[Gringo2013]

Hi there,

When going self-employed in the UK, it´s possible to start working for yourself straight away, as long as you register as being self-employed within a certain time period, 3 months I seem to remember.

However, here in Spain, is it possible to do this, or can your Autonomo status and tax benefits (compared to being contracted) only start the day when you get your papers ´stamped´, so to speak?

My friend has been working here without an NIE number or official Autonomo status for a month.

Is his only option to stay legal to pay the huge 35% tax without the NIE and then start as Autonomo once all the paperwork gets sorted, or is it possible to include this month´s income in the tax year?

Many thanks

 

[jojo]

I dont know the answer, but I would recommend your friend should see a gestor

Jo xxx

 

[Pesky Wesky]

I dont know the answer, but I would recommend your friend should see a gestor

Jo xxx

Or better, go to the local sepe (Servicio Público de Empleo Estatal). In the menu at the top the last tab says oficinas. Click there to see where the nearest office is
Servicio Público de Empleo Estatal
I don't think you'll be able to back date it, and you'll have to pay a fine, but that's all.

 

[snikpoh]

Hi there,

When going self-employed in the UK, it´s possible to start working for yourself straight away, as long as you register as being self-employed within a certain time period, 3 months I seem to remember.

However, here in Spain, is it possible to do this, or can your Autonomo status and tax benefits (compared to being contracted) only start the day when you get your papers ´stamped´, so to speak?

My friend has been working here without an NIE number or official Autonomo status for a month.

Is his only option to stay legal to pay the huge 35% tax without the NIE and then start as Autonomo once all the paperwork gets sorted, or is it possible to include this month´s income in the tax year?

Many thanks

Why would he pay as much as 35% tax? Far too high surely? Also, he certainly would NOT be able to pay tax without a tax number (NIF == NIE).

Perhaps you meant his SS payments (sometimes wrongly referred to as autonomo)?

 

[Gringo2013]

Thanks for the replies,

An academy that my friend is working for said that it´s possible to work on a standard contract as long as you have a social security number, without an NIE/NIF, only with an EU passport, but that you pay 35% income tax, instead of the standard 21(?)%.

 

[Gringo2013]

Well, I´ve been reading into it over the weekend, and it seems like it´s not possible to backdate Spanish self-employment registration, but in the UK it´s possible to start working for yourself straight away, as long as you register with HMRC within 3 months.

Therefore, my friend would be better off doing that, rather tan paying a fine. Then close the UK business and register as Autonomo in Spain to continue trading legally once residency in Spain has been granted (because during the time my friend has worked, he has technically been a resident in the UK still).

Thanks

 

[xabiaxica]

Well, I´ve been reading into it over the weekend, and it seems like it´s not possible to backdate Spanish self-employment registration, but in the UK it´s possible to start working for yourself straight away, as long as you register with HMRC within 3 months.

Therefore, my friend would be better off doing that, rather tan paying a fine. Then close the UK business and register as Autonomo in Spain to continue trading legally once residency in Spain has been granted (because during the time my friend has worked, he has technically been a resident in the UK still).

Thanks

if he has been working here, then as far as hacienda (the tax office) is concerned, then he has been living here

 

[Gringo2013]

if he has been working here, then as far as hacienda (the tax office) is concerned, then he has been living here

Yeah right....so you´re trying to say it´s not possible for an EU citizen to work for 4 weeks while living in hotels in a foreign (EU) country, and bill the foreign company as a UK company, what a load of rubbish!

If this were true, how would any business trips be possible, or what would you rather do - try to make all foreign business people to pay taxes in the country where they are staying temporarily (in a hotel, for instance)!

It just seems like you´re trying to be argumentative, without having any actual logic or substance.

From my research, "living" in a country only starts when you become a resident there, and since my friend did not register as a resident, he is therefore a "foreign business man, conducting business from a temporary residence".

 

[Pesky Wesky]

Yeah right....so you´re trying to say it´s not possible for an EU citizen to work for 4 weeks while living in hotels in a foreign (EU) country, and bill the foreign company as a UK company, what a load of rubbish!

If this were true, how would any business trips be possible, or what would you rather do - try to make all foreign business people to pay taxes in the country where they are staying temporarily (in a hotel, for instance)!

It just seems like you´re trying to be argumentative, without having any actual logic or substance.

From my research, "living" in a country only starts when you become a resident there, and since my friend did not register as a resident, he is therefore a "foreign business man, conducting business from a temporary residence".

I think what she is saying is just what she said, that according to the tax office, he has been living here. What people do in real life may be and almost certainly is a different thing and there are many laws, customs, rules and ways of doing things that lack "logic or substance" to the foreign resident.

Here residence starts for a EU citizen after 90 days whether he does the paperwork or not

 

[xabiaxica]

Yeah right....so you´re trying to say it´s not possible for an EU citizen to work for 4 weeks while living in hotels in a foreign (EU) country, and bill the foreign company as a UK company, what a load of rubbish!

If this were true, how would any business trips be possible, or what would you rather do - try to make all foreign business people to pay taxes in the country where they are staying temporarily (in a hotel, for instance)!

It just seems like you´re trying to be argumentative, without having any actual logic or substance.

From my research, "living" in a country only starts when you become a resident there, and since my friend did not register as a resident, he is therefore a "foreign business man, conducting business from a temporary residence".

no - not being argumentative - just saying what hacienda would say, as PW said

I'm confused - you say he has been working for an academy here already (absolutely not the same as doing some work for your job/company 'back home' while on a long holiday) - then that he wants to set up a UK company, be paid by them etc etc..... it sounds like a long way round things - and probably expensive

it would be much easier to just go to a gestor & register as autónomo here - there's a new scheme where he'd pay about 50€ in SS contributions a month to start with

most people would just say 'I'm starting work next month' & take it from there

what happens between him & the academy for the time he has already worked is another matter

far better/easier if they would just give him a contract - a totally different issue

 

[Gringo2013]

no - not being argumentative - just saying what hacienda would say, as PW said

I'm confused - you say he has been working for an academy here already (absolutely not the same as doing some work for your job/company 'back home' while on a long holiday) - then that he wants to set up a UK company, be paid by them etc etc..... it sounds like a long way round things - and probably expensive

it would be much easier to just go to a gestor & register as autónomo here - there's a new scheme where he'd pay about 50€ in SS contributions a month to start with

most people would just say 'I'm starting work next month' & take it from there

what happens between him & the academy for the time he has already worked is another matter

far better/easier if they would just give him a contract - a totally different issue

Hi there,

Thanks for your post, but I don´t think you have thought this through properly, and don´t know much about the subject. This is exemplified by you suggesting that my friend employ a gestor, or indeed sign a ´contracto laboral´, both of which would be more expensive and inconvenient than doing it himself.

In fact, on my (free) advice, he has now successfully set-up as a fully registered Autonomo in Spain, as well as paying the 50 euros a month for the first six months in social security payments (then 30% of 270 euros for 6 months, then 50% of 270 euros for the final 6 months of the promotional period).

This gives him the freedom to work with whom he chooses, and he is financially better off.

However, the whole point of this thread was to ask whether it was possible to backdate this status, but it transpires that it is not.

I know this because I have now had the chance to do a lot of reading on the subject, whereas before it was time pressured, as my friend was needing a solution.

When you say "what happens between him & the academy for the time he has already worked is another matter", that is implying illegality and my friend does not (A) have the opportunity to do that, as the schools involved are dead against it, and (B) he does not have the inclination to break the law.

By putting this through the accounts of a UK business, it is completely legal and uses the bi-lateral tax agreement between Spain and the UK, and now that he is also registered as being a resident in Spain, everything will be put through the Spanish Autonomo registration from now on.

 

[xabiaxica]

Hi there,

Thanks for your post, but I don´t think you have thought this through properly, and don´t know much about the subject. This is exemplified by you suggesting that my friend employ a gestor, or indeed sign a ´contracto laboral´, both of which would be more expensive and inconvenient than doing it himself.

In fact, on my (free) advice, he has now successfully set-up as a fully registered Autonomo in Spain, as well as paying the 50 euros a month for the first six months in social security payments (then 30% of 270 euros for 6 months, then 50% of 270 euros for the final 6 months of the promotional period).

This gives him the freedom to work with whom he chooses, and he is financially better off.

However, the whole point of this thread was to ask whether it was possible to backdate this status, but it transpires that it is not.

I know this because I have now had the chance to do a lot of reading on the subject, whereas before it was time pressured, as my friend was needing a solution.

When you say "what happens between him & the academy for the time he has already worked is another matter", that is implying illegality and my friend does not (A) have the opportunity to do that, as the schools involved are dead against it, and (B) he does not have the inclination to break the law.

By putting this through the accounts of a UK business, it is completely legal and uses the bi-lateral tax agreement between Spain and the UK, and now that he is also registered as being a resident in Spain, everything will be put through the Spanish Autonomo registration from now on.

ahh - so he already had the UK business up & running?

then yes, that would make sense, & be cost-effective - it just seemed to me like a long, and expensive way round it if he was setting one up from scratch

as for suggesting anything illegal - I'd be the last to suggest that - it's one of my pet hates & something I campaign against locally

but there are creative ways of being legal & paying your way

 

[Gringo2013]

ahh - so he already had the UK business up & running?

then yes, that would make sense, & be cost-effective - it just seemed to me like a long, and expensive way round it if he was setting one up from scratch

as for suggesting anything illegal - I'd be the last to suggest that - it's one of my pet hates & something I campaign against locally

but there are creative ways of being legal & paying your way

Nope, as stated before, he is registering a new UK company for this.

As I said, it´s possible to start a business in the UK straight away, without registering first, as long as you register within 3 months and 1 week of starting. Otherwise, you get a 100-pound fine.

There is no ´creative´way around this situation, unless it is illegal. If you can suggest any way, then please do so, otherwise please do not elude to such things.

 

[gus-lopez]

Deleted . Replying to wrong post ! :lol:

 

[xabiaxica]

Nope, as stated before, he is registering a new UK company for this.

As I said, it´s possible to start a business in the UK straight away, without registering first, as long as you register within 3 months and 1 week of starting. Otherwise, you get a 100-pound fine.

There is no ´creative´way around this situation, unless it is illegal. If you can suggest any way, then please do so, otherwise please do not elude to such things.

at least it's sorted out now

he could simply have post-dated his invoices to the academy - I in fact only issue invoices quarterly in any case - so work done in October isn't invoiced until the end of December - nothing illegal about it

he would still pay tax on everything he had earned in that quarter, although admittedly he would be a an 'autónomo' payment short - but hacienda would be unlikely to be in the lest bit bothered about that - they'd just be happy that he had registered at all!

 

[Gringo2013]

^Your advice is dubious at best.

To stay legal, everything has to be done properly.

My friend would not want to end up in court for working illegally, tax evasion, and defrauding the social security service, which is what you are proposing.

The reason I'm posting today is because the twist to this story (for the benefit of anyone reading this and wanting to learn about the situation) is that a UK company/entity cannot trade with a Spanish company without the UK company registering from UK VAT as well.

From my research on UK tax/financial forums, this can easily take 1-3 months, without fraud checks, and significantly longer if they investigate you for fraud at the time of inception.

As the company income is under £79,000 (approx), it is not necessary for my friend to register for VAT as a mandatory requirement, but instead for this situation, he must voluntarily register for VAT to satisfy the Spanish company's "fiscal tax code" requirement, and for them to be able to confirm the correct legal and VAT status of the UK company on the VIES online register.

UK VAT can, however, be retrospectively applied for, for upto 4 years after beginning trading.

Regards

 

[Pesky Wesky]

To stay legal, everything has to be done properly.

Surely the best way for your friend to stay legal is to go directly to the authorities in Spain and the UK and ask what to do, and not waste your time by getting you to ask on forums where the information could well be wrong or misleading or maybe right!

 

[xabiaxica]

^Your advice is dubious at best.

To stay legal, everything has to be done properly.

My friend would not want to end up in court for working illegally, tax evasion, and defrauding the social security service, which is what you are proposing.

The reason I'm posting today is because the twist to this story (for the benefit of anyone reading this and wanting to learn about the situation) is that a UK company/entity cannot trade with a Spanish company without the UK company registering from UK VAT as well.

From my research on UK tax/financial forums, this can easily take 1-3 months, without fraud checks, and significantly longer if they investigate you for fraud at the time of inception.

As the company income is under £79,000 (approx), it is not necessary for my friend to register for VAT as a mandatory requirement, but instead for this situation, he must voluntarily register for VAT to satisfy the Spanish company's "fiscal tax code" requirement, and for them to be able to confirm the correct legal and VAT status of the UK company on the VIES online register.

UK VAT can, however, be retrospectively applied for, for upto 4 years after beginning trading.

Regards

I'm not saying that it's what he - or anyone - should do

it's just what the vast majority do do - they start something to see if it works - if it doesn't look as if it will earn enough to be worth it after a few weeks then they would/should stop & no-one including hacienda would be worried about it

& yes, that is interesting about the IVA/VAT situation

I'm registered for IVA for translation work - I had to charge IVA from the very first invoice - & I earn nothing like 79.000!

I had an issue recently with a 'company' here in Spain from which I bought some office supplies - I needed an IVA invoice

they claimed that because they were an online company registered in the UK & their income was below the threshold, they didn't need to be registered for IVA here - even though the owner & the 'warehouse' are actually in Spain & the majority of their business was in Spain

I knew this to be rubbish a) there's no threshold here & b) they're in Spain for heaven's sake! - & my gestor threatened to report them


the website disappeared..........

 

[gus-lopez]

It is perfectly legal to apply for autonomo /set up an Sl or sll & then to start work. What you cannot do is issue invoices until the paperwork is all done.

 

[Gringo2013]

xabiachica - it seems to me that you're the type of person who has to feel justified in their comments, and you have displayed this personality trait. I'm not saying you're a bad person, as you didn't just tell me to F-off, but giving people financial and legal advice on the basis of criminal activity is not appropriate, regardless of how other people behave. That is no excuse in court, and I would hate to see someone up in court after following your dodgy advice, so this thread is a GOOD source of information with the research that I have done.

By the way, in Spain, if you are IVA registered (in Spain, or VAT reg. in UK), and the other company is registered as well, then you don't put the IVA/VAT on the invoice, so it seems strange about you trying to charge IVA, as I imagine the other company was also already registered.

Maybe you need to do thorough research as I now have, otherwise you could well end up in a problematic situation with the law.


Pesky Wesky - there is no point spending money without good cause. I am an intelligent person, and should have probably researched it more before posting on here, but I do not have the internet at home, am using internet cafes, am very busy and hoped that someone could help me....obviously not here!

Gus-lopez - the point is that you need to apply/register as Autonomo in Spain BEFORE beginning trading.


Regards