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Discussion Starter #1
I wouldn't attend a traditional bull fight. I wouldn't attend one of these either, because I don't want to see the inevitable happen. These guys take too many risks so it will happen.

But I'd never seen this before. Is it common?

I should say, nobody gets hurt, humans and animals.

 

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Hi,
That's still going to sting if they mis-time their dodges!
Cheers
Steve
 

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yep - happens here several times a year

people get hurt sometimes, but rarely does a bull

mostly it seems that the bulls, the guys ( & girls) & the audience just enjoy it

Xabia / Jávéa.2013.(09 ) bous a la mar. - YouTube
I've seen the ones in Javea Convent and the bus stop car park, but not the Port one yet. What surprised me was seeing the "no harm" non-traditional kind in a big arena like the Valencia show. I thought that was still for traditional corridas.

I hadn't seen a video of the Javea Port one before.
 

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Hmm. the bulls would probably much rather be in a field somewhere than surrounded by a group of highly charged Spanish youths shouting and jumping all over them
True but unfortunately these bulls wouldn't be enjoying life in a field or anywhere else if there weren't events like this. Toros bravos have to earn their keep, breeders earn a lot of money from them.
 

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Hmm. the bulls would probably much rather be in a field somewhere than surrounded by a group of highly charged Spanish youths shouting and jumping all over them
well yes of course

but since I don't see bulls being given up completely any time soon, it's certainly the lesser of the many & various 'evils' - & a step in what most would say is the right direction
 

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well yes of course

but since I don't see bulls being given up completely any time soon, it's certainly the lesser of the many & various 'evils' - & a step in what most would say is the right direction
I don't think it is better actually. The bulls / vaquillas are used for people's sport and entertainment which amounts to torture for them. I think it's very dangerous to link entertainment to putting animals in situations entirely out of their natural environment. Because people link it with "fun" it's very difficult to then link that "fun" activity with mistreatment or cruelty
 

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True but unfortunately these bulls wouldn't be enjoying life in a field or anywhere else if there weren't events like this. Toros bravos have to earn their keep, breeders earn a lot of money from them.
Yes, there is the problem of how many toro bravos would survive if there weren't any bullfights etc, but is it better to be bred to be tortured? I don't know what the anti bullfighters arguments are.
What I do know though is that there is more and more evidence that cows are social, they are intelligent, they mourn, they experience emotions etc etc.

And yes, I'm a total hypocrite because although I love some vegetarian food, I also like my steak
 

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Yes, there is the problem of how many toro bravos would survive if there weren't any bullfights etc, but is it better to be bred to be tortured? I don't know what the anti bullfighters arguments are.
What I do know though is that there is more and more evidence that cows are social, they are intelligent, they mourn, they experience emotions etc etc.

And yes, I'm a total hypocrite because although I love some vegetarian food, I also like my steak
A few years of being fed and pampered, roaming freely in the fields, then dying horribly in the bullring or abattoir, vs never being born at all. It's a moral dilemma and I can't answer it. I suspect many animal rights campaigners don't even consider it.

At least the animals don't know what's in store for them.
 

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And yes, I'm a total hypocrite because although I love some vegetarian food, I also like my steak
I'm not too sure you should worry about that (if you do :)). Surely the issue is making it acceptable to delight in watching an animal suffer. To enjoy watching the teasing of a wounded drugged animal that is bleeding to death.

I don't have anything against people who work in abattoirs but I do smile when the headline reads "bull gores matador".

ps: Last week I saw one of the guys who crossed Greenland in record time using skies and kites being interviewed. He said he had explained to his 6 year old that it was dangerous but should they be attacked by a polar bear they would have to shoot it. She said that she hoped the bear won :eek:
 

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I haven't heard of that before. I watched the video and it's positively frightening to see the guy attacked at the end! I guess he had it coming to him.

Does anybody know what this is called? Do they still call it bull fighting? Or is there another name for this?
 

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A few years of being fed and pampered, roaming freely in the fields, then dying horribly in the bullring or abattoir, vs never being born at all. It's a moral dilemma and I can't answer it. I suspect many animal rights campaigners don't even consider it.

At least the animals don't know what's in store for them.
Hi - I'd prefer to hope that, in the case of the human perpetrators and the audiences, the 'moral dilemma' as to whether, or not, it's acceptable and justifiable to torture a live, sentient mammal to death, in a barbaric, sadistic and ritualistic manner, on the grounds that the bull was treated decently up until it was transported to the bull ring, might, within the next decade, no longer cause any human being to lie awake at night, mulling over the 'pros' and 'cons' - because bull- chasing, goading and killing by degree, slowly, for entertainment, would have been exposed for the diabolical, abhorrent, pathetic, twisted travesty of human behaviour that it is!

BTW, the horses used and abused as bait within the bull- ring are rarely even considered by those who advocate the continuation of live- animal tormenting and killing, in front of an audience! Perhaps, if more humans were made fully aware of the forms of training and the suffering inflicted on horses during the 'fights', even when not actually being mauled or even gored to death ( as so many are..), there would, surely, be a public outcry and an international campaign to get such torture stopped...!

As it is, the gullible and ignorant majority continue to be manipulated, misinformed and misled by the minority of people who participate in these medieval public spectacles - exactly as was the case with the so- called 'sport' of hunting live mammals to death, with the use of dog packs, in the UK, until a few years ago!

Unfortunately for the barbarian practitioners of said 'sports', the video camera was invented, which enabled the reality of their activities to be presented, by activist opponents, before the British public and their MPs, whilst two world- renowned experts on wild mammals ( both of them University Professors, responsible for original, peer- reviewed, published research and the supervision of PhD students) stepped up, to rubbish the ludicrous claims made by hunters to excuse and justify their determined, continuing slaughter of foxes, deer, hare and otters!
Thus, the 100 year- long campaign to end hunting of live mammals with dogs was successful and the 'Hunt Act', which would abolish the 'Sport,' finally became UK Law!

So, the bulls and horses destined for death by torture, at the behest of human barbarians, need the active support of every compassionate, clear- minded human, for whom the deliberate infliction of agonising pain, fear and ritualised death, upon another living creature, would be unimaginable, incomprehensible and utterly inexcusable!-

I really do believe that there are, in educated Western societies, even now, many more opponents of cruelty to animals than perpetrators - after all, this was my own experience during my 30 years as an 'anti- hunt' activist and campaigner! Once people were shown the truth about the brutality involved, they were, firstly, appalled, then, incensed- at having been fooled by the hunters' lies! Many then became supporters of the need for a new British law, to consign such barbarism and sadism to 'the dustbin of History!'

So, the more the opposition grows, the sooner the thousands of animal victims destined for the depravity of the bull- ring, will be safe! Those humans whose ears, eyes and minds are closed to the evidence of animal torture in the bull ring, had better start researching other forms of live entertainment (not involving live creatures), and soon....!

Saludos,
GC.
 
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yep - happens here several times a year

people get hurt sometimes, but rarely does a bull

mostly it seems that the bulls, the guys ( & girls) & the audience just enjoy it

Xabia / Jávéa.2013.(09 ) bous a la mar. - YouTube
Hi - I disagree! The concept of 'enjoyment' cannot, surely, be applied to bulls, when placed, by humans, in environments so totally alien to their nature and instincts! Anyone who knows anything about these Spanish Bulls will be fully aware that the poor animals would have been grazing in their fields, peaceably, out in the countryside, prior to being transported, utterly bewildered, to the urban, concreted, crowded, noisy sites chosen by their human tormentors!

Appallingly, there is, seemingly, no end to the vile, despicable and ingenious methods dreamed up by members of our own species, for their sick 'fun' days/ evenings out! These people, quite deliberately, make use of the bull's own instincts for defence, to provoke it into responding to their pathetic goading and taunting!

Please, let's not attempt to justify or excuse such behaviour by claiming that the animal victim 'enjoys' it - even whilst it's being held captive, within the designated 'arena', with crowds of cheering, gawping, often inebriated, onlookers!

Anyone, here, who's viewed the British TV series 'Monkey Life', depicting the lives of rescued animals, now safe, at the incredible 'Monkey Sanctuary' in Dorset, will be very aware of the huge efforts being made by the Director, her staff and volunteers to educate human beings, internationally, re, the very specific needs of monkeys and apes, their instincts and abilities. The video footage underpins the Sanctuary's message that such animals have suffered ( many still do..) beyond belief, when trained and exploited for human 'entertainment' - whether as beach photographers' props or as 'actors' in TV adverts...!

Uncomprehending humans have, previously, assumed 'enjoyment' on the animals' part - failing, completely, to recognise the alien nature of the training, the activities, the environment and the total denial of the monkeys' own needs, which, it's now known, cause severe health problems, usually compounded by acute stress!

So, we 21st Century humans, in Western Europe, can no longer claim ignorance, if confronted by a performing monkey or ape - the 'Monkey Sanctuary' and other 'champions' of these mammals have put the evidence and arguments before us!

Similarly with the bull - scientists have educated us to know that all 'sentient beings' can experience pain, fear, terror, hunger and thirst, just as we do.

We can choose to deny or ignore these scientifically verified findings - and participate in public events which exploit and abuse the bulls, out of some, often unadmitted, need within ourselves - but, for any educated, informed person, nowadays, that would, surely, be dishonest, wouldn't it...?

Saludos,
GC.
 

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well yes of course

but since I don't see bulls being given up completely any time soon, it's certainly the lesser of the many & various 'evils' - & a step in what most would say is the right direction
Catalonia banned bull fighting a few years ago, The Canary Islands did it yonks ago. Unfortunately bull dodging and sticking fireworks to their horns is still allowed.
 

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Hi - I'd prefer to hope that, in the case of the human perpetrators and the audiences, the 'moral dilemma' as to whether, or not, it's acceptable and justifiable to torture a live, sentient mammal to death, in a barbaric, sadistic and ritualistic manner, on the grounds that the bull was treated decently up until it was transported to the bull ring, might, within the next decade, no longer cause any human being to lie awake at night, mulling over the 'pros' and 'cons' - because bull- chasing, goading and killing by degree, slowly, for entertainment, would have been exposed for the diabolical, abhorrent, pathetic, twisted travesty of human behaviour that it is!

BTW, the horses used and abused as bait within the bull- ring are rarely even considered by those who advocate the continuation of live- animal tormenting and killing, in front of an audience! Perhaps, if more humans were made fully aware of the forms of training and the suffering inflicted on horses during the 'fights', even when not actually being mauled or even gored to death ( as so many are..), there would, surely, be a public outcry and an international campaign to get such torture stopped...!

As it is, the gullible and ignorant majority continue to be manipulated, misinformed and misled by the minority of people who participate in these medieval public spectacles - exactly as was the case with the so- called 'sport' of hunting live mammals to death, with the use of dog packs, in the UK, until a few years ago!

Unfortunately for the barbarian practitioners of said 'sports', the video camera was invented, which enabled the reality of their activities to be presented, by activist opponents, before the British public and their MPs, whilst two world- renowned experts on wild mammals ( both of them University Professors, responsible for original, peer- reviewed, published research and the supervision of PhD students) stepped up, to rubbish the ludicrous claims made by hunters to excuse and justify their determined, continuing slaughter of foxes, deer, hare and otters!
Thus, the 100 year- long campaign to end hunting of live mammals with dogs was successful and the 'Hunt Act', which would abolish the 'Sport,' finally became UK Law!

So, the bulls and horses destined for death by torture, at the behest of human barbarians, need the active support of every compassionate, clear- minded human, for whom the deliberate infliction of agonising pain, fear and ritualised death, upon another living creature, would be unimaginable, incomprehensible and utterly inexcusable!-

I really do believe that there are, in educated Western societies, even now, many more opponents of cruelty to animals than perpetrators - after all, this was my own experience during my 30 years as an 'anti- hunt' activist and campaigner! Once people were shown the truth about the brutality involved, they were, firstly, appalled, then, incensed- at having been fooled by the hunters' lies! Many then became supporters of the need for a new British law, to consign such barbarism and sadism to 'the dustbin of History!'

So, the more the opposition grows, the sooner the thousands of animal victims destined for the depravity of the bull- ring, will be safe! Those humans whose ears, eyes and minds are closed to the evidence of animal torture in the bull ring, had better start researching other forms of live entertainment (not involving live creatures), and soon....!

Saludos,
GC.
GC, I agree totally. But the moral dilemma is not whether it's acceptable to torture animals (we all agree it isn't). It's whether it is better to live a happy life with an unhappy ending, or not to live at all. How would you vote on that?
 

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GC, I agree totally. But the moral dilemma is not whether it's acceptable to torture animals (we all agree it isn't). It's whether it is better to live a happy life with an unhappy ending, or not to live at all. How would you vote on that?
... and that is almost certainly not a false dichotomy.

My vote is that it would be better not to have lived at all. The toro bravo breed might well disappear or at least greatly diminish but that would not matter.
 

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I haven't heard of that before. I watched the video and it's positively frightening to see the guy attacked at the end! I guess he had it coming to him.

Does anybody know what this is called? Do they still call it bull fighting? Or is there another name for this?
In the youtube video you can see the name for this, which is "recortes". These events take place in a bull ring.
What xabia and others describe are not really recortes, nor are they bull fighting. They are known by their own local festival name.
 

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...

Similarly with the bull - scientists have educated us to know that all 'sentient beings' can experience pain, fear, terror, hunger and thirst, just as we do.

We can choose to deny or ignore these scientifically verified findings - and participate in public events which exploit and abuse the bulls, out of some, often unadmitted, need within ourselves - but, for any educated, informed person, nowadays, that would, surely, be dishonest, wouldn't it...?

Saludos,
GC.
Got any links to these papers where "scientists have educated us to know that all 'sentient beings' can experience pain, fear, terror, hunger and thirst, just as we do."? And papers showing how these findings were verified?

This is quite a breakthrough compared to when I studied this sort of thing at postgraduate level over a decade ago. Of course things might have changed, but back then this was an area everyone seemed to agree that we knew very little about.

I'd be especially intrerested in any papers showing how sentient beings such as the common house-fly or an oyster for example feel pain and fear they way we do.
 
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