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As someone who covered the Central American wars in the '80s and heard of other Mexican army "victories," I was suspicious of these claims from the first, and now:

Did the Mexican Army Just Massacre 42 People? - The Daily Beast

"The lopsided body count aroused suspicion, as did the fact that all the civilians at the ranch, with the exception of three taken into custody, were killed and none was wounded."

I believe battle statistics show about 10 soldiers get wounded for everyone killed.
 

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As someone who covered the Central American wars in the '80s and heard of other Mexican army "victories," I was suspicious of these claims from the first, and now:

Did the Mexican Army Just Massacre 42 People? - The Daily Beast

"The lopsided body count aroused suspicion, as did the fact that all the civilians at the ranch, with the exception of three taken into custody, were killed and none was wounded."

I believe battle statistics show about 10 soldiers get wounded for everyone killed.


¿En qué consistió la ley de fugas?

Google Translation:


"What was the law of escape?

Escape Act was passed in 1921 in an attempt to tighten the legislation in order to curb social tension. Economic problems (Crisis of 1919) and the influence of the revolution Bolshevik, will cause an effervescence of the labor movement in recent years. In the case of Andalusia Bolshevik triennium (1918- 1920) and the emergence of gangsterism in Barcelona (1919-1923). Political instability caused by the decomposition of the dynastic parties. It did not help to improve the situation. The law gives the OK to the police to shoot kill if a prisoner try to escape. Under this premise they are to produce numerous murders of trade unionists who were killed, with subsequent justification to the public opinion, that he intended to escape."

La Historia. Agenda Cultural: ¿En qué consistió la ley de fugas?

"Law de Fugas [escape] in Mexico

Specifically at the time of Porfirio Diaz, the Law of Escape as repressive method was used to eliminate a group of people who revolted against the president, when there were problems in Veracruz, where Luis Mier y Teran was governor of the state, a telegram was known he was sent by President Porfirio Diaz, saying: "Kill them hot" in the sense that the prisoners would escape and facilities will use the escape attempt as a pretext to shoot."

Ley de fugas - Wikipedia, la enciclopedia libre
 

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Kill them hot?????

Best translation would be "Kill them on the spot"
Matenlos en caliente would be kill them right there, right now
 

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If those who were killed were as identified, members of one of the narco-terrorist organizations .. then I will shed no tears for their demise. If there were deaths of soldiers which have not been reported, I express my sympathy for their losses to their family and friends. The nation is engaged in a war with many "fronts." The battlefields are fluid; ever changing. I think too many expats, in the media or just regular folks, fail to understand the extent of the war and some apply simplistic explanations/accusations drawn from unrelated events occurring in other countries, in other time periods and with different underlying facts.
 

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If those who were killed were as identified, members of one of the narco-terrorist organizations .. then I will shed no tears for their demise.
I can see why one would feel that way, but on the other hand it can be deplored as a way of flouting due process and the rule of law. A way of implementing a de facto death penalty in a country that abjures it de jure. And it’s not the citizen who got to decide this, but whoever made the policy and handed down the orders.
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
I can see why one would feel that way, but on the other hand it can be deplored as a way of flouting due process and the rule of law. A way of implementing a de facto death penalty in a country that abjures it de jure. And it’s not the citizen who got to decide this, but whoever made the policy and handed down the orders.
Very true, plus their numbers of 42 dead are eerily similar to the 43 students who "disappeared" last year in a similar smelly fog of war, now a cause célèbre across Mexico.

We have near daily protests and marches in Mexico City over them, or at least, that is what the leftists say, as they try to mess up the June 7 elections.

It appears they are "disappeared" forever, never an accounting ... or well, it'll be disclosed for the grand kids of present day Mexicans.
 

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Mexico is fighting a war, civil justice rules shouldn't be expected to come into play and apply on the battlefield. I choose to express concern more so for honest people whose lives have been so negatively impacted by the terrorists than I do for the terrorists and I believe my sentiments are shared by a vast majority of Mexicans. We don't know what really happened in this particular altercation, and maybe never will.
 

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I agree that we will never know for sure about what happened.
I do not share the idea of Mexico being at war, as a manner of speaking its ok, but we are not at war.
We are, as much as many, or most of the Countries, struggling against criminals, drug dealers in this case.
Again, most Countries are AT war with some others (Irak, Etc ), some do have terrorist threats and attacks (9/11, Boston Marathon, Europe in various places) as well as very very active underground militia. Some even have to openly make negotiations with them (FARC)
I think we should be thriving for eliminating drug consumers and that would greatly take care of the problem
 

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It is a rough struggle when you need military actions, repeatedly, no? How do we eliminate those drug consumers? Seems like a vicious circle to me. No drugs, no buying. No demand, no drugs. How? Easier said than done, no?
 
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"AT War" in the U.S. used to mean that Congress targeted specific enemy countries and openly declared WAR. Somehow, the definition slipped and slid around so that the latest is a "War on Terror", which is being used for all our latest military adventures overseas, lots of civilian collateral damage and a few blatant assassinations. It can apparently mean anything at all. Might as well call it a "War on Evil".

Maybe the Mexicans are taking a page from their NOB book. Maybe the Powers that Be in Mexico are fighting another "War on Terror" and that covers one hell of a lot of territory, si?

I believe that the current administration declared a war on information as well this time, and reportage of incidents, if there is any coverage at all, is anything but transparent, so I'll just say: What do we really know about this, anyway?? The top layer of the matter, maybe.
 

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I can see why one would feel that way, but on the other hand it can be deplored as a way of flouting due process and the rule of law. A way of implementing a de facto death penalty in a country that abjures it de jure. And it’s not the citizen who got to decide this, but whoever made the policy and handed down the orders.
Well said, maesonna:

I have seen this "rule of law" in my native state of Alabama, Europe, East Africa, India and many other places. There is something to be said for "due process". Lynchings of supposed miscreants - especially among 40 or more people - without due process, leaves speculation as to who deserved to die and who just inadvertently met with a bullet up his/her ass and no ability to defend him/her self bacause he/she was suddenly worm food and, as is common in Mexico as well as the United States, defenders of civil liberties are as quiet as mice fleeing thorugh that mouse hole. I wonder what it must be like to live in Chicago where street crime is rampánt among the poor. Why not look at the warts elsewhere? Very convenient to discover the moles on another´s butt without observing your own.
 

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Tell me why the massacre of 42 people by whomever is not cogent to Mexico events and ccomments reassigned to that miserable chat fórum that nobody reads in earnest? . Why is speculation on human massacres assdgned "chat room" status? As it happens coicidentally. a couple of weeks before the diisappearance of the 42 students in Iguala, I drove through there on my way from Acapulco to Taxco as we returned from the Chiapas Highlands to Lake Chapala and drove within a few kiometers of that rural teachers´college where those students vaniished. months ago without a trace This is not relevant to living in Mexico?
 

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I think most members are reading that thread, no matter where it's been placed. If a topic is interesting to most members, they'll go there. Can't keep 'em away with a stick.

The people who volunteer their time to moderate this forum are doing a PITA job, especially when somebody starts a nitpicking criticism session of how they are doing it. Without their efforts, there wouldn't BE a platform for anyone to voice their opinions.
 

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I think maybe because these questions about what is happening in Mexico keep getting derailed by some of us who keep posting and insisting that this behavior in Mexico is actually worse in other countries. Thus, the original post gets lost in the comments of those who resent any negative comments about Mexico.
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
Mexico is fighting a war, civil justice rules shouldn't be expected to come into play and apply on the battlefield. I choose to express concern more so for honest people whose lives have been so negatively impacted by the terrorists than I do for the terrorists and I believe my sentiments are shared by a vast majority of Mexicans. We don't know what really happened in this particular altercation, and maybe never will.
Ah, t'were only so simple. If only this were a struggle, or "war," between nefarious drug smugglers and valiant government soldiers and police. It's not that simple in Mexico. Remember, the mayor and the wife of the town where those 43 students disappeared have been accused of being involved with one of the drug clans of that state. Has the police, army and civilian gov't response been so lame because some sectors have been involved, in the pay of, the same cartels employing the mayor? Or rival drug families? I remember a while back, a general was overseeing an army operation in a northern state - it turns out he was protecting the drug corridor of a cartel -- when a state or federal police operation collided with the army operation and a shootout occurred. It turned out that the police operation was underway to protect yet another cartel.

I was working in Mexico, doing a story on the country's drug fight, when the very highest gov't official in charge of the anti-drug campaign, was himself carted off to jail and accused of protecting some of the very families he was supposedly hunting down. One weekend I accompanied him on an operation in Guerrero where we swooped in in helicopters on isolated marijuana fields, where I photographed as soldiers ripped up the plants and burned them. While they were actually destroying valuable crops, it turns out they were probably in the fields of drug families he was not paid to protect.

I attended a few operations put on the federal govt, attended by local and international prensa, where they gathered dozens of bales of captured marijuana that were burned publicly as the TV cameras rolled. Yes, we tried to get as close as possible to "verify" that it was indeed pot going up in smoke, putting cloths over our noses to avoid breathing in the evil weed. But of course, that did nothing to put a dent in the flow northward.

As the missing students demonstrate, high circles of Mexican law enforcement and political still are closely involved in the trade. The stat I always remember is when the DEA trapped a gang leader at an airport, in the company of local cops to arrest him, the drug guy gave the head cop in cash what equalled 45 years of the cop's salary, just to be able to get on the plane and leave the DEA agents fuming in his wake.

I have no idea what happened last weekend that left 42 alleged drug traffickers dead, but if this was a legitimate operation, the key objective would be to gather intelligence about higher-ups. right? One would think. That would mean capturing as many of the traffickers alive for intensive interrogation. Using "ley fuga," however, eliminates that avenue, whether it destroys any links those guys knew about, or was intended to send a terror message to a rival gang. Or, it could've been an angry army still upset over a cartel shooting down one of their choppers last month. I don't know.
 

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Mexico is fighting a war, civil justice rules shouldn't be expected to come into play and apply on the battlefield. I choose to express concern more so for honest people whose lives have been so negatively impacted by the terrorists than I do for the terrorists and I believe my sentiments are shared by a vast majority of Mexicans. We don't know what really happened in this particular altercation, and maybe never will.
I'm actually a bit surprised, Longford, that you aren't standing up more for the rule of law and due process. I get the gut, emotional reaction towards those involved in narcotraffic and the misery that group of criminals has wrought on Mexico, but I also strongly believe due process and the state adhering to rule of law are the bedrock of a civil society. Making exceptions because we have no sympathy for the persons targeted will erode those foundations.

Summary execution by the state is a slippery slope, indeed.
 

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I have no idea what happened last weekend that left 42 alleged drug traffickers dead, but if this was a legitimate operation, the key objective would be to gather intelligence about higher-ups. right? One would think. That would mean capturing as many of the traffickers alive for intensive interrogation. Using "ley fuga," however, eliminates that avenue, whether it destroys any links those guys knew about, or was intended to send a terror message to a rival gang. Or, it could've been an angry army still upset over a cartel shooting down one of their choppers last month. I don't know.

This is incongruous thinking. I live in thqt región and can assure you no-one accused those rural trachers´college of being "drug traffickers". Where did you come up with such an assumption? By the way, the cartel shootdown of the army helicopter took place long after the disappearance of the Guerrero students and the Guerrero students had ,no affiliation woth cartel gangs What the hell is your news source?

This a highly irrespónsible posting. It is indefensible.
 

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The Rule of Law, has never existed in Mexico. Hard to stand up for something that the people have never experienced. :(
 

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Very true, plus their numbers of 42 dead are eerily similar to the 43 students who "disappeared" last year in a similar smelly fog of war, now a cause célèbre across Mexico.

We have near daily protests and marches in Mexico City over them, or at least, that is what the leftists say, as they try to mess up the June 7 elections.

It appears they are "disappeared" forever, never an accounting ... or well, it'll be disclosed for the grand kids of present day Mexicans.
We will never know any more about that "43", nor this "43" either. Surely you think that this "43" was just coincidental to the other, but, we will never know. :(
 
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