I agree. I would never give false information. But the poster said he had asked INSS and they didn't know. Bit of a worry if you have you trust a lawyer instead... I have written to INSS through their buzon asking about this but no response yet. Maybe a call or appointment... someone must have the answer to all this.

 

The poster said INSS didn't answer not that they didn't know. I don't think INSS will respond to a letter- they rarely do unless they have started the process of communication. You need to visit your local office and actually speak with a funcionario whist they look at your records

 

I'm asuming that if you answer "yes" to the question of having worked abroad, they will consult the other country (assuming there is an agreement) and calculate the single pension based on combined combinations. Of course, if you already have maximum Spanish pension, what possible effect can the UK contributions have?

More than concerned about answering yes, I woud be more interested to know the lawyer's view of the risks of answering "no" when that is actually false. I suspect that this is an area which falls into an "but everyone does it" type of answer.

 

You have to be honest whatever the consequences. I’m a bit cautious of Spanish lawyers or consultants of any kind. I just consulted someone about inheritance/gift tax to receive money from the UK and he tried to persuade me to just leave it in the UK and say nothing here on the basis that after 4 years they can do nothing. And he was incredulous that I wanted to declare it properly and pay the taxes, which are significant as it’s a lot of money. But I wouldn’t be able to sleep at night, quite apart from the moral implications. So in the case of claiming pensions, best not to conceal anything…

 

Giving misleading or downright false information to tax authorities or any government body is utter lunacy!

 

Wow, how to make the tax man angry!

I hope your finances are squeezy clean otherwise, neilben!!!

If I was a government tax auditor, knowing you had deliberately defrauded the state of tax due, I would go after you with a vengeance you cannot imagine, until I found something I could hang you with!

 

Dancingspider, your outburst suggests you haven't read or understood my original post.
I think I made it clear I was commenting on advice I had received but have no intention of following it. I told the lawyer I wanted to declare the money properly and pay the tax. And he just looked at me like I was out of my mind.
Just to be clear, I have never evaded tax or hidden assets, and would never do so, either from a legal or moral perspective.

 

Hello,
Many thanks for your post it looks like a subject not just interesting to me but to many others (5K views as I write this). Please do let us know if you get to the bottom of this?

I am particularly interest as when I retire in Spain I will have completed 32 years of contributions here (so not quite the full pension but nearly and I will have to be 67) and I also have a number of years in the uk (something like 12). I have the opportunity of filling the gaps of almost all my missing years in the UK (in April 2025 the deadline for filling some of those years expires). So in my case your question is interesting because I can't decide if it is worth filling the gaps if the Uk years are just added to the Spanish years for one Spanish pension, or if you are better off with many years in both countries.

I see lots of information in Spanish government websites and other advice website but none seem to answer your question clearly. The clearest so far seems to be this from an eu page (I had to remove the link to post this I'm afraid, my post was flagged as spam but it's easy to find) although in every example case study no-one has reached the minimum years in both countries, which is yours and many of the people who are interested in this post's case!

Does anyone have an official source that answers this question?

I have also found non-ofical information which seems to suggest they make two calculations and you receive whichever is highest: 1. adding the years to your Spanish years and calculating your Spanish pension, 2. working out what separate pensions you would receive from each country and adding the sums of both. This Spanish government magazine article from 2018 explains this (again, I had to remove the link to post this I'm afraid, my post was flagged as spam but it's a 2018 article called "Una vida laboral en varios países") and I have seen it in some other websites but nothing 100% oficial and clear. Can anyone answer this definitively and with an official source!

Many thanks!

 

The only official response will be by going to your local INSS Office

 

Thanks 1kaipa, I am looking for an official source of information not an official response. If there is a rule, and there must be, I imagine it must be published somewhere although I can’t find it. In my experience the INSS office are not interested unless you are actually doing the process, as the original poster says when he asked there they said they didn’t know?

 

The idea of asking the INSS is a good one but, as you say, the original poster couldn’t get a clear answer, and I don’t think the average civil servant would be able to explain exactly how the two pensions are calculated. You would need someone higher up who actually deals with it. But nothing lost by trying…

I am in a similar situation and have been investigating. The “official” source you are looking for is the EU regulation that covers social security coordination: EC 883/2004. That describes the system the UK and Spain must use to calculate pensions.

I have also found people on two other forums who have actually retired and claimed their pensions after accumulating contributions in the UK (both compulsory and voluntary) and other EU countries, including Spain. And the bottom line is the system can only be to your benefit. It’s important to note there is no single European social security system or single European pension. Whatever happens you get two separate pensions, paid by two separate countries. EC 883/2004 was simply designed to coordinate and honour contributions in different countries in the case that you don’t have enough qualifying years (such as fewer than 10 in the UK or 15 in Spain) as you would otherwise lose entitlement to that pension. But the minimum you would get is what you are entitled to in each country separately.

First, each country calculates what you should get according to your contributions under its system. And then it does a theoretical calculation as if you had paid your contributions in the other country into its system but disregarding any overlapping periods. From there it calculates a pro-rata amount. If there is a difference in the two, you get the higher amount.

For example, I retire in Spain in 3 years. I will have a full UK pension (with 17 compulsory years and the rest voluntary contributions) and 24 years in Spain. So under the EU regulation, to calculate my pension, the UK would disregard my Spanish contributions as they would make no difference to my entitlement to a full British pension. Meanwhile, in its calculation Spain would disregard my voluntary UK contributions as they overlap with my Spanish compulsory contributions, and simply look at my 17 years working and contributing in the UK and my 24 years here in Spain. This could possibly, though not necessarily, result in a higher amount than my separate Spanish pension, but it would not be less. It is complicated as each country has a very different system for calculating a pension under its own rules.

That is what I have discovered from people’s practical experience and knowledge, and by reading the regulation and a summary thereof. And the DWP has also told me this is how it works. So I am proceeding on the basis of that information. And, to be honest, the idea that Spain would really deny someone a pension despite 24 years paying self-employment national insurance is surely absurd.

In any case, I have already bought my UK voluntary contributions, so it’s somewhat academic for me, what’s done is done. I’m offering no advice, but the voluntary contributions in themselves are an absolute bargain and the best investment you can make. But it’s a decision for you, one to make soon as you have until April next year and they are saturated so best not leave it until the last minute.

My only doubt now is about the different retirement ages and whether I can or should take my UK pension first (the DWP says I can)…but I have time to look at that.

By the way, if you do decide to pay voluntary contributions, call the future pension centre first to make sure which years will improve your pension (call them at 8am UK time, not a minute later), and then apply to HMRC online via CF83 (not by post) to pay the cheaper class 2. I did the whole thing in 3 weeks, which was amazing, although they take some time to actually update your record. But as long as you are in the system...

 

"'Middle age' is the period in your life when you are no longer young but have not yet become old. Middle age is usually considered to take place between the ages of 40 and 60"
Life expectancy at birth in the UK in 2020 to 2022 was 78.6 years for males and 82.6 years for females.
So why is 'middle age' not 78.6/2 = 39.3 or 82.6/2 = 41.3, for males and females respectively.
Or, as they quote a band of 20 years in line one above (40 and 60), so 39.3±10=29.3 to 49.3 and 41.3±10=31.3 to 51.3, is really middle age, for males and females respectively.

 

The idea of asking the INSS is a good one but, as you say, the original poster couldn’t get a clear answer, and I don’t think the average civil servant would be able to explain exactly how the two pensions are calculated. You would need someone higher up who actually deals with it. But nothing lost by trying…

I am in a similar situation and have been investigating. The “official” source you are looking for is the EU regulation that covers social security coordination: EC 883/2004. That describes the system the UK and Spain must use to calculate pensions.

I have also found people on two other forums who have actually retired and claimed their pensions after accumulating contributions in the UK (both compulsory and voluntary) and other EU countries, including Spain. And the bottom line is the system can only be to your benefit. It’s important to note there is no single European social security system or single European pension. Whatever happens you get two separate pensions, paid by two separate countries. EC 883/2004 was simply designed to coordinate and honour contributions in different countries in the case that you don’t have enough qualifying years (such as fewer than 10 in the UK or 15 in Spain) as you would otherwise lose entitlement to that pension. But the minimum you would get is what you are entitled to in each country separately.

First, each country calculates what you should get according to your contributions under its system. And then it does a theoretical calculation as if you had paid your contributions in the other country into its system but disregarding any overlapping periods. From there it calculates a pro-rata amount. If there is a difference in the two, you get the higher amount.

For example, I retire in Spain in 3 years. I will have a full UK pension (with 17 compulsory years and the rest voluntary contributions) and 24 years in Spain. So under the EU regulation, to calculate my pension, the UK would disregard my Spanish contributions as they would make no difference to my entitlement to a full British pension. Meanwhile, in its calculation Spain would disregard my voluntary UK contributions as they overlap with my Spanish compulsory contributions, and simply look at my 17 years working and contributing in the UK and my 24 years here in Spain. This could possibly, though not necessarily, result in a higher amount than my separate Spanish pension, but it would not be less. It is complicated as each country has a very different system for calculating a pension under its own rules.

That is what I have discovered from people’s practical experience and knowledge, and by reading the regulation and a summary thereof. And the DWP has also told me this is how it works. So I am proceeding on the basis of that information. And, to be honest, the idea that Spain would really deny someone a pension despite 24 years paying self-employment national insurance is surely absurd.

In any case, I have already bought my UK voluntary contributions, so it’s somewhat academic for me, what’s done is done. I’m offering no advice, but the voluntary contributions in themselves are an absolute bargain and the best investment you can make. But it’s a decision for you, one to make soon as you have until April next year and they are saturated so best not leave it until the last minute.

My only doubt now is about the different retirement ages and whether I can or should take my UK pension first (the DWP says I can)…but I have time to look at that.

By the way, if you do decide to pay voluntary contributions, call the future pension centre first to make sure which years will improve your pension (call them at 8am UK time, not a minute later), and then apply to HMRC online via CF83 (not by post) to pay the cheaper class 2. I did the whole thing in 3 weeks, which was amazing, although they take some time to actually update your record. But as long as you are in the system...

The idea of asking the INSS is a good one but, as you say, the original poster couldn’t get a clear answer, and I don’t think the average civil servant would be able to explain exactly how the two pensions are calculated. You would need someone higher up who actually deals with it. But nothing lost by trying…

I am in a similar situation and have been investigating. The “official” source you are looking for is the EU regulation that covers social security coordination: EC 883/2004. That describes the system the UK and Spain must use to calculate pensions.

I have also found people on two other forums who have actually retired and claimed their pensions after accumulating contributions in the UK (both compulsory and voluntary) and other EU countries, including Spain. And the bottom line is the system can only be to your benefit. It’s important to note there is no single European social security system or single European pension. Whatever happens you get two separate pensions, paid by two separate countries. EC 883/2004 was simply designed to coordinate and honour contributions in different countries in the case that you don’t have enough qualifying years (such as fewer than 10 in the UK or 15 in Spain) as you would otherwise lose entitlement to that pension. But the minimum you would get is what you are entitled to in each country separately.

First, each country calculates what you should get according to your contributions under its system. And then it does a theoretical calculation as if you had paid your contributions in the other country into its system but disregarding any overlapping periods. From there it calculates a pro-rata amount. If there is a difference in the two, you get the higher amount.

For example, I retire in Spain in 3 years. I will have a full UK pension (with 17 compulsory years and the rest voluntary contributions) and 24 years in Spain. So under the EU regulation, to calculate my pension, the UK would disregard my Spanish contributions as they would make no difference to my entitlement to a full British pension. Meanwhile, in its calculation Spain would disregard my voluntary UK contributions as they overlap with my Spanish compulsory contributions, and simply look at my 17 years working and contributing in the UK and my 24 years here in Spain. This could possibly, though not necessarily, result in a higher amount than my separate Spanish pension, but it would not be less. It is complicated as each country has a very different system for calculating a pension under its own rules.

That is what I have discovered from people’s practical experience and knowledge, and by reading the regulation and a summary thereof. And the DWP has also told me this is how it works. So I am proceeding on the basis of that information. And, to be honest, the idea that Spain would really deny someone a pension despite 24 years paying self-employment national insurance is surely absurd.

In any case, I have already bought my UK voluntary contributions, so it’s somewhat academic for me, what’s done is done. I’m offering no advice, but the voluntary contributions in themselves are an absolute bargain and the best investment you can make. But it’s a decision for you, one to make soon as you have until April next year and they are saturated so best not leave it until the last minute.

My only doubt now is about the different retirement ages and whether I can or should take my UK pension first (the DWP says I can)…but I have time to look at that.

By the way, if you do decide to pay voluntary contributions, call the future pension centre first to make sure which years will improve your pension (call them at 8am UK time, not a minute later), and then apply to HMRC online via CF83 (not by post) to pay the cheaper class 2. I did the whole thing in 3 weeks, which was amazing, although they take some time to actually update your record. But as long as you are in the system...


So you say you have essentially 2 options. Either get 2 options for pensions - a full UK one and 24 years of Spanish one both separate.Or, a Spanish and UK mix to give you 37 year Spanish full pension ( meaning you lose your 8 years of voluntary contributions and get 17+24=42, 5 years xtra as maximum is 37 years in Spain). So if the full Spanish pension is more than 2 separate you will have paid for 8 years of unnecessary voluntary contributions in UK plus have made 5 years of contributions in Spain that are effectively lost. Is this the case? So surely the 2 separate pensions is going to be the best as then you get pensions based on all your contributions?
And this is the worry the other poster had. That mixing pensions means that Spain discounts your voluntary contributions if the are for the same years you are working in Spain
In other words if someone has a full pension of 35 years in Spain but ONLY 13 years ( paying vast automino rates) you won't be able to get 2 separate pensions . If you worked 24 years in UK but paid 11 years voluntary contributions in UK Spain would ignore those 11 years and put your 24 years onto the 13 in Spain to give you the required 37 years for a Spanish pension. So you wasted money paying for 11 years voluntary. So surely things are not as easy as they look?

 

Neilben - you say you have essentially 2 options. Either get 2 options for pensions - a full UK one and 24 years of Spanish one both separate.Or, a Spanish and UK mix to give you 37 year Spanish full pension ( meaning you lose your 8 years of voluntary contributions and get 17+24=42, 5 years xtra as maximum is 37 years in Spain). So if the full Spanish pension is more than 2 separate you will have paid for 8 years of unnecessary voluntary contributions in UK plus have made 5 years of contributions in Spain that are effectively lost. Is this the case? So surely the 2 separate pensions is going to be the best as then you get pensions based on all your contributions?
And this is the worry the other poster had. That mixing pensions means that Spain discounts your voluntary contributions if the are for the same years you are working in Spain
In other words if someone has a full pension of UK 35 years but ONLY 13 years ( paying vast automino rates) in Spain, you won't be able to get 2 separate pensions . If you worked 24 years in UK but paid 11 years voluntary contributions in UK Spain would ignore those 11 years and put your 24 years onto the 13 in Spain to give you the required 37 years for a Spanish pension. So you wasted money paying for 11 years voluntary. So surely things are not as easy as they look?

In other words it is worth paying voluntary contributions in UK only if you know you will have 15 plus years in Spain,as then you have the options of taking two separate pensions. If however you pay for a full UK pension of 35 years but simultaneously work the voluntary years in Spain but for less than 15 years , all those Spanish years are discounted and lost as you can't add them to UK pension but if you add the UK pension to your less than 15 Spanish years you might get a full Spanish pension but would have unnecessarily have paid X number of voluntary contributions!!

 

Blimey, I think my head just exploded!

I don’t pretend to be an expert on the minutiae of the application of the EU equivalent rate. There are lots of articles explaining it. But the fundamental thing to understand is that you get a pension based on your actual years of contributions in a country. You don’t get years added. Each country calculates the amount of the corresponding pension, in proportion to the amount contributed to that country and in reference to the total years contributed in all countries.

When Spain calculates my theoretical pension, based on 17 years in UK and 24 in Spain, that doesn’t mean I get a Spanish pension of 41 years, just that the value of my 24 years might be slightly higher because of the theoretical calculation. This depends on how each country calculates its pension, which varies greatly. As it was explained to me, in Germany it can work out more, but probably not in Spain.

The point is that claiming them together you will get at least the amount you would get separately. You don’t lose years. One pension does not cancel out part of the other. There is no “mixing” of pensions. They are in all cases paid separately by each country. So paying voluntary contributions is worth it. When I go into my online forecasts for UK and Spain, that is more or less what I should get from each country, unless there is some major overhaul.

Finally, in your example ofa full UK pension and 13 years in Spain, under this system you would be paid for those 13 years rather than losing them, thanks to your UK years. I would assume, though not sure, that they would need to be claimed together to benefit, because if you asked for them separately they would be calculated independently of each other, meaning the 13 years would be lost. As I said before, this system was designed to protect people with pensions in Europe below the qualifying national level.

And now I think I need to rest!

 

The uk pays your uk voluntary years, nothing can change that, you dont lose them because spain ignores them. Spain will pay you the 14 years, if that is what you have, thanks to your uk compulsory years. But there is no discounting of voluntary years. Spain simply ignores them in the theoretical calculation.

 

What do you mean Spain will pay you the 14 years? They won't pay anything if you elect to take the UK pension.

 

If that is what you believe or have been told, it doesn't tally with my understanding from people who have been through it. But you must decide for yourself.

 

Not disagreeing with you just trying to clarify things a bit more as this- as you know - is difficult to fully understand.Maybe we are at cross wires but what I mean is that 14 years in Spain does not give you a stand alone pension. You need 15. So if you decide to take a UK pension separately - you get zero from Spain.Whereas if you have 15 you can get a UK pension and 15/37 of Spanish pension separately.

 

Ok, I see what you mean. And yes, that would be my understanding because they would be considered independently of each other.
And of course if you wait to claim them together you miss out on a year or whatever of the deferred uk pension, although it will have increased a bit because of the deferment.
So yes, it's a tricky decision.

 

If you end up with 40 years contributions in Spain, and you only need 35 for the UK pension, can you transfer the remain 5 years to your Spanish pension?

 

Thanks again, and again extremely helpful, I‘m sure others reading this will agree. With what you say I will definitely ring the future’s office.(edit: this was a reply and somehow was published as a post unfortunately no way to delete)

 

Just as a matter of interest at what age can you claim your pension in Spain? My account with SS simply tells me how long I have to work until I get a Spanish pension ( which is 69) but as I will probably just use my UK pension of 30 years plus 7 years of my Spanish when I assume I reach the required age in Spain. So anyone know what age you have to be in Spain before you can do that?

 

what age can you claim your pension in Spain?

This will give you the details. Open the section "Edad"

Seguridad Social: Prestaciones / Pensiones de Trabajadores

HOME. Apartados y Secciones destacables del portal web.

www.seg-social.es

 

Many thanks!

 

An interesting discussion and thanks to everyone for their contributions, though it appears as though there are still some grey areas with regard to claiming pensions in UK and Spain. To add one further complication, is anyone aware of what might happen in the following circumstances.
I have paid enough years (over 30) in the UK to qualify for a full pension when reaching the retirement age of 67. I have also paid 30 years of contributions in Spain and so would qualify for a full pension if I worked through to the age of 67 (six years from now). However, if I wanted to retire in Spain at the age of 65, I would have to have worked 38 years and 6 months and I would be around four years short of reaching that figure.

So, my question is, could I use my UK years to count for those four years in order to retire in Spain at the age of 65 and, if so, would I forfeit my right to claim my separate pension in the UK?

Thanks in advance.

 

Its 35 full contributing years to get the full pension... Its been this amount of years for at least the last 10.
It may be increasing to 39 when the Government put the age of retirement up to 68 (will be looked at in the first two years of this parliament).

 

He can retire at 65 and get UK pension. If he waits another year he will get a 30 year Spanish contributions pension. Both will be separate. He can retire at 66( pension age) in Spain and use 4 years of UK pension to get full Spanish pension but would then lose his UK one- which would be stupid. Spanish SS will work out which system works best

 

How can you retire at 65 and claim a Uk OAP?
Could you explain or provide a link because that would be perfect for me in a couple of years as it would mean I could take less from the private fund and make it last a lot longer.

 

Perhaps I have misunderstood what you are saying but it contradicts what I have been told.

The retirement age in the UK is currently 66, so not sure what you mean when you say he can get it at 65. Especially as he says his retirement age is 67, which is when he will qualify for it. But perhaps that’s not what you meant…

More importantly, as I’ve said before, you can’t simply transfer years from the UK to Spain. If he has 30+ years in Spain and 30+ in UK, then he will have two separate pensions based on those years of contributions, albeit adjusted according to the EU-equivalent rate (if claimed together). You cannot add years to the Spanish pension by taking them out of your UK pension.

As I have explained elsewhere, my understanding comes from reading the EU documentation relating to the regulation governing coordination of social security in Europe and, more importantly, from people who have actually been through this and have practical knowledge and experience of how it works. These are people I found on 2 other forums, as it seems that none of us participating in this forum has any actual experience of this.

So I wonder, with all due respect, where you are getting your information from.

 

Thanks for your reply. What I meant is that under the current regulations in Spain I will be able to retire at 67 (in 2030 as retirement age is graded increasing). However, if you have 38 and a half years paid into the Spanish system you can retire when you are 65 according to the charts published by the seguridad social.

I have been told different things by different advisers. Some say that the years I have paid in the UK can be counted and so I would be able to retire at 65 in Spain. One also told me this won't stop me getting two separate pensions while another told me the two pensions would be combined. I just wondered if anyone had any experience or knowledge about this. The seguridad social said I should only speak to them about 9 months before retirement but it would be nice to know the options beforehand. When I asked in the UK, they didn't really seem to know what would happen.

 

Yes INSS won't give you any real information until you are approaching retirement age. Yes you are right you can retire at 65 if you have 38 years but whether you can use your UK years to top up is something I don't know but you won't be just losing a few years off your UK pension - you will lose all of. Your best situation is to wait until you reach your UK pension age and then take UK pension. Then separately take your Spanish one once you reach the acceptable Spanish retirement age. I would try and avoid involving the two systems together as I imagine that will be more complicated and take longer. The only reason for mixing the 2 is when you don't qualify for a full pension yet would if both pensions are combined.

 

Thank you.

 

Spanish pension claim resolved.
Apologies for taking so long in updating this post but i was waiting to officialy retire on the 31 of october this year.
I made a claim for my Spanish state pension via a lawyer in Barcelona around the middle of september as the claim can be made 90 days in advance of retirement.
My claim would have been taken up on the 1st of november (public holiday in Spain) and to my great surprise i received confirmation from INSS on the 8th of november stating that my claim had been approved , along with a downloadable certificate showin the amount i will receive and the IRPF that will be applied.
Why my surprise , the lawyer had told me it could take between 3 and 4 months for my claim to be approved and even INSS told me it would take 4 to 6 weeks!!
I should therefore receive my first payment on the 25th of november including 1/6th of the extra payment which is payed out twice per year.

The next step in my particular case will be to claim my UK state pension as i have 33 qualifying years through employment in the UK and voluntry contributions that i have made over the years.
I have already received a letter from DWP telling me how to make a claim when i reach retirement age (66) in the middle of january 2025.
After speaking to INSS about this it looks like the correct procedure is to make the claim through INSS as the rules state an individual must make a claim from their country of residence , in my case Spain.

Not a lot of information is available for anyone who find themselves in my particular position , being able to claim both Spanish and UK state pensions , so i will me more than willing to share my experience in more detail if requested.
Over the last few months i have been giving a lot of misleading information from INSS and also my lawyer in Barcelona but finally my situation is sorting itself out.

 

So you have claimed your spanish pension through INSS, and now you will claim the UK pension separately but also through the INSS? I thought they would be claimed at the same time... but perhaps it is because you used a lawyer?
Why did you use a lawyer to claim? I ask as I'm thinking of doing the same, but just for information....

I am very interested in your experience as I also will have pensions from both countries, but my uk pension kicks in july 2066,but my spanish one 10 months later in May 67. So my confusion is whether I can claim the UK one first via DWP, carry on working in spain for the 10 months and then claim the Spanish one. But if I have to claim them both here in Spain that rather throws a spanner in the works...