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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Sorry about this, but here's another kick in the stomach for the good life in Spain. It was announced a few days ago. I thought it might go away if I ignored, but it hasn't
Classroom sizes to rise by 20 percent as the education cuts are brought in

He said that more money or complements were not available, and if a teacher was off-sick for less than 10 days, the institute or school will have to absorb that cost. The use of ‘interino’ professors trying to break into the profession will be cut.
He also suggests that not all centres be obliged to offer all the modules in the Bachillerato.
 

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Sorry about this, but here's another kick in the stomach for the good life in Spain. It was announced a few days ago. I thought it might go away if I ignored, but it hasn't
Classroom sizes to rise by 20 percent as the education cuts are brought in

He said that more money or complements were not available, and if a teacher was off-sick for less than 10 days, the institute or school will have to absorb that cost. The use of ‘interino’ professors trying to break into the profession will be cut.
He also suggests that not all centres be obliged to offer all the modules in the Bachillerato.
I saw this on the news, too :(

& have to admit that I'm doing a bit of 'ignoring the bad news', too - but there comes a point when it won't go away -such as when the school your kids go to statrts making the cuts :(
 

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Dear Friends, it is very, very sad, but, times are hard and going to get even harder. This is the way it has to be and we must all make the most of it. A little "War Time Spirit" is what is needed people...not Whingeing which doesn't help at all!
 

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Dear Friends, it is very, very sad, but, times are hard and going to get even harder. This is the way it has to be and we must all make the most of it. A little "War Time Spirit" is what is needed people...not Whingeing which doesn't help at all!
Cuts to subsidies to the Catholic Church - 0%
Cuts to the royal household budget - 2%
Cuts to health and education - 17%

If that's not worth a little whinge I don't know what is.

La Iglesia católica no sufre recortes | Economía | EL PAÍS
 

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Cuts to subsidies to the Catholic Church - 0%
Cuts to the royal household budget - 2%
Cuts to health and education - 17%

If that's not worth a little whinge I don't know what is.

La Iglesia católica no sufre recortes | Economía | EL PAÍS
Education and health should be the very last budgets to be cut.
If people are willing to support the Catholic or any other Church or indeed the Royal Family, so be it.
But I personally would begrudge any cent going to any Royal Family as I do in regard to my UK taxes and I see no justification for subsidising religion, especially one as wealthy as the Catholic Church.
Ultimately it's up to the people to decide but I often wonder how much information is made available in order for any such allocation choice to be meaningful.
As I said in another post we can and should whinge where justifiable but people as a whole have to take responsibility for their actions and many people borrowed and spent irresponsibly when times were, on the surface, good. We can't blame the governments for our actions.
There is a piece in the Daily Mail today about people who took out interest-only loans facing huge principle repayments they cannot now afford. One idiot was moaning about soured investments which mean he cannot afford to live in his grand house.
Strange how people are unwilling to pay tax on investment profits yet expect the taxpayer to help when 'assets' turn sour....
 

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The last thing that the government should be cutting is the education budget. If Spain or other European countries are ever to drag themselves out of the quagmire it will be through placing itself at the cutting edge of the new technologies as India and China have done. This of course requires an educated populace. It is sadly typical of a right-wing government to overlook this as after all, who needs an educated waiter or gardener?

As Alcalaina noted, the church is not being squeezed in this budget. I think after 2000 years the church should be able to stand on its own two feet and pay its taxes like any other business.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Dear Friends, it is very, very sad, but, times are hard and going to get even harder. This is the way it has to be and we must all make the most of it. A little "War Time Spirit" is what is needed people...not Whingeing which doesn't help at all!
A litle "war time spirit" is useful - in war time. We are in twenty first century Spain and "war time" spirit, especially that of the last Spanish war, is totally out of place to my mind.
I think it would be more worrying if there was no whinging. Whinging is only complaining after all. If we weren't whinging we'd be accepting, and it's a very sorry state of affairs when you accept cuts in the basics of life just because.

I totally agree that cuts have to be made and cuts probably can be made in both the health service and education, but most people agree that cutting personnel is not the way to go about it. It would be nice not to cut anything in these areas, but the times of "fat cows" as the Spanish say are over and the "thin cows" are in the fields now so let's cut the school trips, the digital whiteboards, the computers and go back to teachers, black boards and chalk for everyone, but a teacher for every classroom, please
 

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Only two ferries a week and fewer flights for us. Now that will surely kill off what tourist industry there is.
 

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urmmm before we all get on our "high horses" about teacher to child ratio, today I saw roughly about 50 kids, in a school playground, being taught the basics of flamenco.... by one teacher. The kids were having fun, there was no bad behaviour.

The teacher then left them to themselves(she was watching all the time from inside the building)..... and without any prompting the kids continued to practice. All well behaved and helpfull when one didn' t get it right.

Some/most of the time, I think we(brits) have got it wrong
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
urmmm before we all get on our "high horses" about teacher to child ratio, today I saw roughly about 50 kids, in a school playground, being taught the basics of flamenco.... by one teacher. The kids were having fun, there was no bad behaviour.

The teacher then left them to themselves(she was watching all the time from inside the building)..... and without any prompting the kids continued to practice. All well behaved and helpfull when one didn' t get it right.

Some/most of the time, I think we(brits) have got it wrong
I think high horses have little to do with it.
Teaching Flamenco outside (probably classed as a fun activity by most kids, and quite possibly a teacher having to put 2 classes together because they are short of teachers/ rooms and doing the best they can) is a little different to teaching present perfect continuous or the formula needed to calculate electromagnetic waves inside to a group of unresponsive teens.
It's just not comparable.
 

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I regularly go into a class of 30 teenagers learning English. The teacher has to choose between helping the ones who are really keen (about half of them) or trying to engage the ones who couldn't give a damn. She doesn't have time to do both.
 

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I regularly go into a class of 30 teenagers learning English. The teacher has to choose between helping the ones who are really keen (about half of them) or trying to engage the ones who couldn't give a damn. She doesn't have time to do both.

Which is of course the case in most schools in the UK.

It's currently fashionable to blame teachers and the curriculum for not 'engaging with pupils' interests'.
Since the normal, usual interests of teenagers are focused on pleasure and amusement, it's hard to see how this can be reconciled with the need to actually have to study and master sometimes difficult and tedious disciplines which are essential for the individual to function effectively in the modern world.
I also believe that it is important for young people to know something about the culture and history of the country in which they live and of the cultures and history of other nations and people.
Unfortunately this all requires self-discipline and the foregoing of immediate pleasure for the sake of achieving a future goal.
These are not fashionable characteristics in today's society. The custom of placing blame on institutions and that vague and nebulous construct, 'society', rather than looking towards individual responsibility and personal endeavour, doesn't exactly help.

Incidentally, I have taught classes of over forty teenagers in 'tough' schools, achieved some measure of success and have never allowed indiscipline. The secret imo is mutual respect, simple agreed rules of procedure, a sense of humour and a sense of proportion.
But I'm older now, times have changed and I accept that might not be so easy now.
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
Which is of course the case in most schools in the UK.

It's currently fashionable to blame teachers and the curriculum for not 'engaging with pupils' interests'.
Since the normal, usual interests of teenagers are focused on pleasure and amusement, it's hard to see how this can be reconciled with the need to actually have to study and master sometimes difficult and tedious disciplines which are essential for the individual to function effectively in the modern world.
I also believe that it is important for young people to know something about the culture and history of the country in which they live and of the cultures and history of other nations and people.
Unfortunately this all requires self-discipline and the foregoing of immediate pleasure for the sake of achieving a future goal.
These are not fashionable characteristics in today's society. The custom of placing blame on institutions and that vague and nebulous construct, 'society', rather than looking towards individual responsibility and personal endeavour, doesn't exactly help.

Incidentally, I have taught classes of over forty teenagers in 'tough' schools, achieved some measure of success and have never allowed indiscipline. The secret imo is mutual respect, simple agreed rules of procedure, a sense of humour and a sense of proportion.
But I'm older now, times have changed and I accept that might not be so easy now.
I think things are different now; I think commanding respect is more and more difficult with some age groups, some geographical areas, some sub cultures. That's not to say it's impossible, but why make a hard job harder? We can't all be gifted teachers. Most of us are just teachers, and smaller classes are easier to handle than bigger classes, even if we're just talking about how long does it take everyone to get through the door and sit down, let alone discipline and actually teaching the students something! In a larger class it takes longer and is more difficult.
I also think it's important to be open to change. If the students are changing, for good or for bad, and whoever is to blame, then the teaching should change. After all in a business if your product/ service isn't successful you react, don't you?
Anyway, getting back to topic - cuts yes, but think about it Rajoy, think about what's really going to benefit the nation
 

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I think things are different now; I think commanding respect is more and more difficult with some age groups, some geographical areas, some sub cultures. That's not to say it's impossible, but why make a hard job harder? We can't all be gifted teachers. Most of us are just teachers, and smaller classes are easier to handle than bigger classes, even if we're just talking about how long does it take everyone to get through the door and sit down, let alone discipline and actually teaching the students something! In a larger class it takes longer and is more difficult.
I also think it's important to be open to change. If the students are changing, for good or for bad, and whoever is to blame, then the teaching should change. After all in a business if your product/ service isn't successful you react, don't you?
Anyway, getting back to topic - cuts yes, but think about it Rajoy, think about what's really going to benefit the nation

Is teaching a 'business', though? I don't see it as such. It is an essential tool for educating our young into the mores and functions of our society.

What happens in society definitely affects how education is conducted and how its content is perceived.....and you can't ignore change. But not all change is beneficial for either the individual or society. Adaption to change shouldn't be an automatic reflex...it should be carefully considered and evaluated.

In my decades in teaching I saw so many changes that in the last years I decided that if you stood still long enough the wheel of change would revolve back to you.
This was in fact the case.....

I think the problem in the UK was that in the 1960s middle-class academics and politicians, most of whom on left or right were privately educated, as were their own children, viewed education as an experiment in social engineering designed to bring about an 'egalitarian society'.

I know this to be the case from first-hand experience when the Labour-controlled London Borough we were Councillors on decided to implement a programme of comprehensivisation of its schools. I was 100% in favour then. Mea maxima culpa....:(

The results have sadly turned out to the detriment of the less well-off. Those who can afford to either educate their children privately (my son and dil) or use their wealth to buy a home in an affluent area with 'good' i.e, middle-class comprehensives (my ex-husband and wife).
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
Is teaching a 'business', though? I don't see it as such. It is an essential tool for educating our young into the mores and functions of our society.

What happens in society definitely affects how education is conducted and how its content is perceived.....and you can't ignore change. But not all change is beneficial for either the individual or society. Adaption to change shouldn't be an automatic reflex...it should be carefully considered and evaluated.

In my decades in teaching I saw so many changes that in the last years I decided that if you stood still long enough the wheel of change would revolve back to you.
This was in fact the case.....

I think the problem in the UK was that in the 1960s middle-class academics and politicians, most of whom on left or right were privately educated, as were their own children, viewed education as an experiment in social engineering designed to bring about an 'egalitarian society'.

I know this to be the case from first-hand experience when the Labour-controlled London Borough we were Councillors on decided to implement a programme of comprehensivisation of its schools. I was 100% in favour then. Mea maxima culpa....:(

The results have sadly turned out to the detriment of the less well-off. Those who can afford to either educate their children privately (my son and dil) or use their wealth to buy a home in an affluent area with 'good' i.e, middle-class comprehensives (my ex-husband and wife).
No perhaps it isn't a valid exercise to compare a school to a business, but the idea was that change happens and we have to recognise that. And, no, change isn't always for the best, but still it happens.
There are the old favourites, discipline and technology. Discipline and technology are often referred to in black and white terms. Was discipline better "before"? Is technology "bad" for our children especially "socially"? I'm just thinking that it's not necessarily better or bad, it's just different and we maybe have to accept those differences from time to time.
I don't think change is bunging a few technological wonders in a classroom either. I think change, especially in Spain, should come about by means of training and investment in their teachers and staff.
What an old fashioned idea I've just come up with!!:)
Anyway, it ain't gonna happen, is it?
 

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Schools

Along with the announcement concerning class sizes, the Minister for Education, José Igancio Wert, has also announced, that he wants to increase the numbers of hours a week that primary and secondary teachers will have to spend in the classroom, to 25 hours for infant and primary, and 20 for secondary.

He was presenting his draft paper for a royal decree to the regional governments, and explained the object of the measures is to save 3 billion €.

It makes you wonder how many hours teachers are currently doing??
 

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Along with the announcement concerning class sizes, the Minister for Education, José Igancio Wert, has also announced, that he wants to increase the numbers of hours a week that primary and secondary teachers will have to spend in the classroom, to 25 hours for infant and primary, and 20 for secondary.

He was presenting his draft paper for a royal decree to the regional governments, and explained the object of the measures is to save 3 billion €.

It makes you wonder how many hours teachers are currently doing??
20 or 25 CONTACT hours is not the same as WORKING hours!!!

I teach privately & probably spend as many hours preparing for classes as I do actually teaching - & I teach a course I wrote myself a few years ago, so you wouldn't think I'd need much more prep.... but different students have different weaknesses/needs so I am constantly creating supplementary material

I don't have marking at all - but last year when I was tutoring IGCSE the marking often took longer than the actual teaching!

there have been various studies & recommendations are that over 20 hours classroom contact can be bad for a teacher's health
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
Along with the announcement concerning class sizes, the Minister for Education, José Igancio Wert, has also announced, that he wants to increase the numbers of hours a week that primary and secondary teachers will have to spend in the classroom, to 25 hours for infant and primary, and 20 for secondary.

He was presenting his draft paper for a royal decree to the regional governments, and explained the object of the measures is to save 3 billion €.

It makes you wonder how many hours teachers are currently doing??
This is the misreading of figures that is always common when talking about teachers. As Xabia has already pointed out, and that you yourself have written, these are hours that teachers will have to spend in the classroom. Preparation and marking is on top of that. Also Spanish teachers have to do a certain amount of training each year for which they are given credits.
Before anybody mentions it - no the teachers do not get the same holidays as the children, although it is true that they get more time then most other "ordinary" jobs
 
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