[Miss Brodie]

Do yourself a favour. Dont move here. Its is pretty but exquisitely dull. Dont do it to your teenagers. Move here when you retire.

The restaurants are so-so, contrary to the gastronomic capital of France hype. Once you've eaten ten Menu Lyonnais you've had enough and that is pretty much what is available.

The Lyonais have a rep for being cold and unfriendly. i dont think that is actually the case. I haven't had people be unfriendly to me, but I would say is that ' the Lyonnais simply dont need any new friends". They just are not a gregarious, outgoing vibrant people.

Yes, there are bars, but generally they are not very full. There are a few in the Old town that are full of students mostly and then there is The Wallace, which is OK.

I have walked the city a lot, thinking I must be missing out of some rockin scene somewhere and it just aint happening. I have walked past bars on Sat night, in the centre that have three people in. Even my French guest from Montpellier said that it was a bit dull.

Sadly I got her to come on the Festival of LIghts. Total letdown. No music. Little atmosphere and a feeling that it had got a bit too Municipal and not very local. Some of the light installation..were more of a 'mmmm...ok" than oh lovely!!
It is sedate.It is probably a good pace to bring up your little Sophie and Jacks and have them be 'bilangue' by 5yrs old.

Amd here come my French schhol system rant....

Dont forget they will stll be wetting the bed at 8yrs as they are taught to self-flaggelate about their position in the class and their 'Moyenne.'

I have to say, a few years ago I couold be heard saying that I wouldnt put a kid in a London comp..... now I wouldnt put a kid in the French school system.
It breeds drones, ok that a bit harsh but the system doesn't breed younsters who are independent thinkers. Their kids dont like learning any more than UK kids and they use ritual humiliation as a teaching and learning strategy. Sadly they dont know any better.


Right now, I would advise someone to make use of the millions Blair got from the city and put into schools, while it lasts.. you paid for it - at least once.

And remember, its you that wanted your kid to be dual culture, not them, and they will never will be, not unless you marry into a French family.

 

[Guest]

Once you've eaten ten Menu Lyonnais you've had enough and that is pretty much what is available.

Pretty much what is available? Well in a cosmopolitan city of a million people, not only a gastronomic centre in terms of French cuisine but with a great variety of alternatives from around the world, I beg to differ!

As for the stuff about the French school system. Breeding drones? They forgot to mention to my kids (3e and terminale, all their schooling in French state schools) that they weren't supposed to turn into independent thinkers. I'm sorry, but that's simply not true. You're welcome to your opinion, and the French education system isn't perfect by any means, but there's far worse than an emphasis on getting good marks. Generally speaking those who complain about the pressures involved are those whose kids are having problems academically, rather than those that who consistently are above the 'moyenne'. But the system isn't a problem if the teachers are sensitive to the needs of those children who are struggling, and able to offer encouragement. Whether the teachers are up to the task is another matter - this varies from school to school, and is a worldwide problem, not limited to France.

 

[hils]

I'm with you Frog !

The French scholastic system isn't perfect - but no more is any other - & the kids that can do, anyway, float to the top. (Not including my kid who, having got her Bac OIB, enrolled on an undertaking course and is now fully qualified to either bury or cremate you, and is looking for a job - anyone know of anything going ?) We live in truly "peasant" France (la France "profonde") where most kids - and their parents - are satisfied with marginally scraping average, and they have no aspiration beyond establishing another "peasant" generation. And I'm not being rude; it really is, if you talk to them, what they feel & think.

From experience, as a teacher here, occasionally, you get a kid who wants - and needs - a more dynamic environment. They shine like a star & are almost invariably ostracised by their peers. They have to be tough to overcome that, & that is probably the best education they'll ever get !

Lyon ? Blimey - you don't know how good you've got it. If you think Lyon is France, think again - and don't judge France on what you see there - it's not representative - it's too cosmopolitan (even if YOU think it's "dull"). If you want REAL France, get out to the booneys & mingle with the natives. Scary, I know, but until you do it, don't judge ....

Hils

 

[Miss Brodie]

Did you get this out of a guidebook circa 1982?

"Well in a cosmopolitan city of a million people, not only a gastronomic centre in terms of French cuisine but with a great variety of alternatives from around the world,"

I have had many conversations with others about this who actually live here and they agree completely with me on this. The food is no longer "amazing"!!! I appreciate that you live in Provence and yes it can be hard to get an inspiring meal there, but it isn't on every street corner here either. It is the rare restaurnant that makes you think' im glad that I live in France'. (Obviously Paul Bocuse and L'Auberge are a different matter but they are a remortgage night out, not your average.)


I have been coming to France since the early '70's when a 10f Relais Routier meal knocked your sock off. I hoped that Lyons reputation was a reminder of this. But no. Think again.

My assessment of the French School system is based on research of the Concours and the Capes and discussion with French trained teachers. Their teacher training is based on a very thin pedagogic basis. They have a lecture and listen, memorise and regurgitate approach to learning. This has been proved as less effective than engagement and involvement. See cognitive learning pioneers, Vygotsky, Piaget, Gardner. Uk teachers have to plan with these teaching and learning strategies in mind. These strategies reach a variety of learning styles. Lecture and listen does not.

I REGULARLY have college students in front of me in tears having got a 16/20 instead of 19. They see themselves as failing. This starts in Primaire!. These are not students having academic problems.

And to clarify matters, I know France pretty well, and have a lot of experience of quite a few different regions.

If I am dismissive, I admit it may be because I am a Londoner and food is London is cosmopolitan.

Oh yes, and I still haven't met a Frenchie who can outcook anyone I know in the Uk.

Times have changed.

 

[hils]

Oh dear .....

(but I'm not going to kick off again)

 

[jojo]

Did you get this out of a guidebook circa 1982?

"Well in a cosmopolitan city of a million people, not only a gastronomic centre in terms of French cuisine but with a great variety of alternatives from around the world,"

I have had many conversations with others about this who actually live here and they agree completely with me on this. The food is no longer "amazing"!!! I appreciate that you live in Provence and yes it can be hard to get an inspiring meal there, but it isn't on every street corner here either. It is the rare restaurnant that makes you think' im glad that I live in France'. (Obviously Paul Bocuse and L'Auberge are a different matter but they are a remortgage night out, not your average.)


I have been coming to France since the early '70's when a 10f Relais Routier meal knocked your sock off. I hoped that Lyons reputation was a reminder of this. But no. Think again.

My assessment of the French School system is based on research of the Concours and the Capes and discussion with French trained teachers. Their teacher training is based on a very thin pedagogic basis. They have a lecture and listen, memorise and regurgitate approach to learning. This has been proved as less effective than engagement and involvement. See cognitive learning pioneers, Vygotsky, Piaget, Gardner. Uk teachers have to plan with these teaching and learning strategies in mind. These strategies reach a variety of learning styles. Lecture and listen does not.

I REGULARLY have college students in front of me in tears having got a 16/20 instead of 19. They see themselves as failing. This starts in Primaire!. These are not students having academic problems.

And to clarify matters, I know France pretty well, and have a lot of experience of quite a few different regions.

If I am dismissive, I admit it may be because I am a Londoner and food is London is cosmopolitan.

Oh yes, and I still haven't met a Frenchie who can outcook anyone I know in the Uk.

Times have changed.

You've had a bad day havent you!! Dont worry we all get them

Jo xxx

 

[Guest]

Did you get this out of a guidebook circa 1982?

"Well in a cosmopolitan city of a million people, not only a gastronomic centre in terms of French cuisine but with a great variety of alternatives from around the world,"

I have had many conversations with others about this who actually live here and they agree completely with me on this. The food is no longer "amazing"!!! I appreciate that you live in Provence and yes it can be hard to get an inspiring meal there, but it isn't on every street corner here either. It is the rare restaurnant that makes you think' im glad that I live in France'. (Obviously Paul Bocuse and L'Auberge are a different matter but they are a remortgage night out, not your average.)

I have been coming to France since the early '70's when a 10f Relais Routier meal knocked your sock off. I hoped that Lyons reputation was a reminder of this. But no. Think again.

My assessment of the French School system is based on research of the Concours and the Capes and discussion with French trained teachers. Their teacher training is based on a very thin pedagogic basis. They have a lecture and listen, memorise and regurgitate approach to learning. This has been proved as less effective than engagement and involvement. See cognitive learning pioneers, Vygotsky, Piaget, Gardner. Uk teachers have to plan with these teaching and learning strategies in mind. These strategies reach a variety of learning styles. Lecture and listen does not.

I REGULARLY have college students in front of me in tears having got a 16/20 instead of 19. They see themselves as failing. This starts in Primaire!. These are not students having academic problems.

And to clarify matters, I know France pretty well, and have a lot of experience of quite a few different regions.

If I am dismissive, I admit it may be because I am a Londoner and food is London is cosmopolitan.

Oh yes, and I still haven't met a Frenchie who can outcook anyone I know in the Uk.

Times have changed.

Less of the sarcasm please. Just because you are contradicted doesn't entitle you to make thinly disguised personal attacks. Which, by the way, are against forum rules, so be careful.

No 'Miss Brodie'. I did not get it out of a guidebook. I have lived in Villeurbanne, Croix Rousse, as well as just off the Place des Terreaux, and I have family there. And my comment is factually based while yours is, for the most part, pure hyperbole. Witness obvious silliness like ''Dont forget they will stll be wetting the bed at 8yrs''. Patently untrue.

Obviously there is a big variety of cuisine from all around the world in Lyon. One isn't limited to dining in the 'bouchons'. Just because you haven't discovered the gems doesn't mean they don't exist. You pigeon-holed an entire city with ''The restaurants are so-so'', so don't be surprised if people who know that is at least an exaggeration come back at you as a result.

On the other hand my view is that standards overall - throughout France - have dropped a little. But selecting one's dining haunts with care, there are still plenty of excellent restaurants to be found.

And your stereotyped summing up of the education system doesn't rhyme with my experience, which includes working in a school in the 70s, and raising three kids from creche to university here, over a twenty year period.

I have never seen a youngster in tears over a 16/20. Just asked my 14 year old what he thought of that comment, and the reply was ''c'est une blague?'' Followed by ''I've not seen anyone cry over a 'note' since I first arrived in college''.

So sorry, I know which version of the situation makes sense to me.

 

[hils]

Thank goodness!

I really am fed up with people knocking where they are; if they don't like it, having upped sticks once, then up them again !

Asking for help is a different issue; encountering perceived blockages and asking how to get round them is a different issue; asking how things actually are is a different issue.

Blimey - did we really all come here just to throw stones at the locals ? I think not.

If things can be improved (which they always can, but your/my vision isn't necessarily the way forward), there are ways to express it; ranting on here isn't one of them (well, in my view, it isn't).

O hell - just be glad you don't live in Haiti!

H

 

[JonHig]

Thank goodness!

I really am fed up with people knocking where they are; if they don't like it, having upped sticks once, then up them again !

Asking for help is a different issue; encountering perceived blockages and asking how to get round them is a different issue; asking how things actually are is a different issue.

Blimey - did we really all come here just to throw stones at the locals ? I think not.

If things can be improved (which they always can, but your/my vision isn't necessarily the way forward), there are ways to express it; ranting on here isn't one of them (well, in my view, it isn't).

O hell - just be glad you don't live in Haiti!

H

Hear hear! The Philippines is another to add to the list

 

[Guest]

Hear hear! The Philippines is another to add to the list

Sorry to hear that - I absolutely loved living in Thailand, and can't wait to get back there again, in 3 years' time. It was a case of 'force majeure' that made me return to France, otherwise I would definitely still be out there! Not that France is as bad as all that

 

[JonHig]

Sorry to hear that - I absolutely loved living in Thailand, and can't wait to get back there again, in 3 years' time. It was a case of 'force majeure' that made me return to France, otherwise I would definitely still be out there! Not that France is as bad as all that

Yes, i loved Thailand when i went for a holiday a few years ago. Unfortunately it would not really 'fit the bill' from a living angle. If i was single on the other hand!

 

[Guest]

Yes, i loved Thailand when i went for a holiday a few years ago. Unfortunately it would not really 'fit the bill' from a living angle. If i was single on the other hand!

Oh I don't know - the rep isn't all deserved, there are whole swathes of the country that aren't anything like the picture often portrayed in the West, ie Pattaya may be in Thailand, but Thailand certainly isn't Pattaya. I'm married to a Thai (see other thread you contributed to ref visas etc for France), and I reckon life for a happily married couple is great in the Land Of Smiles. Of course nothing's perfect, but it'll do for me!

 

[contentedscot]

Hils - glad to see you're calming down.

Miss Brodie - you have put two different topics in the same post - "boring" Lyon and French education.

As said this forum is to help people, so why not extract a few pointers for others from Miss Brodie's situation?

If anyone planning move to France reads this, make a list of what is important, and visit lots of places at different times to make sure they tick as many boxes as possible.

This is France, and French in the main like to eat French food with French wine and French water. I have only spent 3 days in Lyon so I can't talk about range of restaurants - but maybe there's scope for some of Miss Brodie's friends to open a cookery school since so many French people can't cook properly.

But as I have said before, I chose to live here, so no use complaining about things I can't change, eg nightlife or eating possibilities.

 

[Guest]

This is France, and French in the main like to eat French food with French wine and French water. I have only spent 3 days in Lyon so I can't talk about range of restaurants - but maybe there's scope for some of Miss Brodie's friends to open a cookery school since so many French people can't cook properly.

There may be an age issue here. My experience is that generalising greatly, the British don't come close to the French in terms of cooking ability, when you are looking at a certain generation (ie in their 40s up). I am more concerned that those of the younger age groups are not getting the grounding that they once did - French youngsters today simply don't have the same experience of helping out in the kitchen, they are too busy getting on with their increasingly hectic lives, Anglo-Saxon style. I doubt many of them even know what a soufflé is, nowadays.

 

[Guest]

Just a quick glance at the Petit Paumé reveals just how vast is the choice in alternative cuisines, around Lyon. From Brazil to Mexico, via virtually all of Europe, to Africa (the Maghreb of course, as well as Central Africa), to Libya, Armenia, Syria, Iran, Afghanistan, Sri Lanka, India and Pakistan, and on to China via the former French colonies of what was once known as Indochina... that'll do me. Yes the French are proud of their own reputation in this field, and of course there is great variety there too, between the different regions of France. All of which are represented around a crossroads city such as Lyon.

The Petit Paumé has 282 'foreign' restaurants listed, and 1,062 French restaurants. I'm sure that an enthusiastic search would turn up a few excellent value and quality establishments. I've eaten in plenty myself.

 

[hils]

Hils - glad to see you're calming down.

{mwah} lol

 

[contentedscot]

Pretentious? Mwah?

Sorry - can't resist puns - even in 2 (?) languages

lol

Ian

 

[Miss Brodie]

No frogblogger you experience does not cancel out mine - if your are point scoring. I stand by what say.

However, if your kid thinks that students crying over their notes is ridiculous, then I take that on board - and it indicates that I am working in wierd place and that the pressure they feel is not the norm. They examine four times a term.

And Hils, I did not up sticks to throw stone at the locals ans I dont think I am. Dont be so alarmed by a bit if debate.

I may be upping sticks im afraid. I am having a difficult time here and perhaps it isnt working out for me , which is a huge disappointment as ive been a france lover since i was 6 yrs old.

 

[Miss Brodie]

Also, contented scot,

Actually most of the English people know are obsessed with cooking. It would be hilarious if a Brit would come over here and open a cooking school - but I think national pride would make them go bust pretty quicky.

My sister has a blogsite called The English Can Cook. She goes under the name of MIss Marmite Lover and she runs a supper club. Many of her guests are frequently foodies and food bloggers but what jas struck me about what she is doind is jusr how much Brits are into food and cooking it. I'd love here to come over here and do that. But she is a veggie...which is praps a limited market.

Even The Roux Brothers in one of their books clearly state that the UK has has a REVOLTION in food and cooking.

I agree a bout the age thing. My ex's mum ( age 74) has cooked me some lovely stuff... slowly braised fennel ....but ive got around 5 female friends in their late 30's early 40's from different parts of the country and none of them have blown my mouth senses out with their cooking.
I dont agree that its the Anglo Saxon thing. I think its that women now have full time jobs and this dictates thier relationship to cooking.I think that this is what has changed stuff more than anything.

 

[nyma nyma]

Moaning achieves nothing! if you dont like it-change it, (by moving else where or taking on the local school sytem, not so easy) or if you are not going to do anything about it, stop moaning!