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Sad but we can't visit the sins of the father on the sons or daughters, Mick.

Anyway, apart from the usual ragbag of sad old Fascists, Nazis and such like scum, who is interested?
Spanish people experienced enough savagery, ignorance, superstition and repression during the Franco years. Like present-day Germans, the lesson has been learned.

How can anyone wish the return of or experience nostalgia for a regime which was rightly for years the pariah of the civilised world?

These people are to be pitied, not feared.
 

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Couldn't in be said that such parties and people find themselves in power during years of financial hardship, where the people of the country find themselves suffering and need a scapegoat? That scapegoat is usually foreigners, especially if they have a darker skin tone or a "funny" religion.
 

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Couldn't in be said that such parties and people find themselves in power during years of financial hardship, where the people of the country find themselves suffering and need a scapegoat? That scapegoat is usually foreigners, especially if they have a darker skin tone or a "funny" religion.
It most definitely can be said. Extreme right-wing groups are spreading their sick messages all over Europe. They feed on people's fears and insecurities.
 

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SNIP/

When talking to people here in Spain SNIP/ who lived during the Franco era the picture that emerges is too often very different from what the pseudo intellectuals from the left will try making it sound alike. There were no crimes, they all had work, they all could afford a place to live, food on the table and if some foreigner came here for to do harm to others, they often ended up in a container and dumped out at sea. It was good for moral and good for society, not to forget, it kept the state's spending cost down as well. Pity the victims, not the perpetrators.

Today people are thrown out from their homes, about 6 millions have no work, see no future and crimes due to immigration seem to become higher and higher for each year that goes by. Are there seriously anyone who could find sane arguments for that this mayhem is better?

No emotional whining now please, just stick to arguments containing verifiable context.
 

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When talking to people here in Spain who lived during the Franco era the picture that emerges is too often very different from what the pseudo intellectuals from the left will try making it sound alike. There were no crimes, they all had work, they all could afford a place to live, food on the table and if some foreigner came here for to do harm to others, they often ended up in a container and dumped out at sea. It was good for moral and good for society, not to forget, it kept the state's spending cost down as well. Pity the victims, not the perpetrators.

Today people are thrown out from their homes, about 6 millions have no work, see no future and crimes due to immigration seem to become higher and higher for each year that goes by. Are there seriously anyone who could find sane arguments for that this mayhem is better?

No emotional whining now please, just stick to arguments containing verifiable context.


I cannot believe that you, a foreigner and guest in this country, can have the brass neck to say that there were no crimes in the Franco era. Tell that to the tens of thousands of relatives who are even now identifying the remains of their relatives, massacred in cold blood and thrown into ditches. Tell that to the parents of children stolen from their families.
I'm no communist and I recognise that murders were also committed by the Left. Unlike you, I make no apologies for them.
You should try preaching your perverted view of history to those many Spaniards, like the ninety year old mother of my friend and neighbour. She lived through the years of starvation and unemployment that characterised the period after the Civil War. She sw Franco's Moroccan troops rape, pillage and murder through Andalucia.
My gender is no way dubious,I'm female or was the last time I looked,my sexual orientation is lesbian, I have no firm political views. You are a holocaust denier, homophobe and an apologist for a criminal regime that blighted Spain's history.

I hope you will continue posting and exposing your views even more. You will, I fear, find zero support for them as most people find them repellent. But keep your homophobia to yourself. Such abuse is against Forum rules.
 

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I am a guest in this country and therefore do not involve myself in the arguments of past conflicts.

I have a vote in this country and am entitled to involve myself in Spanish politics. As for the Civil War, I also have the right to an opinion. It was a major historical event of the twentieth century in which Britain played a shameful role. Many British people fought and died for the Spanish Republic.

But you are right in that lowering oneself to debate with the unspeakable is a waste of time.
As someone said on a previous and similar thread, Don't feed the troll.
 

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When talking to people here in Spain (not communist trash of course) who lived during the Franco era the picture that emerges is too often very different from what the pseudo intellectuals from the left will try making it sound alike. There were no crimes, they all had work, they all could afford a place to live, food on the table and if some foreigner came here for to do harm to others, they often ended up in a container and dumped out at sea. It was good for moral and good for society, not to forget, it kept the state's spending cost down as well. Pity the victims, not the perpetrators.

Today people are thrown out from their homes, about 6 millions have no work, see no future and crimes due to immigration seem to become higher and higher for each year that goes by. Are there seriously anyone who could find sane arguments for that this mayhem is better?

No emotional whining now please, just stick to arguments containing verifiable context.

If my husband's grandfather was still alive, I would have dared you to say that to him.

I sure hope you're trolling. If not, please know that while life was wonderful for those who pulled the party line (or feigned it), those who didn't care to fake it in order to save themselves had a very difficult time. Heck, OH's grandpa was fined for giving his WIFE a kiss in public.

As for a sane argument that this is better...? Well, I'm free to be a protestant and married to my husband. Free to purchase my own property (gosh, a woman buying property!) without my husband's permission. I don't need the government's and church's approval for simple transactions. I don't get points for being a good catholic, for doing things for the government, etc. Points that were necessary to get things done (again, those simple transactions I referred to.) If you're nostalgic for the "security" where people were getting dragged out of their houses and shot, (perdón, disappeared) well, gosh man. I'm sorry. Everyone was employed and had a house because if you weren't employed "the man" could accuse you under the Ley de vagos y maleantes. OH's grandfather was woken one day by the police who told him the next day he had to report to the local steel mill, like it or not. He had work there all his life, poorly paid, but he had work. Ask OH's grandmother about how much food they had on the table. Ask her why fried flour is one of her favorite treats. Ask the people in my town about what happened and why half the town killed the other half of the town (with the government's blessing, of course.)

I pray you're trolling.
 

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'Dubious gender' ?? :D homophobe as well as is usually the case with apologists for racists and murderers..

I cannot believe that you, a foreigner and guest in this country, can have the brass neck to say that there were no crimes in the Franco era. Tell that to the tens of thousands of relatives who are even now identifying the remains of their relatives, massacred in cold blood and thrown into ditches. Tell that to the parents of children stolen from their families.
I'm no communist and I recognise that murders were also committed by the Left. Unlike you, I make no apologies for them.
You should try preaching your perverted view of history to those many Spaniards, like the ninety year old mother of my friend and neighbour. She lived through the years of starvation and unemployment that characterised the period after the Civil War. She sw Franco's Moroccan troops rape, pillage and murder through Andalucia.
My gender is no way dubious,I'm female or was the last time I looked,my sexual orientation is lesbian, I have no firm political views. You are a holocaust denier, homophobe and an apologist for a criminal regime that blighted Spain's history.

I hope you will continue posting and exposing your views even more. You will, I fear, find zero support for them as most people find them repellent. But keep your homophobia to yourself. Such abuse is against Forum rules.

Oh yes, I am a guest in this wonderful country, a guest among these wonderful people for sure, but I also have the good taste to be acting accordingly, in a difference to many others wasting space here. At the same time I am a Spanish citizen as well, married to Spanish woman and self employed. I also pay my taxes and are not a burden to society in any way, on the contrary, I add foreign economical value in to Spain each month through my own efforts. I also didn't come here for to commit crimes, nor for to get some cheaper healthcare or brighter future in the sun at the expense of tax payers, so that's why I generally speaking ,have little tolerance and empathy for them that do.

And what's this BS with Crimes and Franco? Franco fought Communists, so of course, if you ask a communist what he think of Franco you don't exactly have to cook your brain while trying to figure-out the answer, now do you? It is the same as asking the victims of communism what they think about communism. It is really a very daft argumentation to bring up when being an adult.

Franco gave everyone a job, roof over their heads and food on the table. He introduced social security to the people, free healthcare for the workers while the rich had to pay, in case of losing your job, economical compensation (dole money) and a very luxury pension system not only including the widow or widower, but also the children in some cases. He launched a program building cheap houses and apartments for the people where you could buy them while only having to pay about 10% of your salary in mortgage a month. Nothing of this was available before Franco came to power.

And for Franco's Moroccan troops... yeah do'h! When he found out what they had been up to he put most of them in containers and drowned them at sea. Not one of these vermin's got the chance of becoming Spanish citizens as originally agreed. But your neighbour forgot to tell you about that part, didn't she?

And as for me being a...homophobe....??? I am not afraid of either pederasts, lesbians or pack-men I can assure you. I just happen to be living in a different reality than them where I don't feel an obligation to run around the town once a year making an as^ out of myself while trying to preach for the choir all about how proud and happy I am for being straight.

The reason of why I said; dubious gender, is/was because I so often get to hear about how they feel they have been born in the wrong body. And then you have to ask yourself, what determines gender?... is it what you think or wish for, or is it the physical reality? So.. of us two, it's not me being the pervert here. I sure am as the creator intended.

And that's it!!... you even admit having to double check what gender you have. "the last time I checked"....? Are you morphing back and forth? :D And I who thought Alien was a bit scary! :painkiller:

And what now.. you accuse me of being a holocaust denier as well? I have never even once denied holocaust, just pointed at FACTS proving without the shadow of a doubt, that the 6 millions claimed to have been killed in the concentration camps are very far from reality.

And finally... Yes thank you, I will keep posting and expose my views further, it is in my nature. I was born with my own opinions and still have them in difference to certain others who seem to only be using old quotes and thoughts produced by others.

Since I'm not a homophobe, nor Nazi, You better keep your homosexuality and accusations to yourself! To promote racism through perversion can't hardly be in accordance with forum rules since it will upset all people of a straight nature, not to forget all Muslims through-out the world.
 

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Oh yes, I am a guest in this wonderful country, a guest among these wonderful people for sure, but I also have the good taste to be acting accordingly, in a difference to many others wasting space here. At the same time I am a Spanish citizen as well, married to Spanish woman and self employed. I also pay my taxes and are not a burden to society in any way, on the contrary, I add foreign economical value in to Spain each month through my own efforts. I also didn't come here for to commit crimes, nor for to get some cheaper healthcare or brighter future in the sun at the expense of tax payers, so that's why I generally speaking ,have little tolerance and empathy for them that do.

And what's this BS with Crimes and Franco? Franco fought Communists, so of course, if you ask a communist what he think of Franco you don't exactly have to cook your brain while trying to figure-out the answer, now do you? It is the same as asking the victims of communism what they think about communism. It is really a very daft argumentation to bring up when being an adult.

Franco gave everyone a job, roof over their heads and food on the table. He introduced social security to the people, free healthcare for the workers while the rich had to pay, in case of losing your job, economical compensation (dole money) and a very luxury pension system not only including the widow or widower, but also the children in some cases. He launched a program building cheap houses and apartments for the people where you could buy them while only having to pay about 10% of your salary in mortgage a month. Nothing of this was available before Franco came to power.

And for Franco's Moroccan troops... yeah do'h! When he found out what they had been up to he put most of them in containers and drowned them at sea. Not one of these vermin's got the chance of becoming Spanish citizens as originally agreed. But your neighbour forgot to tell you about that part, didn't she?


Professor Paul Preston

Hi - re. all of your above opinions, could I suggest you read ALL of Professor Paul Preston's books (see above) on this subject? After all, they are all based on his scrupulous research of the facts - and so have won him many awards and accolades, from within Spain and also from abroad! Whatever your personal political beliefs may be, I am sure you'd find it impossible to challenge, successfully, Paul Preston's impeccably sourced material, all supported with detailed referencing - as you'd expect from such a highly respected and regarded academic!

So, perhaps you'd care to provide this forum thread with some of your own verified sources, in support of your statements - given that you've provided none, so far?

BTW, You seem not to have understood that Franco waged war against an ELECTED government and its supporters - after having first invited Hitler's Luftwaffe to carpet- bomb an undefended small town and its totally defenceless population!
Maybe you consider Picasso to have been a fraud, in having portrayed this horrific event as he did, so graphically, in his acclaimed painting 'Guernica'..?

Regarding the rest of your post, I've chosen not to quote (or air) any more of it.
Fortunately, IMO, we humans (in general) are attempting to crawl ever further forward (with the support of Education), in search of a more inclusive, humane, compassionate world, where 'Justice and Freedom for All' can truly prevail! Wouldn't you prefer to support that effort - rather than cling on to those discredited beliefs, which, as you must know, can have no real future in this modern world of ours... ?

Saludos,
GC
 
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I'm sure that old communist and other degenerated trash of dubious gender find the thoughts of law & order, working for a living to be quite scary since the physical concept of it many times must be totally new to them, or maybe they just lack enough RAM for to process the bigger picture, but who cares, that's what doctors are for.

When talking to people here in Spain (not communist trash of course) who lived during the Franco era the picture that emerges is too often very different from what the pseudo intellectuals from the left will try making it sound alike. There were no crimes, they all had work, they all could afford a place to live, food on the table and if some foreigner came here for to do harm to others, they often ended up in a container and dumped out at sea. It was good for moral and good for society, not to forget, it kept the state's spending cost down as well. Pity the victims, not the perpetrators.

Today people are thrown out from their homes, about 6 millions have no work, see no future and crimes due to immigration seem to become higher and higher for each year that goes by. Are there seriously anyone who could find sane arguments for that this mayhem is better?

No emotional whining now please, just stick to arguments containing verifiable context.
Hi - and your 'verifiable context' for your own statement which I've highlighted in bold, above, would be......?

Saludos,
GC
 

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If my husband's grandfather was still alive, I would have dared you to say that to him.

I sure hope you're trolling. If not, please know that while life was wonderful for those who pulled the party line (or feigned it), those who didn't care to fake it in order to save themselves had a very difficult time. Heck, OH's grandpa was fined for giving his WIFE a kiss in public.

As for a sane argument that this is better...? Well, I'm free to be a protestant and married to my husband. Free to purchase my own property (gosh, a woman buying property!) without my husband's permission. I don't need the government's and church's approval for simple transactions. I don't get points for being a good catholic, for doing things for the government, etc. Points that were necessary to get things done (again, those simple transactions I referred to.) If you're nostalgic for the "security" where people were getting dragged out of their houses and shot, (perdón, disappeared) well, gosh man. I'm sorry. Everyone was employed and had a house because if you weren't employed "the man" could accuse you under the Ley de vagos y maleantes. OH's grandfather was woken one day by the police who told him the next day he had to report to the local steel mill, like it or not. He had work there all his life, poorly paid, but he had work. Ask OH's grandmother about how much food they had on the table. Ask her why fried flour is one of her favorite treats. Ask the people in my town about what happened and why half the town killed the other half of the town (with the government's blessing, of course.)

I pray you're trolling.
Thanks for praying, but no, I'm not trolling and why should I? I have a different view on things than you and a few others here. And some of their views are just as repulsive to me and others as I understand mine are to some of you.

And for your grandpa, with all respect to him, but all system have their flaws and personally I would rather get fined for having kissed my wife in public than having to watch these terrorist from ETA now being released. Having to listen to officials telling us that we have to pity them, to offer them pardon due to their human rights. To find this and other crimes against civilians repulsive has nothing to do with being nostalgic, it has to do with justice. A justice that can't be achieved with the system of today.

The salaries was likely poor back then as you say but the cost of living was also very low, so they probably had more money at the end of the month than what many people have in Spain today. Why your grandpa ended up in a steel mill I just don't know, maybe had been living on the dole a bit too long? but like you say.. he had at least work, a roof over his head and food on the table. Today there are many that wish they had.
 

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Professor Paul Preston

Hi - re. all of your above opinions, could I suggest you read ALL of Professor Paul Preston's books (see above) on this subject? After all, they are all based on his scrupulous research of the facts - and so have won him many awards and accolades, from within Spain and also from abroad! Whatever your personal political beliefs may be, I am sure you'd find it impossible to challenge, successfully, Paul Preston's impeccably sourced material, all supported with detailed referencing - as you'd expect from such a highly respected and regarded academic!

So, perhaps you'd care to provide this forum thread with some of your own verified sources, in support of your statements - given that you've provided none, so far?

BTW, You seem not to have understood that Franco waged war against an ELECTED government and its supporters - after having first invited Hitler's Luftwaffe to carpet- bomb an undefended small town and its totally defenceless population!
Maybe you consider Picasso to have been a fraud, in having portrayed this horrific event as he did, so graphically, in his acclaimed painting 'Guernica'..?

Regarding the rest of your post, I've chosen not to quote (or air) any more of it.
Fortunately, IMO, we humans (in general) are attempting to crawl ever further forward (with the support of Education), in search of a more inclusive, humane, compassionate world, where 'Justice and Freedom for All' can truly prevail! Wouldn't you prefer to support that effort - rather than cling on to those discredited beliefs, which, as you must know, can have no real future in this modern world of ours... ?

Saludos,
GC
Yes, feel free to suggest, but it will just not happen since I have people in the family who experienced it all first hand.
 

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A group of mismatched immigrants arguing ('cos that's what it will be, if it isn't already) about Franco on a forum? :)!
You might want to think about that one for a while...
HI - I don't consider myself to be one of a group of 'mismatched immigrants' (whatever your own definition might be..), thank you. I don't feel obliged to keep silent, either, on reading a post such as the one to which I've now replied. If the Forum rules were to require me to do so, then, of course, I'd take note.

Saludos,
GC
 
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None of us were there, so really we cant comment, regardless of whether we agree with Francos regime or not. It was a battle then and actually its pointless having a third hand, half baked battle over it now. So dont bother

Jo
 

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HI - I don't consider myself to be one of a group of 'mismatched immigrants' (whatever your own definition might be..), thank you. I don't feel obliged to keep silent, either, on reading a post such as the one to which I've now replied. If the Forum rules were to require me to do so, then, of course, I'd take note.

Saludos,
GC
My comment was not meant to offend, GC.
My personal definition of mismatched immigrants, is people from all over living in other countries (= immigrants), who have very different views on the world and who disappointingly are often engaged in arguments (= mismatched) and that's why I used the term.

I did NOT ask you, nor anyone else to be silent on the subject, I just find it, as I said, disappointing that a large number of the threads in the Tasca become arguments. This is not just my opinion as it has been discussed before.

If you've breached any forum rules I'm sure you'll be pulled into line by the mods.
 

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None of us were there, so really we cant comment, regardless of whether we agree with Francos regime or not. It was a battle then and actually its pointless having a third hand, half baked battle over it now. So dont bother

Jo
Actually, I'd be interested in reading a debate about this, but sadly it's not happening here...
 
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