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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hi

I am looking for work in Paris and just had a question maybe someone could help with. I have heard (from a friend of a friend) that when you get your 1st job in France you don't get any vacation/holidays for the 1st year. I am an Irish (EU) national. I am 33 years old and if this is true I'd be very shocked. If anyone knows anything about this pleas let me know. Perhaps its just for school-leavers/university graduates taking their 1st job. Does it apply to EU migrant workers too?

thanks

Richard
 
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No... France tends to be particularly lenient with respect to statutory job conditions, although there may be 'trial' periods that fall out of the scope of that framework. I know some were up in arms when the rights of trial period workers were allegedly being undermined by Sarkozy legislation early on in his reign - but that was mainly to do with 'just cause' for not furthering employment, rather than holiday issues.

Zero holiday for someone employed for a year? I would stick my neck out and say 'impossible' (legally). In a job where you are employed indefinitely, France still has the minimum 25 paid days' holiday annually, although short-term contracts differ. Even so, for example students employed on a short-term (eg seasonal) contract, are entitled to claim back a percentage sum of total gross pay with respect to any untaken paid holiday during employment.
 

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Hi

I am looking for work in Paris and just had a question maybe someone could help with. I have heard (from a friend of a friend) that when you get your 1st job in France you don't get any vacation/holidays for the 1st year. I am an Irish (EU) national. I am 33 years old and if this is true I'd be very shocked. If anyone knows anything about this pleas let me know. Perhaps its just for school-leavers/university graduates taking their 1st job. Does it apply to EU migrant workers too?

thanks

Richard
I am pretty sure it applies to everyone, but would love to be told wrong..
I was also surprised to see that you have to take your paid vacation from May through october...I guess with RTT and all that it does not totally matter but thought that was a weird rule dating from older times...
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Hi

It was a French person who said that there was no holidays in the 1st year. I have also heard this from 2 other French people, and you. But I would like to see this referenced somewhere, or see some sort of proof/law, one way or another. So far its just hearsay. Does it apply to CDD or CDI or both. Surely this "rule" must be written down somewhere?

Richard
 
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Hmm perhaps you mean you can't take the holiday due during the first year - yes in the case of a CDI I think that used to be the case, although under the Aubry II legislation I'm not sure of the current situation.

The year is often calculated from June 1st to May 31st - so if you start end April, you're due a couple of days at the start of June. But if you start eg in June, you used to have to wait until the following June to claim holiday entitlement (that will have accrued from the first day you started work). I think that's changed though, there's a useful text here (in French).

Actually I think the current minimum entitlement is 2.5 days per month, ie 5 weeks a year.
 

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The way your annual holiday works in France is a little complicated, and depending on when in the year you start work, can result in your having no holiday your first year.

The holiday/vacation year in France runs from June 1st to May 31st. This is the period in which you earn your vacation - for each month you work, you earn 2.08 vacation days. You can't take this time, however, until the next vacation year.

If you start work Jan 1st (for example), by June 1st, you've earned 5 * 2.08 days of vacation = 10.4 days, which you can take starting May 1st (i.e. in the next vacation year). Technically, if you start work on June 1st you get no holiday time until the following May - at which time you have a full 5 weeks accumulated.

Then, just to make things interesting, you have to be allowed to take up to 4 weeks of accumulated vacation time in a block during the period from May 1st to October 31st. If you have the full 5 weeks accumulated you may NOT take the 5th week at the same time you take your first 4 weeks.

The "rule" is part of French labour law - and you can find it in any of a number of reference books for people doing payroll work (generally in French) or in any book that outlines "your rights as an employee."
Cheers,
Bev
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Many thanks for your reply, this is sounding more like an explanation for what I've heard indirectly before.

If you start work Jan 1st (for example), by June 1st, you've earned 5 * 2.08 days of vacation = 10.4 days, which you can take starting May 1st (i.e. in the next vacation year). Technically, if you start work on June 1st you get no holiday time until the following May - at which time you have a full 5 weeks accumulated.
So by the sounds of it in this case, you start on say 1st Jan 09 and you don't get to take any holidays until 1st May 2010, 17 months without a day off? Is this actually what happens? Can one not take the 10.4 days they earned between 1/1/09 and 31/5/09 sometime after 1/6/09? What about RTT? is this done in the same way, ie: earn it in one vacation year, take it in the next...

The "rule" is part of French labour law - and you can find it in any of a number of reference books for people doing payroll work (generally in French) or in any book that outlines "your rights as an employee."
Thanks, unfortunately I haven't been able to find any info on this, any idea of a book title or a link on the www ?

best regards

Richard
 

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So by the sounds of it in this case, you start on say 1st Jan 09 and you don't get to take any holidays until 1st May 2010, 17 months without a day off? Is this actually what happens? Can one not take the 10.4 days they earned between 1/1/09 and 31/5/09 sometime after 1/6/09? What about RTT? is this done in the same way, ie: earn it in one vacation year, take it in the next...
Don't get your years confused. If you start work on 1 Jan 09, you can first take your holidays 1 June 09 - though you won't have a full 25 days by then, only about 12 or 13 days for the 2009-10 vacation year.

The bummer is if you start work 1 June 09 or over the summer, because then you can't take any vacation time earned until the following June (i.e. June 2010).

As for titles - I'd check something like "L'avocat chez vous" or any of the handy reference books about legal and financial stuff for households. My source is a rather pricey "Social" dictionary dealing with social insurances and personnel rules for accountants and HR mopes.
Cheers,
Bev
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
thanks, what confused me regarding the years was
If you start work Jan 1st (for example), by June 1st, you've earned 5 * 2.08 days of vacation = 10.4 days, which you can take starting May 1st (i.e. in the next vacation year). Technically, if you start work on June 1st you get no holiday time until the following May - at which time you have a full 5 weeks accumulated.
I thought you were going ahead from June 1st to May 1st the following year. ;)

So what about when you change job, are all of these days stored in a central system by government or do they just get passed along when you change job. Ie: if I had 5 weeks built up and took a new job in July, could I take my 4 weeks off in August. If so who'd be paying me for this? Sounds a bit unfair on the new employer... That's what's confusing for me. Also is the June 1st - May 31st thing the law? In Ireland when you take a new job you earn your days month by month and usually an employer will be flexible, ie: if you start in June and if you've a previously arranged 2 week holiday in July they'll let you go into negative days, as they know they have you anyway, and if you leave owing them days they'll just be deducted out of your final pay. Basically what I'm asking is "Is there any flexibility in this system?" or is it covered by inflexible national statutes?

I'm looking at starting work the beginning of October, so it looks like it would be 8 months before I'd be entitled to leave. I'm used to having a week off for Christmas, home with the family etc and a week skiing normally in March, won't be happening this year then? :(

richard
 

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The June 1st, May 1st thing is confusing - so much so that I wind up having to look it up all the time for our company. June 1st is the start of the "vacation year" for earning vacation, and May 1st is the beginning of the period in which you are supposed to take your accumulated vacation.

Your vacation doesn't transfer from employer to employer if you change jobs. Technically, if you start work in October, you aren't entitled to take vacation at Christmas that year. Practically speaking, it's kind of up to the employer if he wants to be flexible about it. Legally, the employer only has to adhere to the letter of the law. Being "nicer" than the law requires isn't out of the question, but workers in France can be rather fanatical about "egalité" and they tend to want all workers treated the same. Then again, some companies simply shut for a few days at Christmastime. It certainly pays to ask, at any rate.
Cheers,
Bev
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
Your vacation doesn't transfer from employer to employer if you change jobs.
So I guess everyone looks for new jobs during La Rentree, taking your August off and then get on to that new career - changing jobs in June or July would be crazy...

One last question, how doe the RTT work? Is that on a Quarter by Quarter basis, or is that calculated on the 1/6 -31/5 basis as well?

thanks for your help with this

Richard
 

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Hi ReJoyce...

I am also Irish looking to move to France for the year! Are you there already, have you gained employment there or going in the hope of finding work? Can you send me any info you have to me that may be useful?
Gearoid
 
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The holiday/vacation year in France runs from June 1st to May 31st. This is the period in which you earn your vacation - for each month you work, you earn 2.08 vacation days. You can't take this time, however, until the next vacation year.
Bev - are you sure about the 2.08 days, have I misunderstood the Ministry text at that link, ref the 2.5 days monthly (for salaried employees)? Wouldn't be surprised!
 

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Bev - are you sure about the 2.08 days, have I misunderstood the Ministry text at that link, ref the 2.5 days monthly (for salaried employees)? Wouldn't be surprised!
OK, just to complicate matters a bit, there are two ways to calculate vacation time in France. The 2.08 days refers to those working a 5 day week. Traditionally, the 2.5 days per month is based on the system where the Saturdays included during your vacation time are counted, whether you normally work Saturdays or not.

Under the "Saturdays included" system, you get 30 holiday days per year (i.e. 5 weeks of 6 days) - but it still only comes to 5 weeks. Some companies and the government still use that system because it's easier to calculate. The 2.08 days is a rounded figure and you have to clear the fractional days at the end of each vacation year.
Cheers,
Bev
 
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Ok, I thought you were saying only 4 weeks instead of 5, in which case I would have been giving an extra week a year to our employees for the last 15 years!
 
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