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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I would like to know what the experts amongst you make of my situation.
I am British and my wife is non-EU/EEA. We were married in UK in 2005 when my wife had ILE. (I am trying to keep the story short here). In 2006 we went to live in Cyprus. Re-entered UK 3 times each time on a EEA FP. Subsequently discovered that because we had been granted a FP the ILE was cancelled.
We finally entered UK on a EEA FP in 2009 and my wife applied for residency on Form EEA2.
This is valid for 5 years so next year she has to apply for PR on form EEA4. Having recently viewed this form I am now somewhat worried.
When we came in on EEA FP and applied for residency I had never heard of Surinder Singh and there was no mention of it then on EEA2. It was not making the news as it is now. However it is now included on both EEA2 and EEA4.
BUT, when we lived in Cyprus I was at first living there and working in the Far East (not paying Cyprus Tax) and then as a Retiree. So, on reflection I guess that I was not exercising Treaty Rights - I know a lot more now than I did 4 years ago!! Also from memory the application form for EEA FP did not ask for evidence of employment.
The EEA2 did not ask the question if we were entering on Surinder Singh but the EEA4 now does which is a worry for me when my wife applies for PR next year - we have no evidence of having worked in Cyprus nor self-employment.
Should she just complete the EEA4 and ignore Section 6 Surinder Singh?
Any suggestions?
Thanks
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Please do not tell me something I already know. If you read my post a little more carefully you will see that we used this route to enter UK 4 years ago and are here with a UK RC.
We need to apply for PR here in UK next year, hence the reason for my concern.
Hopefully Joppa will be around soon.
Cheers.
 

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The crucial question is on what basis you got the last EEA family permit for your wife in Cyprus. You could only obtain it on the basis of your exercising economic treaty rights in another EEA country, which Cyprus became a member in 2004. Surinder Singh judgement was in 1992 and UK amended the rules soon after. So, as far as I can see, you must have obtained the family permit under Surinder Singh (no other options as you are a British citizen) and you were deemed to be working in Cyprus. There is a wide interpretation of what working means so using Cyprus as a base would probably have counted.
I honestly don't think you have much to worry about - your wife will have been here for 5 years under residence card and I don't think they will closely examine your circumstances in Cyprus. Wait until Jrge logs in (though he may be away at the moment).
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Thanks for that Joppa. Each of the 3 EEA FP must have been under the SS Ruling, subject to interpretation by Consulate Staff in Cyprus. Since the EEA FPs were issued over a period of years I would imagine different staff were involved. It would be interesting to know their interpretation of the rules.
Nowadays the EEA Route can be seen as a way around the cost of the Visa route. When my wife applied we had never heard of Surinda Singh, but we should thank him!!
When my wife has been here 5 years under RC I realise that she is entitled to PR and that there is not even any need to apply for PR apart from the fact that without it it would be impossible to re-enter UK.
My only worry really is having no paperwork to back up our EEA4 application under Surinder Singh. My wife will be entitled to remain in UK but if PR is refused it is then the cost and hassle of appeals.
Thanks again and I will now wait for Jrge comments.
Thanks
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Hi Joppa/Jrge,
When the time comes to apply for PR on EEA4 I am considering the following.

Form EEA4 states - The reason for not being able to provide the original document must be explained in a covering letter.
Since we do not have any relevant documents relating to our application under Surinder Singh, as an explanation, I am considering writing something along the lines of

'When my wife first applied for UK residence in 2009 the EEA4 application form did not ask for evidence to support application under Surinder Singh.
(I think I am correct in saying that but am prepared to be contradicted. I am certain we were not asked to provide any evidence when we applied on EEA2 because we didn't have any!!).
As things stand we no longer have any evidence to support this application apart from our Residence Certificates for Cyprus.'

Alternatives are -
a) Form EEA4 states: It is not mandatory to complete this application form. However it will assist in dealing with your application more efficiently if this form is used.
So what if we were to write a letter requesting PR and send with it the required passports, photos, fee, expiring Residence Card, etc. and make no mention of Surinder Singh.
I wonder if anyone has successfully applied for PR not using EEA4.

b) Use EEA4 but totally ignore Section 6.
HO might come back and ask under what rules are we then applying.

What do you think? Any suggestions?


Thanks

Ken
 

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Hi,
Hi Joppa/Jrge,
When the time comes to apply for PR on EEA4 I am considering the following.

Form EEA4 states - The reason for not being able to provide the original document must be explained in a covering letter.
Since we do not have any relevant documents relating to our application under Surinder Singh, as an explanation, I am considering writing something along the lines of

'When my wife first applied for UK residence in 2009 the EEA4 application form did not ask for evidence to support application under Surinder Singh.
(I think I am correct in saying that but am prepared to be contradicted. I am certain we were not asked to provide any evidence when we applied on EEA2 because we didn't have any!!).
As things stand we no longer have any evidence to support this application apart from our Residence Certificates for Cyprus.'

Alternatives are -
a) Form EEA4 states: It is not mandatory to complete this application form. However it will assist in dealing with your application more efficiently if this form is used.
So what if we were to write a letter requesting PR and send with it the required passports, photos, fee, expiring Residence Card, etc. and make no mention of Surinder Singh.
I wonder if anyone has successfully applied for PR not using EEA4.

b) Use EEA4 but totally ignore Section 6.
HO might come back and ask under what rules are we then applying.

What do you think? Any suggestions?


Thanks

Ken
Interesting situation. Your wife was obviously granted both, FP and RC under Surinder Singh, but you never provided any supporting evidence. However, in this job you had, was there a payslip at any point given to you? My point is to disregard any payroll tax but to prove you actually at some point worked for: Acme Inc, from 1Jan93 till 31Dec98.

I am afraid you can't just skip section 6 on EEA4, but you really need to provide as much information as possible and whatever piece you are lacking, needs to be clearly and honesty disclose.

At the end I trust your wife will be granted PR, but no without a fight.

Animo
(Cheers)
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Hi Jrge,
Thanks for that.
Actually I was employed in the Far East and my salary paid into a UK bank account which I had retained. No payslips were ever received (so no evidence of salary) and no tax was paid either in UK nor Cyprus because of the number of days I was out of the country.
What a mess!! Moreover, at the actual time of applying for the 'final' FP (from which RC was gained) I had retired and was no longer in employment.
As I said, what a mess and we had never heard of Surinder Singh so it wasn't as if we were using a 'loophole' even though in the event we did.
Cheers
Ken
 

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Hi,
Hi Jrge,
Thanks for that.
Actually I was employed in the Far East and my salary paid into a UK bank account which I had retained. No payslips were ever received (so no evidence of salary) and no tax was paid either in UK nor Cyprus because of the number of days I was out of the country.
What a mess!! Moreover, at the actual time of applying for the 'final' FP (from which RC was gained) I had retired and was no longer in employment.
As I said, what a mess and we had never heard of Surinder Singh so it wasn't as if we were using a 'loophole' even though in the event we did.
Cheers
Ken
It is indeed a rather grey situation, because back then -4 years ago- the British Government hadn't forced its citizens to look for "loopholes" to sponsor their non-British/EU partner/spouses. And honestly, until this day just a hand full of Entry Clearance Officers are well educated on the Freedom of Movement and it's extend.

I would recommend you gather as much supporting evidence as possible to then apply for your wife's PR. Be prepared for that application to be rejected and for the subsequent appeal, where I am confident a judge will actually listen to your allegations.

Animo
(Cheers)
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Hi Jrge,
Exactly. As you say, back then ECOs were not looking for those couples attempting to exploit a loophole. This morning I commenced my search for documentation. The only 'original' documents I have are our Cyprus ID Cards, Cyprus RCs and the Deeds to the house I then owned. Anything else I find is likely to be a scanned or a 'saved' [on PC] document.

Interestingly this is the email I received from the Consulate in Cyprus when applying for my wife's first FP back in 2007

Dear Mr #####,

Thank you for your email enquiring about an EEA Family Visit visa for your wife.

You need to bring your passports, your wife's Cyprus residence permit, one recent passport cize photograph with white background, marriage certificate and some evidence that you live or work in Cyprus. Question 6.10 on the application form asks more or less how much money will you be taking with you?
We need photocopies of all original supporting documents to attach to the file.

Hope this answers your questions.

The part of that I find interesting is 'evidence that you live or work in Cyprus'. I didn't work there but I did live there and had an RC and deeds to the property I owned there, so obviously that was acceptable (back then).

Will just have to see how the EEA4 application proceeds.

Cheers

Ken
 

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Hi,
Hi Jrge,
Exactly. As you say, back then ECOs were not looking for those couples attempting to exploit a loophole. This morning I commenced my search for documentation. The only 'original' documents I have are our Cyprus ID Cards, Cyprus RCs and the Deeds to the house I then owned. Anything else I find is likely to be a scanned or a 'saved' [on PC] document.

Interestingly this is the email I received from the Consulate in Cyprus when applying for my wife's first FP back in 2007

Dear Mr #####,

Thank you for your email enquiring about an EEA Family Visit visa for your wife.

You need to bring your passports, your wife's Cyprus residence permit, one recent passport cize photograph with white background, marriage certificate and some evidence that you live or work in Cyprus. Question 6.10 on the application form asks more or less how much money will you be taking with you?
We need photocopies of all original supporting documents to attach to the file.

Hope this answers your questions.

The part of that I find interesting is 'evidence that you live or work in Cyprus'. I didn't work there but I did live there and had an RC and deeds to the property I owned there, so obviously that was acceptable (back then).

Will just have to see how the EEA4 application proceeds.

Cheers

Ken
Ken, surprisingly enough the aforementioned email is your wild card and whilst we all know y'all will be inconvenienced, this piece of evidence should take off a huge burden of proof from you.

Please do share or update us on any progress and/or outcome on your wife's application. I do enjoy when a law, rule or legislation is challenged.

Sincere Regards,

Animo
(Cheers)
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
Hi Jrge,

Hi,

Ken, surprisingly enough the aforementioned email is your wild card and whilst we all know y'all will be inconvenienced, this piece of evidence should take off a huge burden of proof from you.

Please do share or update us on any progress and/or outcome on your wife's application. I do enjoy when a law, rule or legislation is challenged.

Sincere Regards,

Animo
(Cheers)
Thanks for all your advice. I've enjoyed our chat. Your final sentence made me smile. Please be assured that I will update you on events next year. Plenty of prep time for me.
One final question. With the copy of the email as my ammunition how would you suggest I approach Section 6 [SS]. It asks whether I was working or self employed. Should I simply make a note to see attached explanation where I will refer to work overseas and the attached email.
Yours suggestions would be most helpful.

Cheers

Ken
 

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Hi,
Hi Jrge,
Thanks for all your advice. I've enjoyed our chat. Your final sentence made me smile. Please be assured that I will update you on events next year. Plenty of prep time for me.
One final question. With the copy of the email as my ammunition how would you suggest I approach Section 6 [SS]. It asks whether I was working or self employed. Should I simply make a note to see attached explanation where I will refer to work overseas and the attached email.
Yours suggestions would be most helpful.

Cheers

Ken
Ken, I have pretty much indeed enjoyed this informal chat, and I'm glad that my day to day job at least makes someone smile. (Some Governments, Judges and the CEO's of the companies we purchase don't see it that way :D)

Your approach on how to support your wife's application seems logical and makes sense.

Animo
(Cheers)
 
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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
Hi,

Ken, I have pretty much indeed enjoyed this informal chat, and I'm glad that my day to day job at least makes someone smile. (Some Governments, Judges and the CEO's of the companies we purchase don't see it that way :D)

Your approach on how to support your wife's application seems logical and makes sense.

Animo
(Cheers)
Hi,
It is some time since we last communicated. With the revision last year of the EEA4 application form I thought all my worries were over. It simply asked if my wife had entered UK on a family visit visa and a simple tick in the box would have sufficed.
However, the situation has taken a backward step with the introduction in January 2015 of the EEA(PR) with it's 121 pages!
This makes our situation even more difficult because it is now evn asking about our integration into Cypriot society. None of which I can show.
We are visiting Indonesia next month and the plan was to apply for PR on our return. However, the EEA2 does not expire until August so we might delay for a short while to see if any amendments are made to the 121 page document.
I had considered ignoring the actual form and applying by letter. Being already in possession of EEA2 I would have thought that PR should more or less be automatic as long as residency rules etc were abided by.

Your thoughts on a submission by letter, enclosing relevant documents etc.?

Best
Ken
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
The journey has ended! We applied for PR in May this year using an older version of EEA4. Biometrics completed the same month and PR Card issued on 29 Sept endorsed 'Family member of EU Citizen.
What a relief.

Best wishes to all.
 
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