spot that a well known member of the town owns (wonder how much money he'll get out of this deal one way or another). Who will buy these houses, when there are businesses closing down left right and centre, immigrants going home, people being laid off at the town hall ... who knows? When the houses are built, what are the builders going to live off? Oh sorry for being so slow - they'll find another project, won't they?? Just like they did in the past.
Last week I received an email about another such project in another part of Spain. There is also a huge project planed for a beautiful beach in Cadiz I believe.
It seems that some people never learn - and that some people never care.
 

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Jo, When was you last in this area? Javea has voted in a new government approx. 18 months ago, times are changing the new government are not corrupt they are implementing new initiatives throughout the town, the amount of spending on the basic infrastructure can be seen everywhere. Moraira has been this way for even longer. Although I don’t have first-hand experience, La Nucia further down the coast is reported to be the same. Times are changing – I can only speak of this area, but corruption is becoming a thing of the past.

x
But where are they getting the money to be able to do all this?

It just doesn't add up.

Are they not "sucking up" to the electorate by doing "paint jobs" when they really should be getting to grips with their debts?
 

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Just for the record, how is the crisis affecting me?
OH has had his salary cut 3 times.
I have half the work I had a few months ago
Many, many business in the town have closed down.
Many new shops have opened - and closed- and opened - and closed
My BIL has had his working hours reduced as an alternative to closing the company (in Bilbao)
The town hall has shed people
4 people I know were made redundant in a call centre recently (admin staff)
We have a new health centre! They want to turn the old one into a shopping centre where ??? will go and spend their non existent money I suppose.
We have new street lights which reduce light pollution, but no one seems to know why it was deemed necessary to make this change at this point in time...

As we have mentioned before, we can, and should (!) only talk about the Spain we know, and this is the Spain I know and live in. Why this should cause disagreement, or disbelief amongst posters is a mystery to me. I am not being negative, I am not casting doom and gloom, I am reporting my life and my environment. I have absolutely no wish to keep people away from Spain; why would I? If you see it differently, that's great, spread a little happiness :), but be realistic as well. Although you know what you see around you, you can't ignore the wider picture and Spain is not doing well.

However, in a crisis it seems to be true that the poor get poorer and the rich get richer, so the long term letting for more luxurious properties that one poster mentioned I can imagine doing well, and the luxury car market is doing better than ever apparently.
 

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OH! And please, lets have no more posts about if only people were more hardworking and had more initiative, and really worked at something then they'd be successful in Spain. You can't accuse more than 5 MILLION people of basically being lazy. Get up and go will make a difference if you're starting a company, but building a company around motivation and determination is often just not enough nowadays. Don't you think the Spanish have tried that one themselves? They are not helpless animals you know. It just doesn't work that way, and shows a lack of understanding IMO. For example, the children here have really long holidays. In one of the companies I worked in they allowed parents time off without pay during some weeks of the summer months, so you see the parents on a month long holiday but perhaps they're not being paid, or perhaps they've worked more in the winter months to make up hours, or perhaps some of them do have a really long holiday!
 

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Just for the record, how is the crisis affecting me?
OH has had his salary cut 3 times.
I have half the work I had a few months ago
Many, many business in the town have closed down.
Many new shops have opened - and closed- and opened - and closed
My BIL has had his working hours reduced as an alternative to closing the company (in Bilbao)
The town hall has shed people
4 people I know were made redundant in a call centre recently (admin staff)
We have a new health centre! They want to turn the old one into a shopping centre where ??? will go and spend their non existent money I suppose.
We have new street lights which reduce light pollution, but no one seems to know why it was deemed necessary to make this change at this point in time...

As we have mentioned before, we can, and should (!) only talk about the Spain we know, and this is the Spain I know and live in. Why this should cause disagreement, or disbelief amongst posters is a mystery to me. I am not being negative, I am not casting doom and gloom, I am reporting my life and my environment. I have absolutely no wish to keep people away from Spain; why would I? If you see it differently, that's great, spread a little happiness :), but be realistic as well. Although you know what you see around you, you can't ignore the wider picture and Spain is not doing well.

However, in a crisis it seems to be true that the poor get poorer and the rich get richer, so the long term letting for more luxurious properties that one poster mentioned I can imagine doing well, and the luxury car market is doing better than ever apparently.
ah......... but you don't live in a little 'expat bubble' do you?

where everything is rosy & 'those poor Spanish' should just get more organised & work harder .....................
























now where's that sarcastic smiley?
 

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Hmm. Seems too logical to me, and not enough of a world wide picture.

I think the people who want to get money ie all of us, the rich, the middle of the roaders and the poor, are getting desperate. And as Spain for some strange reason seems to have built basically its whole economy around construction and tourism, which goes hand in hand in some people's mind, we are seeing a revival of huge building schemes which are being billed as the panacea for all. They will provide JOBS, what everyone wants. In my town, which has more than doubled its population since we have been here, (18 years) another 1000 houses are planned in a beautiful spot that a well known member of the town owns (wonder how much money he'll get out of this deal one way or another). Who will buy these houses, when there are businesses closing down left right and centre, immigrants going home, people being laid off at the town hall ... who knows? When the houses are built, what are the builders going to live off? Oh sorry for being so slow - they'll find another project, won't they?? Just like they did in the past.
Last week I received an email about another such project in another part of Spain. There is also a huge project planed for a beautiful beach in Cadiz I believe.
It seems that some people never learn - and that some people never care.
We've got plenty of empty houses to spare - out of a row of eight houses, only ours and next door are occupied. Mostly from where people have died and their houses get left empty because everybody in the family already has his or her own house.

As I said on my post, my report was about this village and our circumstances.
 

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Just a question, cos I don't really know the answer. Where do the Spanish government expect the money to come from if not tourism, what industry and technology is there that makes money for the country. Does Spains balance of payments go completely out of the window if tourism takes a dive. Surely their whole economic model is built round this.I believe a country should be self sustaining and be able to make its own stuff, and not rely on cheap imports. I have never believed that the global economy really worked in the long term.
 
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