I'm being angsty and analytical again, in trying to better comprehend french culture and practices, in the aim of improving relational exchanges and being more efficient.
I realize it is probably too deep for some - if so, I won't be offended if you ignore it!
I just look for places where I can gather reflections on certain subjects from others who might be similarly drawn to such activities.
I struggle a lot with the french approach to conflict. It often seems to me to be a product of my american conditioning - after all, they often characterize us Americans as being "too puritan" or morally rigid. I saw the other day the expression "trop scrupuleux" as social disfunction. It was thought provoking -can a person have too many scruples?
Be too concerned with ethics and morals? Is there a disfunction with being concerned about our effect and impact upon others?
It seems to me that the french around me identify rather easily with their negative emotions like anger - yelling out, "Ca va pas? Imbecile!" is more easily accepted as appropriate than the way I was conditioned to respond to negative emotions.
Calmly sitting down with the person and saying, "When you do that, I feel angry, because I feel like you are not respecting me. Is that accurate? " -then listening to them describe what they feel and think (calmly), is what I was taught to do and what was always done with me. The aim being to understand each other and find a more mutually respectful and beneficial way of acting with each other.
Every time I make such an attempt with a french person, they get very hostile, as if my dialogue is even more offensive and aggressive than if I had just yelled out an insult instead.
The only other acceptable approach seem to be passive aggressivity. Using sarcasm and irony to criticize or insult, "forgetting" to do things asked of you, or otherwise claiming kind intent behind ultimately damaging actions. All ways of avoiding accountability.
I have actually had people counsel me to act in such ways, describing it as the art of subtility, instead of what we call it - passive aggressivity (a symptom of mental illness in our culture).
I've asked french people if they know of the term "passive aggressive" and so far no one has answered in the affirmative. I once found a french definition which simply described it as a "refusal to submit to authority". That surely can be the case if one is being passive aggressive with an authority figure, but it does not refer to interactions between people of equal status.
So... being passive aggressive seems to be seen as the smart persons way of attacking another without suffering consequences. It has a positive value. Perhaps this was born from the French Resistance in WW2??
I don't know. But I find myself running up against a deep blockage here- both with the identification with negative emotions (being your anger), and with the sneaky play of passive aggressivity (acting it out but denying so).
I can fall into passive aggressivity as easily enough as anyone else, and often end up doing so when I attempts at open dialogue fail. But I don't like myself then, and will tend to fall into a morose state, unable to escape my internal self condemnation. This is read in my body language and I probably seem depressed to others. That won't help anything.
But I also can't seem to just yell at others in spontaneous irrational outbursts. I think there is such a strong early conditioning in me I can't do it even if I try. I once had a woman in a grocery store walk by me and kick me on purpose, (probably because her husband was checking me out, and I was just as uncomfortable with that as she was) and the closest I got to a spontaneous reaction was to go up to her and ask, "Why did you kick me?" - which of course was followed with a smirk and claim she did no such thing. End of exchange.
A coworker who was prone to being hostile towards others when stressed (who had actually forced others to quit, after breaking into sobs repeatedly faced with her attacks), I once tried to talk to the american way- "When you speak to me that way, and call me a "conne", I feel like you don't respect me, and I have trouble hearing what it is you are actually asking from me. I feel troubled and that gets in the way of comprehension for me. Could you maybe phrase things differently, so I can better understand and do what you are asking of me?"
It resulted in her going ballistic and basically running off yelling that I am pissing her off. (with no improvement in our relationship). It even might have been a factor in some rather sneaky attempts to destroy my work later.
Is my way of approaching relational conflicts really typically american? Bev? Where you raised this way?
I was raised by a psychologist and a psychoanalyst/professor of philosophy - I sometimes wonder if my habits are more a result of a specific "different" education, or really part of our collective values as Americans.
I do not believe in any "universal" ethics or morals; I am not religious at all. I don't believe my way is "better" than any other, and I do prescribe to the idea "When in Rome, do as the Romans do."
I do believe in caring about ones impact and effect upon others, and if your attempts to do so are having a negative effect, then- change them.
But some behaviors, I am finding, are impossible to change, even with a lot of effort!
Have you guys found a different sort of behavior on the part of french people around you? I wonder also if it is a matter of local customs and values- like some attitudes I have found can be chalked up to being a rural area rather than urban.
I realize it is probably too deep for some - if so, I won't be offended if you ignore it!
I just look for places where I can gather reflections on certain subjects from others who might be similarly drawn to such activities.
I struggle a lot with the french approach to conflict. It often seems to me to be a product of my american conditioning - after all, they often characterize us Americans as being "too puritan" or morally rigid. I saw the other day the expression "trop scrupuleux" as social disfunction. It was thought provoking -can a person have too many scruples?
Be too concerned with ethics and morals? Is there a disfunction with being concerned about our effect and impact upon others?
It seems to me that the french around me identify rather easily with their negative emotions like anger - yelling out, "Ca va pas? Imbecile!" is more easily accepted as appropriate than the way I was conditioned to respond to negative emotions.
Calmly sitting down with the person and saying, "When you do that, I feel angry, because I feel like you are not respecting me. Is that accurate? " -then listening to them describe what they feel and think (calmly), is what I was taught to do and what was always done with me. The aim being to understand each other and find a more mutually respectful and beneficial way of acting with each other.
Every time I make such an attempt with a french person, they get very hostile, as if my dialogue is even more offensive and aggressive than if I had just yelled out an insult instead.
The only other acceptable approach seem to be passive aggressivity. Using sarcasm and irony to criticize or insult, "forgetting" to do things asked of you, or otherwise claiming kind intent behind ultimately damaging actions. All ways of avoiding accountability.
I have actually had people counsel me to act in such ways, describing it as the art of subtility, instead of what we call it - passive aggressivity (a symptom of mental illness in our culture).
I've asked french people if they know of the term "passive aggressive" and so far no one has answered in the affirmative. I once found a french definition which simply described it as a "refusal to submit to authority". That surely can be the case if one is being passive aggressive with an authority figure, but it does not refer to interactions between people of equal status.
So... being passive aggressive seems to be seen as the smart persons way of attacking another without suffering consequences. It has a positive value. Perhaps this was born from the French Resistance in WW2??
I don't know. But I find myself running up against a deep blockage here- both with the identification with negative emotions (being your anger), and with the sneaky play of passive aggressivity (acting it out but denying so).
I can fall into passive aggressivity as easily enough as anyone else, and often end up doing so when I attempts at open dialogue fail. But I don't like myself then, and will tend to fall into a morose state, unable to escape my internal self condemnation. This is read in my body language and I probably seem depressed to others. That won't help anything.
But I also can't seem to just yell at others in spontaneous irrational outbursts. I think there is such a strong early conditioning in me I can't do it even if I try. I once had a woman in a grocery store walk by me and kick me on purpose, (probably because her husband was checking me out, and I was just as uncomfortable with that as she was) and the closest I got to a spontaneous reaction was to go up to her and ask, "Why did you kick me?" - which of course was followed with a smirk and claim she did no such thing. End of exchange.
A coworker who was prone to being hostile towards others when stressed (who had actually forced others to quit, after breaking into sobs repeatedly faced with her attacks), I once tried to talk to the american way- "When you speak to me that way, and call me a "conne", I feel like you don't respect me, and I have trouble hearing what it is you are actually asking from me. I feel troubled and that gets in the way of comprehension for me. Could you maybe phrase things differently, so I can better understand and do what you are asking of me?"
It resulted in her going ballistic and basically running off yelling that I am pissing her off. (with no improvement in our relationship). It even might have been a factor in some rather sneaky attempts to destroy my work later.
Is my way of approaching relational conflicts really typically american? Bev? Where you raised this way?
I was raised by a psychologist and a psychoanalyst/professor of philosophy - I sometimes wonder if my habits are more a result of a specific "different" education, or really part of our collective values as Americans.
I do not believe in any "universal" ethics or morals; I am not religious at all. I don't believe my way is "better" than any other, and I do prescribe to the idea "When in Rome, do as the Romans do."
I do believe in caring about ones impact and effect upon others, and if your attempts to do so are having a negative effect, then- change them.
But some behaviors, I am finding, are impossible to change, even with a lot of effort!
Have you guys found a different sort of behavior on the part of french people around you? I wonder also if it is a matter of local customs and values- like some attitudes I have found can be chalked up to being a rural area rather than urban.
