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Hi - i've been reading this, today:

The rift over immigration to Britain continues to widen | Peter Kellner | Comment is free | theguardian.com

The results of this poll by the UK's 'Guardian' newspaper make interesting reading - not least, because the main concern for the majority of the public polled was the issue of 'the right to free movement of citizens within the EU. The respondents were advised that this right extends to British citizens, too - but, that argument cut no ice, whatsoever!

We Brits. who are living in Spain, whilst retaining our British citizenship, might feel the need to consider what, exactly, our position might be in this and in other EU states, should our politicians decide to take heed of the majority (or, more likely, succumb to the pressure..) and seek a 'let-out' on the 'free movement' issue!

Here's the relevant part of the article concerned;

; In large measure, then it's not specific immigration policies that voters reject, but the belief that they are too easily evaded and/or not fully enforced.

That said, there is one feature of current immigration policy that most voters do dislike. By almost 2:1 they want the European Union to scrap the right of free movement throughout the EU. In asking the question we made clear that this freedom cuts both ways, with Britons able to live and work elsewhere in the EU and citizens of other EU countries to settle here. By 52% to 29%, voters want David Cameron to seek to end these rights as part of his proposed renegotiation of the United Kingdom's relationship with the EU.

The importance of this is underlined by responses to another question. We listed 10 possible issues for renegotiation and asked people to identify up to three that mattered most to them. "Greater control of our borders and immigration from the EU" was the runaway winner, picked by 57%. It was the first choice of every social, political and demographic group. The next two – our ability to determine our own trade policies, and set our own human rights laws – came a distant, joint second, on 27%.
.

Saludos,
GC
 

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I think the issue is mainly 'benefits'. This could be solved easily if they do like in Spain. If you didn't work before, you won't get any benefits, no matter how serious your situation might be.

For every year worked you will get 4 months 'contributions' based unemployment benefit. After that, you are on your own.

Not sure why is this so complicated to do in the UK.

People wouldn't emigrate to the UK just to get benefits, knowing beforehand they won't get anything.

.. and this would be done for UK citizens as well... of course.
 

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I think the important point to grasp is that this should not be an issue of race or ethnicity. It is an issue of numbers and resources. Any attempt to make it into an issue of race should be firmly resisted.

No country in the world has open borders. Even the EU has placed restrictions on who can take advantage of the free movement of peoples policy. For example, the UK and ROI were the only two member states who allowed free entry in 2004 from the former Socialist bloc countries. As I experienced this in my part of the UK, it served to cause great friction between communities and incomers over access to scarce resources and was of benefit chiefly to gangmasters and other employees.
Of course, no-one consulted the 'ordinary' people of the UK as to whether they wished their communities to be drastically changed. It's interesting that some of the most vocal opponents of Eastern European immigration are from second and third generation Brits of Asian or West Indian descent.
It's not just the UK which is experiencing difficulties with Eastern European migration. Germany, Denmark, the Netherlands and even Spain have voiced concerns.

The problem with the UK is that welfare benefits are residence and not contribution based. After three months a migrant claiming 'self employed' status has access to the same range of benefits as a UK citizen. If the projected numbers arrive next year which is likely -and don't forget that the number entering in 2004 was widely underestimated - then this could be unaffordable.

As for the position of UK migrants in Spain...if it can be proved that no demand will be made on Spanish resources then I see no problem. Same if migrants come to the UK with a job and resources. No problem if numbers are restricted.

I would understand if the Spanish or any government put reasonable restrictions on immigration.
As I said, it's not about race. It's about numbers and resources..
That's where Gordon Brown got it wrong when he called Mrs Duffy a bigot. The voices of the Mrs Duffys of this world are too often ignored by politicians of all Parties who dismiss such views as 'populist' and unworthy of respect.

One reason perhaps why politicians are not respected....
 

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Contrary to popular belief, the main beneficiaries from freedom of movement aren't people looking for state benefits, but the employers. The EU is about making things easier for business.

Migrants especially from Eastern Europe will happily work long hours for low wages on short-term contracts so they are easy to get rid of. The agricultural and horticultural sectors would collapse without them. Businesses will strongly resist any move to make it harder for workers to move freely to where the demand is.

Spain is in a different position because local unemployment is so high, there is no need to rely on migrant labour to pick olives and oranges any more.
 

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I think the issue is mainly 'benefits'. This could be solved easily if they do like in Spain. If you didn't work before, you won't get any benefits, no matter how serious your situation might be.

For every year worked you will get 4 months 'contributions' based unemployment benefit. After that, you are on your own.

Not sure why is this so complicated to do in the UK.

People wouldn't emigrate to the UK just to get benefits, knowing beforehand they won't get anything.

.. and this would be done for UK citizens as well... of course.
I have said the exact same thing in the past.
I'm totally baffled by this stance often seen in the UK, just about every EU nation does not freely open it's doors to all EU citizens. But then again I really don't think Joe Public exactly know what they are talking about to begin with so that doesn't help.

Hey it might not fix the issue totally but why ignore it and jump straight on the anti immigration bandwagon.
'You will never know if you never try' type of thing, until then I don't think the argument is valid.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Contrary to popular belief, the main beneficiaries from freedom of movement aren't people looking for state benefits, but the employers. The EU is about making things easier for business.

Migrants especially from Eastern Europe will happily work long hours for low wages on short-term contracts so they are easy to get rid of. The agricultural and horticultural sectors would collapse without them. Businesses will strongly resist any move to make it harder for workers to move freely to where the demand is.

Spain is in a different position because local unemployment is so high, there is no need to rely on migrant labour to pick olives and oranges any more.
Hi - today, I listened to one of my many BBC Radio podcasts downloaded from 'The Food Programme' series. It was entitled ' The Great British Hop' and included an interview with one of the very few remaining 'Hop' farmers in the UK. He explained why it is that his seasonal workers are all Polish students, despite his advertising, each year, within his local area, for staff. Needless to say, this farmer expressed his great satisfaction with his foreign workforce..!

Yesterday, I heard a BBC News Analysis prog. (another podcast..), in which a group of Rumanian doctors and medical students were interviewed. Incredibly, some 80% of them plan to apply to work within other EU countries, come January, next year - and most will be heading for the UK! Their current salary level, once qualified, at home is the equivalent of £700 p.a. compared with £60,000 in the UK.

They were complaining, also, about high levels of corruption within their own Healthcare system, which they were desperate to escape! On hearing all of this, I could sympathise, entirely, with their wishing to take advantage of the EU's 'free movement' legislation, but their emigration would, surely, devastate the Rumanian Health Services?

In addition, there are always more British students (with high 'A' level grades) hoping to study Medicine than there are Uni.places available - so, what will the future prospects be, for such students, when the NHS is inundated with applications from fully- qualified Rumanian doctors, many aready experienced in their chosen specialisms?

Saludos,
GC
 
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Contrary to popular belief, the main beneficiaries from freedom of movement aren't people looking for state benefits, but the employers. The EU is about making things easier for business.

Migrants especially from Eastern Europe will happily work long hours for low wages on short-term contracts so they are easy to get rid of. The agricultural and horticultural sectors would collapse without them. Businesses will strongly resist any move to make it harder for workers to move freely to where the demand is.

Spain is in a different position because local unemployment is so high, there is no need to rely on migrant labour to pick olives and oranges any more.
I think that's true, the main beneficiaries are employers and welfare claims aren't really an issue although there are several thousand cases of fraudulent claims for non-existent 'dependent children' under investigation, apparently. But that could change when Bulgaria and Romania have unrestricted entry and are unable to find jobs.

One of the problems that has never been openly addressed is the impact of sudden mass immigration on local communities. This isn't just a matter of pressure on scarce resources, it is also a cultural issue. It's interesting to read about the problems between the settled Pakistani community and newcomers, mainly Slovak and Czech Roma, in Page Hall, Sheffield.

Now to be frank, I would not like to live in close proximity of a large Roma community. I have no prejudice against Roma per se in spite of five attempted muggings by Roma whilst living in Prague but simply don't like the culture. You can't bring the customs and culture of Roma in Eastern Europe to a settled 'working-class' comunity in Sheffield or anywhere in the UK without friction.

We Brits are a mongrel race. Immigration has been a constant feature of our history...Celts, Phonecians, Angles, Saxons, Romans, Vikings, French.. and more recent Commonwealth immigration. But this immigration has been slow and quickly led to integration.

As long as we are full members of the UK there's nothing we can do about freedom of movement. Like freedom of capital, we're stuck with it.
Not a Good Thing.
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 · (Edited)
I think the important point to grasp is that this should not be an issue of race or ethnicity. It is an issue of numbers and resources. Any attempt to make it into an issue of race should be firmly resisted.

No country in the world has open borders. Even the EU has placed restrictions on who can take advantage of the free movement of peoples policy. For example, the UK and ROI were the only two member states who allowed free entry in 2004 from the former Socialist bloc countries. As I experienced this in my part of the UK, it served to cause great friction between communities and incomers over access to scarce resources and was of benefit chiefly to gangmasters and other employees.
Of course, no-one consulted the 'ordinary' people of the UK as to whether they wished their communities to be drastically changed. It's interesting that some of the most vocal opponents of Eastern European immigration are from second and third generation Brits of Asian or West Indian descent.
It's not just the UK which is experiencing difficulties with Eastern European migration. Germany, Denmark, the Netherlands and even Spain have voiced concerns.

The problem with the UK is that welfare benefits are residence and not contribution based. After three months a migrant claiming 'self employed' status has access to the same range of benefits as a UK citizen. If the projected numbers arrive next year which is likely -and don't forget that the number entering in 2004 was widely underestimated - then this could be unaffordable.

As for the position of UK migrants in Spain...if it can be proved that no demand will be made on Spanish resources then I see no problem. Same if migrants come to the UK with a job and resources. No problem if numbers are restricted.

I would understand if the Spanish or any government put reasonable restrictions on immigration.
As I said, it's not about race. It's about numbers and resources..
That's where Gordon Brown got it wrong when he called Mrs Duffy a bigot. The voices of the Mrs Duffys of this world are too often ignored by politicians of all Parties who dismiss such views as 'populist' and unworthy of respect.

One reason perhaps why politicians are not respected....
Hi - Yes, the 'Guardian' poll results demonstrate, clearly, that the respondents are motivated by their concern about the numbers involved, NOT, by racist tendencies! Why our UK politicians fail to take note of the 'Mrs. Duffys' in our country, I cannot fathom.
One of the issues which seems to get blurred in any media discussion of British attitudes towards 'Immigration' is that there are parts of the UK which are, already, heavily populated by so-called 'immigrants', many of whom are, in fact, British citizens - namely, people from African, Indian, Pakistani, Cypriot, Bangladeshi et al descent, either born in the UK or with parents or grandparents who'd been granted the right to settle in the UK!

I worked, years ago, as a Youth Worker, within the centre of Blackburn. At that time, in the late 70's, there was huge animosity at what was described as the 'take-over' of certain areas of the city - shops, cinemas, schools etc. were perceived as being 'foreign' and many white British residents complained, vehemently, at having 'lost' their neighbourhood identity - and of having to travel much further to access traditional British food shops and pubs! One such area, in which I worked, was nicknamed 'The Kyber Pass!' This was NOT a sign of affection on the part of 'native' Blackburn folk..!

Again, during my Post. Grad. studies, in Community Education, I visited schools in both Coventry and the' Black Country'. Teachers in schools, both Primary and Secondary, with a high percentage of British Indian, Pakistani or Bangladeshi pupils, spoke of their pro-active, 'inclusive' lessons, which ensured that all pupils, of whatever nationality or background, could participate, equally - with attention being paid to each and every cultural festival and celebration.

But, when I consulted the white parents, they rejected such glossy and optimistic talk! Instead, they focused on the diminishing number of 'native' British pupils in their own children's classes - and they did not wish their offspring to be subjected to 'multicultural' lessons in which 'Christmas' would exactly have the same status as 'Divali' and where the folklore of India or Africa would be studied with the same zeal, and for the same class-time, l as that of Great Britain!

Such matters still rankle, in many parts of the UK, today, IMO. it's within this context that opposition to yet another influx of 'foreigners' must be judged. The concentration of naturalised Brits. from Africa, India etc. within specific parts of the UK, along with changes in the law to accommodate certain of their cultural practices, has led to the false notion that their numbers are much higher than is actually the case - and that many,many more are still to come, with an even greater impact (perceived as 'negative') upon 'native' British cultural traditions, the Laws of the country - and the NHS!

I would very much agree with OPs. here who suggest a 'contributions' based Unemployment Benefits system for the UK - but, I wouldn't wish to see claimants left without any income, once their Unemployment benefit had run out!

In Cadiz city, it's been reported, this last week, that the current 'official' level of unemployed individuals is now 17,000 - out of which some 7,500 have no current right to financial assistance! What would that mean in the UK, where citizens often live far from their families and from any possible support they might be able to provide? How many homeless and 'rough sleepers' would we be prepared to tolerate, lying prone on our streets and, perhaps, dying of hypothermia or starvation?

Regarding the NHS, i'd also support a 'Contributions' based system - but, again, with some kind of 'catch-all' for EU residents, akin to that which we Brits. are able to access, here in Spain. But, one of my concerns is to know what would happen if a newly arrived immigrant were to arrive from outside the EU, with a highly infectious and serious illness? How could we avoid future epidemics if such a person were to be refused treatment, or if future UK immunisation programmes were not to include all residents and their children?

The British Government is grappling, currently, with these issues - in advance of the anticipated 'influx' from Rumania and Bulgaria. I do hope that whatever is determined by our politicians, any new policies will be proportionate, rooted in fairness and will not lead to inhumane and degrading treatment of fellow human beings - but, I daren't hold my breath...!

Saludos,
GC
 

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Hi - Yes, the 'Guardian' poll results demonstrate, clearly, that the respondents are motivated by their concern about the numbers involved, NOT, by racist tendencies! Why our UK politicians fail to take note of the 'Mrs. Duffys' in our country, I cannot fathom.
One of the issues which seems to get blurred in any media discussion of British attitudes towards 'Immigration' is that there are parts of the UK which are, already, heavily populated by so-called 'immigrants', many of whom are, in fact, British citizens - namely, people from African, Indian, Pakistani, Cypriot, Bangladeshi et al descent, either born in the UK or with parents or grandparents who'd been granted the right to settle in the UK!

I worked, years ago, as a Youth Worker, within the centre of Blackburn. At that time, in the late 70's, there was huge animosity at what was described as the 'take-over' of certain areas of the city - shops, cinemas, schools etc. were perceived as being 'foreign' and many white British residents complained, vehemently, at having 'lost' their neighbourhood identity - and of having to travel much further to access traditional British food shops and pubs! One such area, in which I worked, was nicknamed 'The Kyber Pass!' This was NOT a sign of affection on the part of 'native' Blackburn folk..!

Again, during my Post. Grad. studies, in Community Education, I visited schools in both Coventry and the' Black Country'. Teachers in schools, both Primary and Secondary, with a high percentage of British Indian, Pakistani or Bangladeshi pupils, spoke of their pro-active, 'inclusive' lessons, which ensured that all pupils, of whatever nationality or background, could participate, equally - with attention being paid to each and every cultural festival and celebration.

But, when I consulted the white parents, they rejected such glossy and optimistic talk! Instead, they focused on the diminishing number of 'native' British pupils in their own children's classes - and they did not wish their offspring to be subjected to 'multicultural' lessons in which 'Christmas' would exactly have the same status as 'Divali' and where the folklore of India or Africa would be studied with the same zeal, and for the same class-time, l as that of Great Britain!

Such matters still rankle, in many parts of the UK, today, IMO. it's within this context that opposition to yet another influx of 'foreigners' must be judged. The concentration of naturalised Brits. from Africa, India etc. within specific parts of the UK, along with changes in the law to accommodate certain of their cultural practices, has led to the false notion that their numbers are much higher than is actually the case - and that many,many more are still to come, with an even greater impact (perceived as 'negative') upon 'native' British cultural traditions, the Laws of the country - and the NHS!

I would very much agree with OPs. here who suggest a 'contributions' based Unemployment Benefits system for the UK - but, I wouldn't wish to see claimants left without any income, once their Unemployment benefit had run out!

In Cadiz city, it's been reported, this last week, that the current 'official' level of unemployed individuals is now 17,000 - out of which some 7,500 have no current right to financial assistance! What would that mean in the UK, where citizens often live far from their families and from any possible support they might be able to provide? How many homeless and 'rough sleepers' would we be prepared to tolerate, lying prone on our streets and, perhaps, dying of hypothermia or starvation?

Regarding the NHS, i'd also support a 'Contributions' based system - but, again, with some kind of 'catch-all' for EU residents, akin to that which we Brits. are able to access, here in Spain. But, one of my concerns is to know what would happen if a newly arrived immigrant were to arrive from outside the EU, with a highly infectious and serious illness? How could we avoid future epidemics if such a person were to be refused treatment, or if future UK immunisation programmes were not to include all residents and their children?

The British Government is grappling, currently, with these issues - in advance of the anticipated 'influx' from Rumania and Bulgaria. I do hope that whatever is determined by our politicians, any new policies will be proportionate, rooted in fairness and will not lead to inhumane and degrading treatment of fellow human beings - but, I daren't hold my breath...!

Saludos,
GC

A truly excellent post!! Deserves many 'likes'. Informative, sensitive and realistic.
Thanks:)

I spend a lot of time thinking about why I instinctively accept my UK friends of Caribbean or Asian descent as being as British as I am yet - and I'm going to be frank here - have an intense dislike to seeing my former UK home town turn into a 'Little Poland'. Part of it is the non-integration...I feel the same about radical Islamists. All my UK friends have regional UK accents...Brummie, Yorkshire, Glaswegian...but the new Eastern European migrants speak in their own language, stick to their communities, watch their tv...just like some Brits in Spain, in fact. I don't like that either..

Politicians in the UK rarely if ever reflect and promote the views of 'ordinary' people, especially left-wing politicians. Imo it's because most of them are university-educated and have never had an 'ordinary' low-paid job. Many have had no life outside of politics or the public sector. They have little if any real contact with 'ordinary' people. Tbh I fitted into that description. I was 'saved' to some extent by working in and being politically active in a very deprived community and by Sandra being a wicked capitalist business owner. I could see both sides. I'm also from a working-class background.
The other reason is imo that most ordinary people are by nature conservative and many hold quite reactionary views on some issues. Many politicians find this distasteful and dismiss these views as 'populist'. It doesn't seem to occur to them that the opposite of 'populist' could be 'elitist'. I find The Guardian deeply elitist. For me it has a horrible smug we're right-on cool politically correct attitude oozing from its pages. Parties like UKIP and the BNP as well as groups like the EDL often strike a chord with ordinary people because they say openly what they are thinking but most people disike extremism of any kind so they steer clear of actually supporting these groups and Parties.

All of course contributing to the contempt many people feel towards politicians...

Interesting that we can debate this topic rationally yet there is deep silence around it in the UK.
 

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Incredibly, some 80% of them plan to apply to work within other EU countries, come January, next year - and most will be heading for the UK! Their current salary level, once qualified, at home is the equivalent of £700 p.a. compared with £60,000 in the UK.
GC
& therin lies the problem. One of the sons next door is married to a Ukranian girl. Last month when I was over there for the grandsons birthday he was telling me that her brother earned 328€/month ! ( University educated & for the life of me I can't remember is occupation! Trouble with getting old.)
When I expressed amazement his wife told me that it was a good wage as the average was around 160€ !!!:eek:
 

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I think the issue is mainly 'benefits'. This could be solved easily if they do like in Spain. If you didn't work before, you won't get any benefits, no matter how serious your situation might be.

For every year worked you will get 4 months 'contributions' based unemployment benefit. After that, you are on your own.

Not sure why is this so complicated to do in the UK.

People wouldn't emigrate to the UK just to get benefits, knowing beforehand they won't get anything.

.. and this would be done for UK citizens as well... of course.
I am left scratching me head whenever I hear this. Social welfare rates in the UK are at or near the lowest in the EU15. There are many reasons for an EU citizen wanting to set up home in the UK - welfare rates (and weather) wouldn't rank very highly.
 

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I am left scratching me head whenever I hear this. Social welfare rates in the UK are at or near the lowest in the EU15. There are many reasons for an EU citizen wanting to set up home in the UK - welfare rates (and weather) wouldn't rank very highly.
It would if you take into account the fact that in most EU states benefits are contribution based not residence as in the UK.
I suspect that welfare rates may indeed be proportionately higher compared to wage rates but wages are much lower in most if not all former socialist states.
Some UK benefits, such as Housing Benefit, don't exist in these countries.
 

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Hi - today, I listened to one of my many BBC Radio podcasts downloaded from 'The Food Programme' series. It was entitled ' The Great British Hop' and included an interview with one of the very few remaining 'Hop' farmers in the UK. He explained why it is that his seasonal workers are all Polish students, despite his advertising, each year, within his local area, for staff. Needless to say, this farmer expressed his great satisfaction with his foreign workforce..!
I must look that up! I grew up in East Kent and I used to go hop-picking with my mum when I was tiny. The "migrant labour" in those days consisted of gypsies and East-Enders from London. The locals thought they were all a bunch of thieves and villains. Plus ça change ...
 

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mrypg9;2457521 As long as we are full members of the UK there's nothing we can do about freedom of movement. Like freedom of capital said:
Well, the British government have known of the likely influx from Romania and Bulgaria for years. So what have they done to prepare for it? Set up a reception agency to direct them to where the work is? Invested money in more housing, schools and health centres in those mainly rural areas where most of them will end up, so the locals aren't forced into further resentment?

I suspect not ... far easier to say "there's nothing we can do".
 

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Contrary to popular belief, the main beneficiaries from freedom of movement aren't people looking for state benefits, but the employers.
Absolutely right. You've hit the nail firmly on the head. It's employers and businesses that benefit the most from this freedom of movement and that's precisely the reason why this government and the previous labour government are, were and continue to be quite happy for 'economic migrants' to continue migrating to the UK. It's also the reason why they have no intention of stopping it and will ignore the pleas of the general population to put restrictions in place.

To justify this, the government will point to the statistics that show an increase in GDP and economic output, an increase in business profits and increase in tax that these 'economic migrants' produce and will conclude based on those figures that net EU migration is producing a positive effect on our economy.

What they won't tell you, or reveal the figures or statistics are at what cost to the taxpayer these economic benefits are having.

Not far from where I live in a leafy Surrey suburb where house prices are probably double the national average live a Polish couple with a small child who rent a 3 bedroom house. This couple job share in a relatively low (minimum) wage job. Neither of them earn anything like enough money to be able to afford the rent on the house they live in. They therefore receive housing benefit. They also receive tax credits to top up their low wages. They also receive child benefits and also probably Council Tax benefit as well. They also take advantage of free schooling, healthcare and so on.

The tax take from their minimum wage jobs (if they even pay any tax at all) will be miniscule in comparison to the amount of money in terms of benefits they're sucking out of the system to enable the pair of them to live a lifestyle neither of them have paid for and neither of them can afford.

That couple are in essence being subsidised by the tax payer. Their net contribution to our economy is in minus figures.

The only winners from that scenario (apart from the couple themselves) are the landlord and the business owner of the company they work for who benefits from cheap labour to maximise his profits.

Not too hard to understand then just why he UK's debt is the largest in living memory and rising day by day despite their recent claims that GDP is increasing.

This is not a sustainable business model for the future and the only real outcomes are going to be and have to be continual increases in taxation to pay for it.

So now you have hard working middle income earners working hard to pay their mortgage and bills without having to resort to being subsidised by the tax payer not only facing higher taxation but also having to suffer the increasing over-crowding, busier roads, competition for school places, reductions in public services and a crumbling health service.

They are in essence paying more for less so that EU migrants who cannot afford the UK lifestyle without state handouts can come here and enjoy all the UK can offer them.

Not that hard to see then why large swathes of the UK population who have worked hard for what they have, who continue to work hard to retain what they have resent their quality of life being reduced by EU 'economic migrants' and increasingly want the government to put restrictions in place and/or put an end to it.

As ever, the UK government is never honest about the figures and statistics and will always paint the picture they want you to see and not the actual reality.
 
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Not far from where I live in a leafy Surrey suburb where house prices are probably double the national average live a Polish couple with a small child who rent a 3 bedroom house. This couple job share in a relatively low (minimum) wage job. Neither of them earn anything like enough money to be able to afford the rent on the house they live in. They therefore receive housing benefit. They also receive tax credits to top up their low wages. They also receive child benefits and also probably Council Tax benefit as well. They also take advantage of free schooling, healthcare and so on.
But this has nothing to do with the fact that they are Polish. The same could be said of millions of British workers. Wages are out of sync with living costs, and as long as that remains the case, the taxpayer has to make up the difference - effectively subsidising the businesses who pay low wages and the landlords who charge high rents.
 

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But this has nothing to do with the fact that they are Polish. The same could be said of millions of British workers. Wages are out of sync with living costs, and as long as that remains the case, the taxpayer has to make up the difference - effectively subsidising the businesses who pay low wages and the landlords who charge high rents.
But having large numbers of immigrants in an area doesn't help.
In reply to a point you made in your earlier post..I'm not sure that the UK Government should spend money on new immigrants when many British people need help with jobs
and housing.
Charity begins at home may be a cliche..but it's a truism most people adhere to.
 

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But this has nothing to do with the fact that they are Polish. The same could be said of millions of British workers. Wages are out of sync with living costs, and as long as that remains the case, the taxpayer has to make up the difference - effectively subsidising the businesses who pay low wages and the landlords who charge high rents.
You're right, it doesn't have anything to do with them being Polish. but it has everything to do with them being EU 'economic migrants', which they are.

What exactly is the point in allowing millions of unskilled EU 'economic migrants' into the UK to do unskilled work which the UK taxpayer effectively has to subsidise when there are already many here already in the same situation?

This isn't helping GDP, economic growth or the economic bottom line. This is just storing up yet more debt for future generations.

Incidentally, the landlord of that property is simply charging the market rate for the area it's in. The couple living in it could not afford to live in that property if the council didn't subsidise them to do so.

And don't get me on the reasons for why councils have to put social housing tenants into privately owned properties and pay market rents for them.

I'd also like to point out that both those two 'economic migrant's have much newer and better quality cars than I do. But then, I'm just a foolish middle income earner who has worked hard all my life and paid a mortgage to buy my own property only to live near to two Polish people who could never afford to buy or rent the house they live in without council assistance.

Which leaves them free to spend their money on better quality cars than I can afford.
 

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Yes, the 'Guardian' poll results demonstrate, clearly,
The Gruniad poll results demonstrate b*gger all. the whole thing is, as usual, slewed to give the "results" that justify the article they wanted written and have little real connection with the truth. There is no indication of the size of the sample, nor political affiliations, not any of the other criteria that would bias those answering the survey and there is no indication as to how many people, who they were or any other criteria, were involved. Ask 20 people outside the jobcentre on a Monday morning and you'll get a totally different set of answers from asking 20 people in Harrods. Surveys are 100% suspect unless carried out by unbiased independent bodies, using unbiased questions and assessed by unbiased independent invigilators.
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
Hi - re. my earlier post in which I quoted a BBC Podcast (BBC R4; 'World At One.' Nov.18th,2013);
I've realised I have to make a correction and apologise to readers of this thread!

The doctors and medical students who, on being interviewed for this programme, claimed to be intent on leaving their country, with the aim of relocating to the UK, were Bulgarian - NOT Rumanian, as I'd posted. The intentions of Rumanian doctors were not addressed in this 'World At One' prog.

So, sorry, everyone, for misinforming you! If I could locate the appropriate smiley (red face/embarrassment), I'd post it right here...!

Saludos,
GC
 
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