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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Maybe a sensitive subect this, but I have to ask seeing as the advice and information you guys have offered me has been absolutely invaluable.
In a nutshell, my Dad is thinking of not paying what he owes the bank's overdraft (he is NOT a crook but has certain personal reasons , the bank bascially foreclosed on his business without warning after 30 succesfull years of honest trading, i guess due to the current economic climate) If he does (though there is a big chance he WILL actually pay the bank back in full ),do that he will be leaving the UK owing the bank at least 30k after he pays what he actually can to them. A large amount by anyone's standards
What happens if he does that ? Will they be able to trace him and get the money/assets off him in Spain ? Or will it just be a UK issue ? I know he would not be able to return to the UK for 5 years if he did so etc.
I am not asking anyone to condone this, just wondered if anyone knew what would happen to him if he chose this route. I don't know whom else to ask as I fear he may just do it anyway without being informed first.
Many thanks
Mark
 

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Maybe a sensitive subect this, but I have to ask seeing as the advice and information you guys have offered me has been absolutely invaluable.
In a nutshell, my Dad is thinking of not paying what he owes the bank's overdraft (he is NOT a crook but has certain personal reasons , the bank bascially foreclosed on his business without warning after 30 succesfull years of honest trading, i guess due to the current economic climate) If he does (though there is a big chance he WILL actually pay the bank back in full ),do that he will be leaving the UK owing the bank at least 30k after he pays what he actually can to them. A large amount by anyone's standards
What happens if he does that ? Will they be able to trace him and get the money/assets off him in Spain ? Or will it just be a UK issue ? I know he would not be able to return to the UK for 5 years if he did so etc.
I am not asking anyone to condone this, just wondered if anyone knew what would happen to him if he chose this route. I don't know whom else to ask as I fear he may just do it anyway without being informed first.
Many thanks
Mark
Hi Mark

A sensitive subject Im sure and one that no doubt you had difficulty in raising on here given that its so personal to you and your family.

Be warned that there is little chance if him being able to walk away and not be found! I know of people who have tried that with much smaller amounts than you are talking and the banks didnt give up! Also people like the tax authorities etc in the UK have links and agreements with the authorities here so they can get the Spanish tax authorities to come after you for money owed in the UK.

The mortgage issue here for example has resulted in the banks having much closer links with the UK authorities in order to collect outstanding debts from people who have "run" back to the UK - in addition they can now go after your UK assets in addition to your Spanish ones.

I would therefore assume that the reverse is true, and that there are ways of UK banks, lenders etc following you to Spain to collect what is owed.

Bear in mind that even though this may take time - that will be reflected in penalties, fines or interest accrued .... so he could end up with an even bigger debt.

Im no expert Mark but thats my opinion on it ...

Sue :ranger:
 

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I know someone who did a runner on his mortgage (negative equity) among other things when they emigrated to OZ

he did visit the UK a couple of years later with no problems

I totally don't condone what he did - & not just because he owed me money:mad:

it must be fifteen years ago now

it would be interesting to see what would happen in the unlikely event that he decided to return to the UK to live
 

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I know someone who did a runner on his mortgage (negative equity) among other things when they emigrated to OZ

he did visit the UK a couple of years later with no problems

I totally don't condone what he did - & not just because he owed me money:mad:

it must be fifteen years ago now

it would be interesting to see what would happen in the unlikely event that he decided to return to the UK to live
Hi X

I think that the stronger links between Countries now (particularly EU Countries) has made it more difficult to walk away from such debts. I have no doubt there are some people who "get away with it" ... but its a huge risk to take ... irrespective of whether you think its right or wrong in the first place.

Sue :rolleyes:
 

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I think I am right in saying -Sue may know -that a device known as a European Payment Order (EPO) came into force on January 1st 2008. This enables an order for the repayment of a UK incurred debt in any EU country without the necessity of going through a UK court to obtain a CCJ which previously could not be done in the debtor's absence.
If successful,the bank will pass the debt recovery to a specialist international debt recovery agency who will track the debtor and extract payment using the EPO. These agencies are usually but not always successful in doing so. The debtor will be blacklisted in the UK and find it difficult to open even an offshore account with a UK bank as references have to be given. Opening an account with a Spanish bank may be easier but then the Spanish tax and legal authorities will be able to liase with an EPO if such is obtained.
I hasten to add that I do not know this from personal experience but through attendance at Law Conferences etc. I have mixed feelings about people who 'do a runner'. On the one hand, bad luck is bad luck and Heaven knows banks take enough in charges, interest etc. from businesses and individuals. But costs are then passed on to other 'innocent' clients.
Can your father not take advice about applying for an IVA? Or even declaring himself bankrupt? Pension income is usually exempt from debt recovery.
 

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I also think -but not sure -that after a period of six years a UK debt cannot be pursued. Unless the debt is to a UK Government Agency, there is no likelihood of anyone being 'barred' from entering or leaving the UK. Commercial debt is essentially a civil matter.
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Many many thanks for all your replies . I appreciate your sound advice and non judgemental words. I doubt he will actually leave the UK with such a large debt as having such a huge amount owed would be frightening and not wise for anyone I guess.
Many best wishes
Mark
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Hi.
It was a business overdraft. the company DID go bankrupt but my dad personally guaranteed it so now they're coming after him. Between 40% and 60% of it will be oayed back from the sale of the business and its debtors payments but he will still owe at least 30k
Poor man worked since he was 15, 7 days a week all his life, paid his taxes etc to be ruined by the bloodybank! He can't even get pension credits or the dole !!!
Mark
 

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I doubt very much he would have any problems if he "did a runner".
Dont be too sure ;) we had heard a lot of stories recently where people have been "contacted" out of the blue by people / establishments they owe money to in the UK.

Of course its down to the individual at the end of the day to weigh up the risks .... Im a cowardy custard so it wouldnt do for me :D
 

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I doubt very much he would have any problems if he "did a runner".
Well, apart from being blacklisted, having bank accounts and credit cards frozen, possibly.;)
And if you have no money at the end of the day you can't pay what you don't have.
But as I suggested and another poster has also mentioned, bankruptcy or an IVA is an honourable course these days.
Some overdraft support sgreements aren't worth the paper they're written on , though. At least, that's what our friendly business bank manager told us when we were in business. Just a formality. Especially if the collateral isn't specified.
 

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I doubt very much he would have any problems if he "did a runner".
Oh I think he would. In Spain anyway. I hadnt even done a runner (honest, guvnor), and I was chased by a debt agency in the UK for a small overdraft. I just hadnt realised that the bank didnt know where I was. I had sent them a letter telling them I had moved from one address in Spain to another address in Spain, and as i barely used the account and rarely got bank statements before then, I wasnt aware of any urgency to pay it all back. I hadnt even changed phone numbers or email so the bank could have got hold of me. But they didnt bother, they passed it to an agency who were not nasty but very snotty, and totally disbelieved me.

Ironically, another bank whom I had written to about the change of address, had received my letter and sent me a letter to my new address saying they didnt think my signature was correct, so wouldnt send me any account information to my new address! :rolleyes: Instead, they wanted me to fill in a form and take it to my local branch (UK!) Needless to say, that was the end of them!
 

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Maybe a sensitive subect this, but I have to ask seeing as the advice and information you guys have offered me has been absolutely invaluable.
In a nutshell, my Dad is thinking of not paying what he owes the bank's overdraft (he is NOT a crook but has certain personal reasons , the bank bascially foreclosed on his business without warning after 30 succesfull years of honest trading, i guess due to the current economic climate) If he does (though there is a big chance he WILL actually pay the bank back in full ),do that he will be leaving the UK owing the bank at least 30k after he pays what he actually can to them. A large amount by anyone's standards
What happens if he does that ? Will they be able to trace him and get the money/assets off him in Spain ? Or will it just be a UK issue ? I know he would not be able to return to the UK for 5 years if he did so etc.
I am not asking anyone to condone this, just wondered if anyone knew what would happen to him if he chose this route. I don't know whom else to ask as I fear he may just do it anyway without being informed first.
Many thanks
Mark

Hi Mark,
Your Dad’s big problem would be if the debt is sold. £30K of debt is a fairly tradeable commodity. This being the case, he could end up owing the money to whomever bought it.

There was a programme on Spanish TV recently questioning the practices of the companies who chase people in debt in Spain (working for some big name Banks and Cajas), known as the list of Morosos, including hounding to death at work, home and play spaces – followed by rather more serious valed threats. These to people who had nothing to pay back with but whom the collectors were trying to persuade to find friends, relatives or whomever that did have something to pay back with…… you get the picture, not nize.

If I had to make the choice, I might think about risking a 2 or 3k owed to some credit card company, and then probably pay it or make a 50P a week deal or some such, but on £30K I wouldn’t – there are just too many nasty options available to those who have the commodity to deal with. Dealing with it via a legal insolvency route is, in my opinion, the safest route.

Xose
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
Wise words from Xose again !

Thanks to you all for such informative replies. You clever lot. I am trying to persuade him NOT to leave the debt owing.

Many thanks

Mark
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
Thanks for your reply mrypg9 ! You know, it's odd you should say that cos when our bank manager found out my dad's company was going bankrupt he said to my dad in a whisper re the overdraft, "I didn't say this but just walk away", wonder what he meant by that. If he went for personal bankrupcy or an IVA don't they take his assets etc from him ? The sale of their house is funding the move to Spain.
Thanks
Mark
 
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Three questions- Why Spain? Although for many leaving the UK under more regular circumstances it has more positives than negatives in the situation you describe it may be worth considering other locations - one plan is that he could go to Panama having faked his disappearance while out canoeing...... I am sure that would be easy. - But seriously what about Brazil, Argentina, Thailand etc.... it may be easier to disappear there and the cost of living far less.

Regarding cost of living - how would your father survive here in Spain, does he speak Spanish - almost essential for a job, if he can't pay off 30 k in the UK how will he live here? The cost of living is not far off the UK but the sunshines a lot more so people don't tend to pay too much attention to that, in other places mentioned above any money could keep you going for 5 times longer.

If your father is not a crook and an honest chap would he be able to continue life as before without either be consumed by either guilt or worry about being caught.

Just thinking aloud... not condoning.

Best of luck with whatever you decide. It appears very unfair.
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
Thanks for your reply, the fake death thing actually made him and I laugh. Though I HAVE advised against any photos of them taken by estate agents on any balconies lol!!

He likes Spain and has been there alot in the past, and whilst he can't speak Spanish I can and would be living with them for a while (God help me) to settle them in, my Mum's quite good at languages.

They tried to emigrate further afield a few years ago before any of this debt issue occured, but as we have no family, job sponsorhips in Oz, USA or Canada ' getting in 'would be very difficult, you can't even retire to Canada even if you are 'rich' !!Although apparently you CAN emigrate there if you are prepared to buy a company and employ 10 people full time (not something retiring Brits would want to do much I suppose)

As for Thailand etc, they are not viable, they're too far flung (they are NOT good with air travel) and life there would be too dissimilar to life here for them (ie Europe) shame though, as you said some pf those places ARE cheap and one can easily dissapear there.
He has private pensions and some money to live out the rest of his days in relative comfort and whilst he COULD pay the debt off in one go, it would leave him with very little left. Oh well, back to the drawing board. he can't go personaly bankrupt or get an IVA because he has too many assets ie the house, which he is selling to fund his retirment and pay the bank anyway.
Mark
 

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Thanks for your reply mrypg9 ! You know, it's odd you should say that cos when our bank manager found out my dad's company was going bankrupt he said to my dad in a whisper re the overdraft, "I didn't say this but just walk away", wonder what he meant by that. If he went for personal bankrupcy or an IVA don't they take his assets etc from him ? The sale of their house is funding the move to Spain.
Thanks
Mark
All debts are 'sold' by banks, credit card companies etc. to Debt Collection Agencies. These vary in their approach from the downright nasty and threatening (highly illegal) to the merely persistent. But in order to enforce a debt, any debt, a judgment MUST be obtained against you.
As for guaranteeing the business loan -£30k is actually very small potatoes in the debt world!!! In order to take your dad's house the bank would have to get a charge against it via a County Court Judgment. If the house sale is already underway it will be too late to get this order. The bank could ask for the sale money to be taken from him, though.
Basically, the Bank can take action against him. Whether they would or not, on an unsecured debt, I can't say.
What is true though is that it's not that easy to just 'do a runner' if you want to stay within the 'respectable' finance system. U.K. Banks, both on and off-shore,now require references. In order to open an offshore account with a UK bank, I had to provide personal details,certified copy of passport, proof of address,six months' bank statements and documented proof of where my income comes from, plus reference. The Bank you dad owes to may refer his debt to a Credit Reference Agency such as Experian, which amounts to a blacklisting for any future accounts of any kind. I can't say whether you could be traced if you took money to a Spanish account as there must be Data Protection Laws (Sue?) but Debt Collection Agencies operate across national borders.
Think of the cost of recovering £30k, though. It might not be worth their time and effort to chase your dad across Europe.
But it might.
 
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