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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Indeed Good News....No need for a european union citizen to have a fiscal representative in Portugal :clap2:

European Court has considered that Portugal had discriminatory fiscal rules for non residents.

Portuguese tax office will start sending rates to european countries. should one not wish to pay for a fiscal representative every year, may simply go to the tax office counter and provide complete home address (in the foreign country).

This new address will be the one used by the tax authorities in all notifications.
 

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Can you please post where this information has come from, our tax office certainly had no knowledge of it on Thurs? nor does the Financas site show anything.

Are you confusing this with the Court saying

" The European Court of Justice held, on 5 May 2011, that Portuguese provisions that oblige non-resident taxpayers who receive Portuguese-source income to appoint a Portuguese fiscal representative are in violation of the EC Treaty's free movement of capital rules, but not those required by the European Economic Area Agreement."

which at the moment wouldn't apply to non residents with a second home but only to non residents who receive an income.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Hello Canoeman,

There is no confusion as far as I know.

What I have been explained by my Lawyer, is that until such time legislation and forms are changed, tax office have internal instructions from central departments to proceed in this way.

Internal rules make reference to decision of European Court and unfulfilment of european treaty.

Non residents are now free to keep fiscal representatives, or to change details in the tax number, takind out fiscal representative address and number and providing their foreign address, where they should be receiving all communications from the tax office.






Can you please post where this information has come from, our tax office certainly had no knowledge of it on Thurs? nor does the Financas site show anything.

Are you confusing this with the Court saying

" The European Court of Justice held, on 5 May 2011, that Portuguese provisions that oblige non-resident taxpayers who receive Portuguese-source income to appoint a Portuguese fiscal representative are in violation of the EC Treaty's free movement of capital rules, but not those required by the European Economic Area Agreement."

which at the moment wouldn't apply to non residents with a second home but only to non residents who receive an income.
 

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"Non residents are now free to keep fiscal representatives, or to change details in the tax number, takind out fiscal representative address and number and providing their foreign address, where they should be receiving all communications from the tax office."

Sorry but little of that makes any sense to me, and appears totally contradictory, I appreciate instructions might take time to filter through, but last Thursday our Financas Office had no knowledge of any changes, neither can I find any reporting of such a fundamental change to current rules and regulations, which I would have expect as it is quite an issue with a lot of Non Residents.
I would disregard your lawyers information until there is an official announcement.
 

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The European Court actually decreed this a couple of years ago. (If you go on to the EU site and search under Portugal Fiscal etc it does come up). But to my knowledge the Portuguese government have not acknowledged it or introduced it.
 

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The date of the judgement was the 5 May 2011 (C267/09) which is the quote I posted.

The judgement appears to only apply to a NON Resident who receives an income from Portugal, not to a NON resident who does NOT receive an income, who will still reguire a representative..

If you are a NON Resident living in the EEA but not the EU you are still required to have a Fiscal Rep.
 

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I would think the most sensible course of action for a Non resident is to continue with a Fiscal Rep until the order has been implemented by Financas, the judgement is not 100% clear as there is no mention as I've said about second home owners.

If you do a search ECJ C267/09 then there are some more in depth articles
 

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"I would think the most sensible course of action for a Non resident is to continue with a Fiscal Rep until the order has been implemented by Financas, the judgement is not 100% clear as there is no mention as I've said about second home owners."

Sorry; but I couldn't agree less. This has always been a state-sponsored scam and it is well past time for it to end.

Does anybody seriously think that the Financas is going to rescind is existing instructions of its own accord, after the Portuguese Government has fought its case up to European Court level? And does anybody imagine that existing Fiscal Reps are going to inform their clients of a court ruling that is likely to put an end to their nice little earners?

The ruling seems to be clear: that, if you are a non-resident property owner receiving taxable Portuguese income, then you are no longer required to have a Fiscal rep. If you aren't among those who rent out their properties, then simply open an interest paying savings account with a Portuguese bank and you will instantly become a receiver of Portuguese taxable income and you can save yourself a lot of money every year.

I fully intend to do that and will happily refer the Financas to ECJ C267/09 if they come knocking. Somehow, I suspect they won't. :clap2:
 

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I only disagree with your statement " state-sponsored scam" there where very good reasons for it's introduction, unfortunately lawyers, accountants and others quickly caught on that they could get away with ridiculous charges before their customers caught on, and moved their business, there are people and companies offering a good service at reasonable prices.

No I'm not one of them and will be quite delighted if family and friends can handle their own affairs.
 

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fiscal representation

Can you please post where this information has come from, our tax office certainly had no knowledge of it on Thurs? nor does the Financas site show anything.

Are you confusing this with the Court saying

" The European Court of Justice held, on 5 May 2011, that Portuguese provisions that oblige non-resident taxpayers who receive Portuguese-source income to appoint a Portuguese fiscal representative are in violation of the EC Treaty's free movement of capital rules, but not those required by the European Economic Area Agreement."

which at the moment wouldn't apply to non residents with a second home but only to non residents who receive an income.
I was told by Tavira council last year that I did not require a fiscal representative and have paid my rates in person on 3 occasions. a neighbour was also told this.
 

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The ruling only came into effect this year maybe Tavira jumped the gun? ratesare payable to Financas not council as UK.

The latest information I have confirmed in the last 2 weeks is that HQ of Financas has informed all tax offices that a EU Resident does not now reguire a Fiscal Representative, are they all aware of it sadly no.

The problem still remains for a non Resident, Financas will not post any communication outside of Portugal, neither will CTT redirect, so unless you've made arrangements to have your post checked you should get online access to your tax account so you can regularly monitor, it might not just be the rates that Financas are after.
 

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fiscal representation

Can you please post where this information has come from, our tax office certainly had no knowledge of it on Thurs? nor does the Financas site show anything.

Are you confusing this with the Court saying

" The European Court of Justice held, on 5 May 2011, that Portuguese provisions that oblige non-resident taxpayers who receive Portuguese-source income to appoint a Portuguese fiscal representative are in violation of the EC Treaty's free movement of capital rules, but not those required by the European Economic Area Agreement."

which at the moment wouldn't apply to non residents with a second home but only to non residents who receive an income.
Recently there was an article in the Portugal news Magazine on fiscal representation and said that many property owners were risking fines of up to 5000 euros for not having fiscal representation. I wrote to the editor questioning the accuracy of the article he sent my letter to the author for comment. I received a reply from someone at a company called Gibro presumably the author saying, Following the european court decision it is not an obligation anymore to have fiscal representation as long as you are a European citizen.
You now have the option of using a fiscal representative or not bearing in mind that payment has to be done within the dead lines and that all documentation is in Portuguese. Tavira council told me last year that I did not need fiscal representaion. Incidentally I do not earn anything in Portugal am taxed in UK and pay all bills such as rates electricity etc direct.
 

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Recently there was an article in the Portugal news Magazine on fiscal representation and said that many property owners were risking fines of up to 5000 euros for not having fiscal representation. I wrote to the editor questioning the accuracy of the article he sent my letter to the author for comment. I received a reply from someone at a company called Gibro presumably the author saying, Following the european court decision it is not an obligation anymore to have fiscal representation as long as you are a European citizen.
You now have the option of using a fiscal representative or not bearing in mind that payment has to be done within the dead lines and that all documentation is in Portuguese. Tavira council told me last year that I did not need fiscal representaion. Incidentally I do not earn anything in Portugal am taxed in UK and pay all bills such as rates electricity etc direct.
Sorry but I'm not quite getting your point, I've updated my original response to question in May because at that time Financas in Portugal hadn't implemented the Court ruling.
As you point out taxes must be paid by certain dates, which is why I recommend that a non residents especially or a resident gets online access to keep a regular check on their Tax a/c, unfortunately you can't pay IMI (rates) by D/D, and I'm not totally certain but I don't think you can pay via internet either.
 

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The European Court actually decreed this a couple of years ago. (If you go on to the EU site and search under Portugal Fiscal etc it does come up). But to my knowledge the Portuguese government have not acknowledged it or introduced it.
:rolleyes:Now theres a surprise ,PT Gov ignore all EU directives (i.e Car Importation & Martric Tax's) that will slow down there Tax Grab
 

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Sorry but Frank Wilson got it wrong, yes the case about Fiscal Representation went to the European Court some time ago but the ruling wasn't given or published till May 2011, and although theres no big banners around proclaiming it all Financas offices have been told.

I wonder though how many of the companies offering Representation have told their clients?

Car Importation & Martric Tax's it's a total myth that Portugal is acting illegally and supposedly being fined because they earn more from taxes than fines. They operate within EU law.
 

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Recently there was an article in the Portugal news Magazine on fiscal representation and said that many property owners were risking fines of up to 5000 euros for not having fiscal representation. I wrote to the editor questioning the accuracy of the article he sent my letter to the author for comment. I received a reply from someone at a company called Gibro presumably the author saying, Following the european court decision it is not an obligation anymore to have fiscal representation as long as you are a European citizen.
You now have the option of using a fiscal representative or not bearing in mind that payment has to be done within the dead lines and that all documentation is in Portuguese. Tavira council told me last year that I did not need fiscal representaion. Incidentally I do not earn anything in Portugal am taxed in UK and pay all bills such as rates electricity etc direct.
Can you remember when the article appeared, dyerduck, because there is a similar article on page 15 of this week's edition, which also has a reference to the Gibro Group at the bottom? For the paper to have published such a inaccurate article once would be bad enough; but I can hardly believe it would do so a second time, when you had already informed it of its error.

I was going to post about this week's Portugal News article and muse aloud about what might have prompted the News to publish it. Lazy journalism, was my first thought, until I remembered that I had emailed the News back in June suggesting that they might wish to publish an article on the ECJ ruling. I didn't get a reply.

Then I thought about the company mentioned at the bottom of the article and wondered whether it might possibly provide Fiscal representation. If it does, then one can only speculate on why it would wish to be associated with an article that will have had the effect of undermining the ECJ ruling giving non-resident property owners the choice of whether or not to employ a Fiscal Rep to manage their tax affairs.

The Portugal News really needs to explain how it has got itself into this position. Does it for example publish sponsored articles, where it simply publishes copy provided by a third party for a fee without bothering to check it for accuracy? I don't know the answer; but if it does, then any article with a reference to a company at the bottom needs to be treated with the greatest caution.
 

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Does it for example publish sponsored articles, where it simply publishes copy provided by a third party for a fee without bothering to check it for accuracy?

probably a lot of info they carry is syndicated
 

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Portugal News correction

I wrote to the Portugal News pointing out the error in their article relating to the claimed legal requirement to employ a Fiscal Rep and they have published a "correction" on their online site.

"Fiscal representative correction
17/9/2011

In an article published on the Business Pages of the 10 September edition of The Portugal News under the heading ‘Fiscal Representation’, it was stated that home owners in Portugal without fiscal representation were liable to fines of up to 5,000 euros.

The article supplied to The Portugal News was based on a news item published slightly before the EU ruling in May 2011 banning the 5,000 euro fine and contrary to what was stated is in the article, is no longer applicable."

The News isn't, however, fully reporting the ECJ ruling. It didn't just ban the 5000 euro fine, it outlawed the requirement for non-resident taxpayers to employ a Fiscal Rep entirely. A cynic might think that the Portugal News - or more likely whoever provides it with advice on this subject - is still trying to frustrate the will of the ECJ by implying that the requirement still exists and it's just the fine that has been banned.

I wonder if the "correction" will appear in this week's edition, which is what most readers will see.
 

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I only disagree with your statement " state-sponsored scam" there where very good reasons for it's introduction, unfortunately lawyers, accountants and others quickly caught on that they could get away with ridiculous charges before their customers caught on, and moved their business, there are people and companies offering a good service at reasonable prices.

No I'm not one of them and will be quite delighted if family and friends can handle their own affairs.
I am with you on this canoe..................it was not a state sponsored scam, it was and still is eminently sensible, if you want to live in more than 1 country then you should have responsibility for your actions in all the countries you live in.

It has, I guess, neatly side stepped a lot of the issues countries such as Spain had/have with their second home-owner migrants/ residents.

Rob
 
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