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American expat in France trying to transfer IRA

7.3K views 24 replies 12 participants last post by  user9823  
#1 ·
Hi all,

I've moved from California to France and received the dreaded message as I connected to my Fidelity brokerage account: "Did you move to France?" or something of the sort, on an instance I forgot to turn the VPN on...I was then left with no choice but to declare my French residence (or face perjury).
I'm now in search of a broker that'll let me open a Roth IRA to transfer my Fidelity assets to.
The so-called internationals-friendly brokerages have all recently updated their rules to exclude Americans living abroad (at least EU, Australia, some parts of Asia): Degiro, Schwab, InteractiveBrokers, Zackstrade (thank you FATCA).

Has anyone experience with a broker that allows for American expats in Europe?
Or am I essentially forced to close my accounts and sit on my retirement?

Thank you for your insights dear community!
Cheers,
Quentin
 
#2 ·
You might have a look here to see if they might suit your needs.

 
#6 ·
SDFCU, like most banks, is not a good option for your IRA, because they don't provide brokerage services. So, you would only be able to invest in CDs, which pay below the inflation rate.

Interactive Brokers is the only US brokerage of which I am aware that will open accounts for some US expats depending on what the country of residence is. You'll have to check to see how they treat French residents.
 
#4 ·
@coupsdebambous -- In my view, where there's a will, there is a way. My first step would be to open a "Self-directed" IRA account (by law, IRA custodians must be U.S. based.) There are two basic types of self directed custodians. The first and oldest type are custodians that basically approve and facilitate any investments you want to make (including opening up a new brokerage account.) The second type of custodian (typically advertise "checkbook control") will typically form an LLC with the IRA as 100% owner and you as the manager, allowing you to make any investments you want (within the legal requirements authorized,) on behalf of the LLC. The LLC, as a single member LLC, would be a "disregarded entity," so no tax returns will be required (there are custodian reporting required, on any IRA, when the value reaches certain thresholds.) Of course you'll need to choose a custodian that accepts overseas clients (most will.) I'd also recommend a custodian that charges flat fees versus a percentage of your account (these can get really expensive if you have a large account.)

You might also do a search on this forum. Just a month or so ago, someone else asked the same question and another poster recommended a broker (that I'd never heard of) that will accept Americans living in France, as clients. Of course rules always change -- so the post, even though new, may not be viable.

There are also third party "investment advisors" that will act as your IRA custodian, that focus on expats.

It all depends what kind of investor/trader you are or want to be. Cheers, 255
 
#15 ·
Hmmm. That's odd. Fidelity knew I lived in France and I never had a problem with my 401(k) there. They just sent the correspondence to me here. When my employer was bought in an acquisition, the new company housed their 401(k) plans at Vanguard, and Vanguard knows I'm in France as well. No requirement to close the account or transfer funds. No negative comment of any kind, in fact.

I wonder if IRAs and 401(k) plans differ in this regard?
 
#16 ·
Oh, I did much the same. Had a 401K that was with Fidelity and had already opened an IRA at Vanguard. I think the difference is that I basically just let both funds sit (and grow) once I left the US and couldn't (and didn't) contribute any further money to either one. Ultimately, I did a rollover from the 401K to the Vanguard IRA, simply to consolidate the two funds - and the guy from Vanguard I spoke to by phone was very helpful. This was, however, some 20 years ago - and again, no further contributions - just some shifting around from one Vanguard fund to two others.

Started drawing down the IRA a few years ago and have had not a whimper out of Vanguard. As long as you're keeping it all simple and not getting them involved in potential financial tax matters, they don't seem to mind. They even graciously accepted and made the necessary adjustments to withholding rates and all when I renounced my US citizenship a few years back.

I think it makes a difference if you're still actively managing investments in the account or if you are trying to make further contributions to the IRA. (There are legal ways to do so, but they can get complicated - at least for the company holding the fund.)
 
#19 ·
Oh, I did much the same. Had a 401K that was with Fidelity and had already opened an IRA at Vanguard. I think the difference is that I basically just let both funds sit (and grow) once I left the US and couldn't (and didn't) contribute any further money to either one. Ultimately, I did a rollover from the 401K to the Vanguard IRA, simply to consolidate the two funds - and the guy from Vanguard I spoke to by phone was very helpful. This was, however, some 20 years ago - and again, no further contributions - just some shifting around from one Vanguard fund to two others.

Started drawing down the IRA a few years ago and have had not a whimper out of Vanguard. As long as you're keeping it all simple and not getting them involved in potential financial tax matters, they don't seem to mind. They even graciously accepted and made the necessary adjustments to withholding rates and all when I renounced my US citizenship a few years back.

I think it makes a difference if you're still actively managing investments in the account or if you are trying to make further contributions to the IRA. (There are legal ways to do so, but they can get complicated - at least for the company holding the fund.)
The reason that brokerages like Vanguard and Fidelity are likely to freeze your account if they find out that you no longer live in the US has nothing to do with taxes. What they worry about is that having clients in foreign jurisdictions may be regarded by the financial regulators in those jurisdictions as doing business there without being registered and without complying with local regulations. Compliance with foreign regulators is expensive and not worth it for the few customers.

But the brokerages are quirky. Fidelity froze my IRAs when they discovered that I had moved abroad. att a time when I was neither making contributions nor taking distributions. Clearly there are other cases where Fidelity and Vanguard have not done so. I can't explain the discrepancy, but the take-home message is that they might freeze your account at any time. So, it is prudent for expats to make every effort to avoid letting them find out.
 
#17 ·
@Aloysius_ -- Note that @coupsdebambous stated, in the first post, to this thread, that these are fairly "recent changes." Both 401Ks and IRAs are U.S. based trusts. Hence the 401K administrators and the IRA custodians are both U.S. based. Your 401K Administrator appears to be your current employer (or a third party administrator, possibly even Fidelity or Vanguard.) I wouldn't think there would be any restrictions with a foreign residents "participating" in a U.S. based employer's retirement plan, other than potential tax compliance issues (really just reporting complications) with the U.S. or your country of residence (France.) Since 401Ks are "collective" plans (for the most part) and IRAs are singular plans, I think your observation may be correct, for the vendors mentioned. I haven't seen any changes in self-directed IRA Custodians or solo 401K Administrators newly restricting foreign residents (of course some of these custodians/administrators didn't mess with foreign clients to begin with.) Cheers, 255
 
#18 ·
Just a note about SDFCU. Your experience may differ, but we've found that they make the rural French pace of business look breezy.

Through ACA, they opened an account for my other half, living here in France, so hurrah for that. However, it was a frustrating experience all round. She had lots of trouble with the website timing out while she was filling out all the forms. It took several phone calls and several weeks to get the account up and running.

Her primary concern was access to her IRAs. They were stuck in her (small, local) US bank. The only way to withdraw funds from them for use in France was, according to them, to actually sit down in person in their manager's office and fill out a wire transfer form with her French bank account as the beneficiary.

This may be just her US bank's policy, so you may find a different situation with your bank as I'm far from being an expert in these matters.

In any case moving her IRAs was the principal reason for the SDFCU account. Well, SDFCU did move her IRAs to SDFCU - but again it required multiple phone calls and several weeks.

Most recently - mid-February - she requested an SDFCU debit card. There's nary a sign of it yet and it's nearly the end of March.

I'm not suggesting that SDFCU is unsatisfactory, just reporting our experience. Others here may have had entirely different experiences with them.
 
#20 ·
Just a note about SDFCU. Your experience may differ, but we've found that they make the rural French pace of business look breezy.

Through ACA, they opened an account for my other half, living here in France, so hurrah for that. However, it was a frustrating experience all round. She had lots of trouble with the website timing out while she was filling out all the forms. It took several phone calls and several weeks to get the account up and running.

Her primary concern was access to her IRAs. They were stuck in her (small, local) US bank. The only way to withdraw funds from them for use in France was, according to them, to actually sit down in person in their manager's office and fill out a wire transfer form with her French bank account as the beneficiary.

This may be just her US bank's policy, so you may find a different situation with your bank as I'm far from being an expert in these matters.

In any case moving her IRAs was the principal reason for the SDFCU account. Well, SDFCU did move her IRAs to SDFCU - but again it required multiple phone calls and several weeks.

Most recently - mid-February - she requested an SDFCU debit card. There's nary a sign of it yet and it's nearly the end of March.

I'm not suggesting that SDFCU is unsatisfactory, just reporting our experience. Others here may have had entirely different experiences with them.
Yes, SDFCU's customer service leaves much to be desired. Applying for a new account as an expat is particularly grueling and time-consuming. My wife opened her SDFCU account and then a year later applied for a credit card with an 817 credit rating, but was denied.

But for the expat who has been caught short without enough US checking accounts, SDFCU is the only game in town as far as I am aware.
 
#23 ·
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#24 ·
I use SDFCU, and compared to the other 3 banks I opened US accounts with, SDFCU has been fabulous.

After several years on the road, mostly outside the US, I had battle-tested SDFCU enough to know I could close the other accounts.

As for brokerage accounts (all IRA and Roth) I expect to eventually get the dreaded closure notice from my firm. When that happens, I'll move the accounts to management at Creative Financial's expat unit, previously Thun Financial.

I don't trade in my retirement accounts, except to rebalance and make semi-annual draws. But other's experience has been that that was enough to trigger a closure notice. There is no set formula to know what can trigger a closure notice.

So, I have simply gotten prepared for the likely eventuality. I've followed the gang at Thun Financial and am confident they will provide the service I need when the time comes from a closure notice, or I reach the moment I should take my hands off the wheel.

To stay abreast of these kinds of issues that can be devastating to expats, I joined AmericansAbroad.org. They also maintain lists of service providers and tips on issues of concern. This is how I learned about SDFCU, and qualified to open my accounts there. Great value for my $50+/- per year.