From reading this forum it is clear that there are an awful lot of Egyptian men keen to use western woman for one purpose or another. My question is, do any of you know of any Egyptian men who have genuine relationships with a western woman and have not got an ulterior motive?!
Are there any genuine Egyptian men?
AMT123
- Status
41 - 60 of 176 Posts
In the west, unmarried couples are more loyal and more honest with each other than married couples in here, and that's what makes marriages easier in there, and that's the problem in here, respect!
Thanks guys, it does make me feel better knowing I am not the only one who went trhough this. The reason why Im getting counselling is because like I said my self esteem has reached all time low and during our relationship I constantly kept asking myself what is it that I've done wrong, why is it not working out? I blamed myself, I loved (still do really) this man (or maybe who I thought he was) so much and many of the situations that arose left me feeling so confused and questioning my own judgement. He was happy for us to celebrate Christmas, with presents, cards and a christmas tree in our house, in return he expected me not to ever go and visit my close friend if her boyfriend was in the house which in his opinion was something that a "proper woman" would know not to do. And I would obey this ridiculous request for awhile, naively thinking that relationships were all about compromise. I gave up a lot of things that I used to enjoy doing in order to keep him happy and it took a bit of time for me to realise that compromise was only from my side, he was only ever happy to do something for me if it suited him (ie Xmas, he liked the idea, not the religious, but cultural part of it, it was simply a fun thing to celebrate). If we went out with friends (mostly his male friends) he'd always took me with him but I was expected to just sit there and agree with everything he said, I once made a silly joke about him and we all laughed and after coming back home there was a huge fight, how could I ever humiliate him like that in public.
Before he met his wife, while working in Sinai he had an older girlfriend from Netherlands and he was going to move to live with her but it didn't work out in the end. That made me think that going to Europe or US was always on his agenda even though he always used to say that his life was better in Egypt and he never wanted to leave his country in a first place. But like I said before he was too proud to admit that he sank to that low level of using another human being to have a chance for better life, too proud to even admit it to himself.
And don't think I have just decided to ignore all the warning signs when I met him. He was a fun, sucsessful, hamdsome man who would take me out for drinks, clubbing,, and complement me on how beautiful I looked in that short dress. We would get a bottle of wine on Friday night, watch a movie, made love and things were great. He seemed to be so westernised. 2 years later I found myself shopping for clothes, measuring whether the blouse I was about to buy was modest enough and always buying vests to wear underneath my tops because he'd get angry if the outline of my bra was visible.
I found his wedding video on his laptop once, it was filmed in Egypt, his English wife wore a normal wedding dress, showing her arms and a bit of chest but pictures they took after he moved to UK to live with her showed her on nights out being completely covered. His attitude probably stayed relaxed until they properly started living together. And that's why he left because she probably never fulfilled his idea of how a woman should be. And I know she loved him, had he been more patient she'd definitely convert to Islam and live unhappily for the rest of her life, so in a way he did her a favour.
I really thought that if people really love each other all that stuff won't matter but I've learned the hard way. Islam is not only the religion, its the way of life. And for majority of Muslims Islam is not a faith, it's a fact, undisputable, unquestionable fact. It comes with 100s of rules that need to be followed.
The way we were raised, all our lives being told that when 2 people are in a relationship they are faithful to each other, that cheating is not acceptable - imagine a guy/girl shows up and you fall madly in love. And then they tell you that even though they love you they have to sleep with other people, you wouldn't stand for that would you, even if they were the best thing that's ever happened to you. Because that's how you were raised, that's what they thought you, it's an undisputable norm in your world.
And this is how they think about things that are trivial to us, it's rooted so deeply in their souls that you can not expect a compromise.
That's why again I think that these relationships can work out but you need to forgive who you were before as a woman and if you decided that your new partner and life with him are worth it, then good on you.
Before he met his wife, while working in Sinai he had an older girlfriend from Netherlands and he was going to move to live with her but it didn't work out in the end. That made me think that going to Europe or US was always on his agenda even though he always used to say that his life was better in Egypt and he never wanted to leave his country in a first place. But like I said before he was too proud to admit that he sank to that low level of using another human being to have a chance for better life, too proud to even admit it to himself.
And don't think I have just decided to ignore all the warning signs when I met him. He was a fun, sucsessful, hamdsome man who would take me out for drinks, clubbing,, and complement me on how beautiful I looked in that short dress. We would get a bottle of wine on Friday night, watch a movie, made love and things were great. He seemed to be so westernised. 2 years later I found myself shopping for clothes, measuring whether the blouse I was about to buy was modest enough and always buying vests to wear underneath my tops because he'd get angry if the outline of my bra was visible.
I found his wedding video on his laptop once, it was filmed in Egypt, his English wife wore a normal wedding dress, showing her arms and a bit of chest but pictures they took after he moved to UK to live with her showed her on nights out being completely covered. His attitude probably stayed relaxed until they properly started living together. And that's why he left because she probably never fulfilled his idea of how a woman should be. And I know she loved him, had he been more patient she'd definitely convert to Islam and live unhappily for the rest of her life, so in a way he did her a favour.
I really thought that if people really love each other all that stuff won't matter but I've learned the hard way. Islam is not only the religion, its the way of life. And for majority of Muslims Islam is not a faith, it's a fact, undisputable, unquestionable fact. It comes with 100s of rules that need to be followed.
The way we were raised, all our lives being told that when 2 people are in a relationship they are faithful to each other, that cheating is not acceptable - imagine a guy/girl shows up and you fall madly in love. And then they tell you that even though they love you they have to sleep with other people, you wouldn't stand for that would you, even if they were the best thing that's ever happened to you. Because that's how you were raised, that's what they thought you, it's an undisputable norm in your world.
And this is how they think about things that are trivial to us, it's rooted so deeply in their souls that you can not expect a compromise.
That's why again I think that these relationships can work out but you need to forgive who you were before as a woman and if you decided that your new partner and life with him are worth it, then good on you.
I don't understand what the objection is to "halal dating". Muslims get to know each other through meetings on their own before they get married but with the approval of their families. Some of the older generations obviously didn't do that. I and others in my family have been on "halal" dates (although I have only heard the term recently so I have never referred to my "dates" in that way before). I think it's a great idea.
As for your other comments, I think they are ridiculous. If someone was on this site commenting on life in Egypt without having ever even visited the country, I would consider their comments hold no weight. But you feel that you are in a position to comment on how Muslims practise their religion and assimilate in other countries without having any experience of the same?!
Ms karakas,
Compromise is something, and sacrifice is another thing that's totally different.
You said you loved him, still do according to your words, do you think he's really worth that?? A person that's in love is supposed to be accepting his/her partner the way they are, did he accept you the way you are??
You haven't done anything wrong if you want my opinion, except for trusting the wrong "man".
You lost a battle, still got a war to win, so just get ready for that lol.
Best of luck
Compromise is something, and sacrifice is another thing that's totally different.
You said you loved him, still do according to your words, do you think he's really worth that?? A person that's in love is supposed to be accepting his/her partner the way they are, did he accept you the way you are??
You haven't done anything wrong if you want my opinion, except for trusting the wrong "man".
You lost a battle, still got a war to win, so just get ready for that lol.
Best of luck
Hi there Mr/Ms,
I didn't object on the "Halal" date, I was trying to show you that what Sam said (If the muslim world would just accept boyfriend/girlfriend relationships I think things would be much easier) Did NOT need YOUR objection on it cause it is already happening!
As for your comments on my own, describing them by the word "ridiculous" and trying to question my credibility instead of telling me that I am wrong?? That tells a lot, specially considering that fact that you did that before when you asked me if I ever been to Bham or not instead of telling me if I was wrong or right, and sorry for saying this, but the way you're turning the conversations?? It doesn't sound like you got too much to say about it except for questioning the credibility and being rude! And I don't think there's any need to be rude, but if you think there is, then be my guest, but I'm not like that!
Good luck!
There's a distinction between halal dating and being considered to be a boyfriend/girlfriend.
I don't really see why we should debate the assimilation of Muslims in Western society on a website for expats living or considering moving to Egypt. That's why I don't get into debates with you about it. Of course I have thoughts, opinions and experiences both personally and professionally. But at the same time, I think some of the comments you make about Muslims are inappropriate, sweeping statements that often don't appear to be founded on any personal knowledge or experience and I don't understand why you are posting them on this website as it has no relevance to expats seeking to live or living in Egypt.
At the same time, it was not my intention to be rude and I equally wish you good luck.
Joined
·
789 Posts
Karakas,
So much of what you have said, actually everything, is so familiar. Enjoying your time pre-relationship, drinking etc etc. It starts with a compromise, and then you realise there is no compromise, it's only you being the forgiving one.
Just be thankful you have got out alone, I mean childless. I still have deep concerns about the future of my daughter. I wish for her all the best in life, freedom and free thinking. And yet at 2 years old I find photos of her on my ex's facebook page of her in Cairo dressed in hijab. And she knows how to pray (well she does the moves and says Allah Akbar). She's only just turned two as well. She loves her Daddy and I could never deprive her of him or him of her, but I do worry about her future, a lot. I can't and won't tell her who she should be or what religion she should follow, she should make her own informed decision after being presented with all the facts, and I would support her in her choice, be it Muslim, Christian, Buddhist even - but I know from the father's side of the family there is no choice. It's like you say - it's not a religion, it's a way of life, and it's the only way of life - everything else is WRONG.
Can you believe she knows how to pray, but she can't count to five in Arabic?! MensEtManus's post about the religious fanaticism really sums it up - religion is no longer a choice but forced down our throats.
Okay, so with that statement I am preparing to get flamed... but that is my justified opinion.
Sam
So much of what you have said, actually everything, is so familiar. Enjoying your time pre-relationship, drinking etc etc. It starts with a compromise, and then you realise there is no compromise, it's only you being the forgiving one.
Just be thankful you have got out alone, I mean childless. I still have deep concerns about the future of my daughter. I wish for her all the best in life, freedom and free thinking. And yet at 2 years old I find photos of her on my ex's facebook page of her in Cairo dressed in hijab. And she knows how to pray (well she does the moves and says Allah Akbar). She's only just turned two as well. She loves her Daddy and I could never deprive her of him or him of her, but I do worry about her future, a lot. I can't and won't tell her who she should be or what religion she should follow, she should make her own informed decision after being presented with all the facts, and I would support her in her choice, be it Muslim, Christian, Buddhist even - but I know from the father's side of the family there is no choice. It's like you say - it's not a religion, it's a way of life, and it's the only way of life - everything else is WRONG.
Can you believe she knows how to pray, but she can't count to five in Arabic?! MensEtManus's post about the religious fanaticism really sums it up - religion is no longer a choice but forced down our throats.
Okay, so with that statement I am preparing to get flamed... but that is my justified opinion.
Sam
You don't need to explain the distinctions between the "Halal dating" and the boyfriend/girlfriend thing, it doesn't concern me, at all.....
As for the your "I don't really see why we should debate the assimilation of Muslims in Western society"?? Last time I checked, people who were asking those questions were ...... Westerners? Living in the "Western society" or gonna move there along with their MUSLIM partners??!! :confused2:
You're saying that's why you never get into debates with me? Who said you ever did? You just question my credibility and that's it lol
May be you think I'm a stupid person since I'm Egyptian, but I'd like to think that I'm not that stupid, or at least I'm not stupid enough to talk about things that I don't......Know enough about them???
Have a nice time
I don't think the questions usually concern what are the issues for westerners marrying Muslims and returning to Western countries. They usually relate to issues that arise from living in Egypt. There has been some discussions on the issues that can arise from mixed marriages which could refer to life in any country but I still think your opinions went beyond the matters being debated and weren't borne from any personal experience.
Do I think you are stupid because you are Egyptian?! My posts are usually about how we shouldn't stereotype Egyptians! So no I don't believe that Egyptians are stupid.
Anyway, perhaps we should just agree to disagree.
Well,
At first, my posts “held no weight” cause I’m not a resident of a country, not cause I was wrong, just cause I didn’t live there! :confused2:
Then my posts became irrelevant though it was talking about the topic that’s being discussed! :confused2:
Then –and again, talking about my posts- they became inappropriate, sweeping statements! :confused2:
Then they became irrelevant again, and they’re born from no personal experiences, again! :confused2:
Obviously I have no choice but to agree with anything you wanna say!
Good luck!
I find it fascinating that people can discuss religion, economics or politics without disagreeing or being rude to one another but as soon as it comes to relationships and especially cross cultural ones, everyone gets all offended and personal.
I'm Muslim and British, young and a female.
I was born and raised in the UK to Asian parents.
I chose to move to Egypt just as I choose to conduct myself in a certain manner, some may call some aspects 'Islamic', to me its all about having morals.
Consider the juxtaposition of a girl who does not drink alcohol or date in the Western manner of describing a date but who can equally go out with friends, have a great time and not be fully covered at all.
Does that make me less of a Muslim than a hijab wearing girl who sleeps around or who drinks?? Does that mean I will allow a husband to wed me and another 3??
No it doesn't.
Any person, of any faith, colour, gender or background has to find their own niche and carve it as they want. I know my religion and try to follow it daily and not in the dogmatic manner some may think but in a more spiritual manner.
I'm also English and that has also affected how I am, how I approach life and people.
I'm also female and living now in what is definitely a man's world, one in which I can't even communicate with the population in their mother tongue. Every day I am asked "where are you from", "what are you"...does that mean that I will curl up and not be me??
Hell no. I just try to live my life within my rules, religious, cultural, personal or whatever else. Its sometimes a struggle, yes, when I go to a club and am asked 50 times a night where I am from or when I can see on someones face that they believe me to be some wealthy foreigner so they can try to rip me off. I'm not generalising as I now have some amazing friends here and I thank the Man upstairs for that but its been a challenge and mostly, the other expats are the ones that have made comments that hurt or talked behind my back...surely I must have some man on the scene or surely theres more to my story....no. There really isnt.
Whether its Muslims assimilating in the West or Westerns assimilating in a Muslim country, believe me, I have never fit in but I have written on these aspects and how?? By being an individual, accepting others as they are whether I like them or not, the ones I don't like I just stay away from and those that I like I become friends with.
I've met some genuine men here but many more that are looking for money, money, money and maybe a dash of sex thrown in. Why? As far as I can tell, its the culture here to have a foreign "wife" for business purposes, shes the one putting the money up for his latest "business venture".
He loses the money, abuses the woman and breaks her....its a story which is repeated often and I really don’t want to offend anyone who has been through that at all, but being with someone from a such a diametrically different culture is difficult enough without the person having a history of ex partners etc. My background is the same as Egyptian culture and I myself wouldn’t marry someone without firstly speaking fluent Arabic and also after knowing them a hell of a long time, meeting all their family, friends etc.
Surely there should be more focus on women, helping them to be stronger, develop lives without men and being happy in them, being able to be independent and to live a full and happy life??
I joined this and other forums over a year ago when I first decided to move to Egypt and yet I only post very infrequently...why you may ask. Well firstly, I know a lot about my religion and therefore Dead Guy, sorry but you’re wrong, you can meet someone of the other gender with a view to marrying them in a halal way, of course you can. You meet in a public place, with a chaperone and you talk.
The second reason why I don’t post a lot is because I can always see the Western and Islamic perspectives. I might not agree but I understand where the point is coming from and rather than this being a plus, its usually cause for conflict. I have made a career of multicultural dialogue and I encourage it, probably because I myself am situated between two worlds, two cultures. But I am interested in why so many people believe that two worlds, Western and Islamic are unable to live together in a cohesive way. I am living proof that it can and does happen
I'm Muslim and British, young and a female.
I was born and raised in the UK to Asian parents.
I chose to move to Egypt just as I choose to conduct myself in a certain manner, some may call some aspects 'Islamic', to me its all about having morals.
Consider the juxtaposition of a girl who does not drink alcohol or date in the Western manner of describing a date but who can equally go out with friends, have a great time and not be fully covered at all.
Does that make me less of a Muslim than a hijab wearing girl who sleeps around or who drinks?? Does that mean I will allow a husband to wed me and another 3??
No it doesn't.
Any person, of any faith, colour, gender or background has to find their own niche and carve it as they want. I know my religion and try to follow it daily and not in the dogmatic manner some may think but in a more spiritual manner.
I'm also English and that has also affected how I am, how I approach life and people.
I'm also female and living now in what is definitely a man's world, one in which I can't even communicate with the population in their mother tongue. Every day I am asked "where are you from", "what are you"...does that mean that I will curl up and not be me??
Hell no. I just try to live my life within my rules, religious, cultural, personal or whatever else. Its sometimes a struggle, yes, when I go to a club and am asked 50 times a night where I am from or when I can see on someones face that they believe me to be some wealthy foreigner so they can try to rip me off. I'm not generalising as I now have some amazing friends here and I thank the Man upstairs for that but its been a challenge and mostly, the other expats are the ones that have made comments that hurt or talked behind my back...surely I must have some man on the scene or surely theres more to my story....no. There really isnt.
Whether its Muslims assimilating in the West or Westerns assimilating in a Muslim country, believe me, I have never fit in but I have written on these aspects and how?? By being an individual, accepting others as they are whether I like them or not, the ones I don't like I just stay away from and those that I like I become friends with.
I've met some genuine men here but many more that are looking for money, money, money and maybe a dash of sex thrown in. Why? As far as I can tell, its the culture here to have a foreign "wife" for business purposes, shes the one putting the money up for his latest "business venture".
He loses the money, abuses the woman and breaks her....its a story which is repeated often and I really don’t want to offend anyone who has been through that at all, but being with someone from a such a diametrically different culture is difficult enough without the person having a history of ex partners etc. My background is the same as Egyptian culture and I myself wouldn’t marry someone without firstly speaking fluent Arabic and also after knowing them a hell of a long time, meeting all their family, friends etc.
Surely there should be more focus on women, helping them to be stronger, develop lives without men and being happy in them, being able to be independent and to live a full and happy life??
I joined this and other forums over a year ago when I first decided to move to Egypt and yet I only post very infrequently...why you may ask. Well firstly, I know a lot about my religion and therefore Dead Guy, sorry but you’re wrong, you can meet someone of the other gender with a view to marrying them in a halal way, of course you can. You meet in a public place, with a chaperone and you talk.
The second reason why I don’t post a lot is because I can always see the Western and Islamic perspectives. I might not agree but I understand where the point is coming from and rather than this being a plus, its usually cause for conflict. I have made a career of multicultural dialogue and I encourage it, probably because I myself am situated between two worlds, two cultures. But I am interested in why so many people believe that two worlds, Western and Islamic are unable to live together in a cohesive way. I am living proof that it can and does happen
Hi Ms. New Gal,
I’d like to thank you for your post, simply cause it was objective and constructive, not to mention that you said many things that was in my own mind, but duh, could I let it out without getting kicked lol
As for your comment for me about the “Halal date” thing, I’d like to quote you first,
I’d like to thank you again for your post, and wish you a real pleasant time in here and everywhere.
Have a nice time
I’d like to thank you for your post, simply cause it was objective and constructive, not to mention that you said many things that was in my own mind, but duh, could I let it out without getting kicked lol
As for your comment for me about the “Halal date” thing, I’d like to quote you first,
So as you said, I think it’s a manner’s issue, being in a date doesn’t mean that sex or so will be involved, and being in a “Halal” one doesn’t mean that sex will be excluded (I've mentioned sex only cause almost all the objections on the "dating" thing would come from there, many other things would get more objections, but that's what would get most of them); So my opinion was the same as yours, it all depends on what kinda person people are, and what kinda character he/she got, and that’s what made me laugh so much when I heard it, it was just a name, but it was justified and introduced in a way that claims that it's much more than that.
I’d like to thank you again for your post, and wish you a real pleasant time in here and everywhere.
Have a nice time
Well I know I wasn't wrong, but some of your posts (well almost all) display your dislike....You haven't said anything wrong, so why wouldn't I like your post?
Good luck
Anyway.....
Joined
·
277 Posts
completely off-topic.....
@New Gal: You picked up on the western view, the muslim view, and not sure if picking up on the coptic view/vibe. Then I guess you have yourself one wonderful cocktail of views
I think you might enjoy reading up on Mona Eltahawy (Mona Eltahawy Blog) - you sound just like her. A muslim gal that doesn't want to be defined by what she wears on her head or how she acts in life. She considers religion not a thing to show-off, but a something to practice between oneself and their deity.
@New Gal: You picked up on the western view, the muslim view, and not sure if picking up on the coptic view/vibe. Then I guess you have yourself one wonderful cocktail of views
I think you might enjoy reading up on Mona Eltahawy (Mona Eltahawy Blog) - you sound just like her. A muslim gal that doesn't want to be defined by what she wears on her head or how she acts in life. She considers religion not a thing to show-off, but a something to practice between oneself and their deity.
Thanks MensEtManus, I will take a look at that.completely off-topic.....
@New Gal: You picked up on the western view, the muslim view, and not sure if picking up on the coptic view/vibe. Then I guess you have yourself one wonderful cocktail of views
I think you might enjoy reading up on Mona Eltahawy (Mona Eltahawy Blog) - you sound just like her. A muslim gal that doesn't want to be defined by what she wears on her head or how she acts in life. She considers religion not a thing to show-off, but a something to practice between oneself and their deity.
I have unfortunately had some bad experiences from on-line forums, people don't like it when you defy the myth and its usually always British/Western women that hate my posts...but hey thats their opinion as I have mine also.
Let me finish your sentence lol
( but some of your posts (well almost all) display your dislike.... ) Islam???
If that's what you meant then I'd hate to disappoint you, I'm not a hater, well, I am, but I hate stupidity and shallowness (Of ANY religion), not all "Christians" are my friends, but in the mean while not cause someone doesn't share my beliefs means he/she goes to my hate list (As long as they're thinking the same of course)
I do have Muslim friends, and I'd never trade them for anyone else, but in here? It is a very hard thing to find a normal person who's thinking objectively, and sorry for saying this, but if you were an Egyptian Muslim and happened to be heard saying ANYTHING of what you said in your original post?? I won't tell you what would happen to you AND your family, but you can guess, I had to stop contacting some of my Muslim friends just to stop the hassle they been through and the accusations thrown on them cause of being a friend with a Christian, which would lead to a much more dangerous stuff other than the "looks" and "accusations", but what can I say about it?? As you said, we should just TRY to live our lives.......
Anyway, sorry if I sound that hateful, and sorry if I disappointed you with this post, cause I did disappoint you by agreeing with your first post lol
Good luck
Not just Islam, you seem to dislike most things relating to your identity, your Egyptian nationality, being male etc etc.
I have few Muslim friends myself DG and its mostly cos of the lack of education, morality and informed opinions. But then again, you find that in people of other faiths, backgrounds and communities also. Islam itself isn't at fault, its followers need to help themselves also.
But I also don't like "educated Westerners" attempting to define Islam and most importantly its followers without any working knowledge: its ignorance again rearing its ugly head.
I don't know what religion you are or anything but I think the first thing that really comes through your posts (of which I have read many and wanted to reply but have refrained) is your real disdain towards Egypt and Egyptians and that is somewhat sad.
Any country in the world has issues and problems but to turn that inwards is not good at all, its very damaging. Anyone, anywhere can forge an identity for themselves, educate themselves, work and provide for themselves and their families, it just takes more in some countries than in others.
Watch 1947 Earth, read about partition in India and the far reaching consequences of it, issues some of us are still living with today and realise that its the same the world over. The only difference is how we each CHOSE to live with the past.
Well, I don't like the current "Egypt" that much, the real problem about here isn't how many problems "we" got, but it's about denying that there's any kind of problems......
Things here are pretty mixed up, and not the natural mix that would lead to somewhere, but everything in here is TOO mixed with other things, education is mixed with politics, politics mixed with religion, religion is mixed with culture, I can keep going for days, but what's the point?
India changed, just like any other country that did, cause people in there wanted to do something, and that's what makes me sad about it, we got troubles, but what's anyone in here doing to solve it? The majority of people are in a need for money, but instead of looking for jobs they find ways to rip it off, instead of making what they want, they just steal it from someone who made it.................And those who are willing to do anything, they're either not allowed to do it, or they just got sick and tired of trying, and I don't blame them for that
Good luck
Things here are pretty mixed up, and not the natural mix that would lead to somewhere, but everything in here is TOO mixed with other things, education is mixed with politics, politics mixed with religion, religion is mixed with culture, I can keep going for days, but what's the point?
India changed, just like any other country that did, cause people in there wanted to do something, and that's what makes me sad about it, we got troubles, but what's anyone in here doing to solve it? The majority of people are in a need for money, but instead of looking for jobs they find ways to rip it off, instead of making what they want, they just steal it from someone who made it.................And those who are willing to do anything, they're either not allowed to do it, or they just got sick and tired of trying, and I don't blame them for that
Good luck
41 - 60 of 176 Posts
- Status
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
