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how the healthcare reforms affect EU citizens in Spain & application for res. certs.

28K views 142 replies 28 participants last post by  el pescador 
#1 · (Edited)
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#2 ·
If you are applying for your residence certificate, you may be asked to show proof that you are covered for healthcare in Spain when making your application. If you are a UK state pensioner for example, you may be able to use your S1 form to meet this requirement.
This bit looks new.
Forgive me if I'm wrong about this being new, but we did this the other way around, residence, then healthcare, because we needed the residencia card before we could apply at our local health centre.

It does need noting, as I would guess that many people apply for the S1 once they are all set up here, as they don't want to lose their UK entitlement until they have entitlement in Spain.
 
#3 ·
yes, that is new - though 'old' as well, if you see what I mean - you had be able to prove healthcare in the old days when you had to 'apply for residencia'


& you're probably right about the S1 too - though since 'legally' you lose your UK entitlement as soon as you leave - it's probably best to sort it out ASAP

I suppose you could phone up for the form just before you leave for Spain or as soon as you arrive - I think it took about 10 days for the form to get here when I rang them for my dad's last year
 
#4 ·
"If you are applying for your residence certificate, you may be asked to show proof that you are covered for healthcare in Spain when making your application. "

Do they mean the NIE?
If so, since you need a NIE to buy a holiday home surely all you will need is your EU healthcare card which doesn't address the permanent\ visitor problem! :confused:
 
#8 ·
NO. The NIE is just an identity number.

What they refer to as 'residence certificate' is also known as a 'residencia' but is really just a green sheet of A4 paper (may be smaller in some places) showing that you have been added to the list of foreigners in Spain.
 
#10 ·
There's more!
This was a direct question to the EU immigration & citizens rights lawyers who liased with the Spanish Interior Ministry in Madrid.

"The question you raise concerns the application of Directive 2004/38 in Spain which is transposed under Spanish law by virtue of Real Decreto 240/07.

Residence documentation:

Your underlying question concerns the kind of document which Spanish authorities issue when an EU citizen (eg a UK citizen) requests confirmation of his right of residence in Spain.

In pursuance of removing administrative burdens for EU citizens when requesting confirmation of the right of residence under EU law, please note that Directive 2004/38 abolished residence cards or permits for EU citizens.

Accordingly, EU States may no longer issue residence permits or cards to EU citizens, following the entry into force of the Directive in question (2004/38), on the 30th April 2006.

Instead of a residence card or permit, Member States may only demand that EU citizens register their residence in the host Member State by way of a Registration Certificate (article 8 Directive 2004/38).

The recent novelty in this respect concerns the appearance and looks of the registration certificate, which has been made to look like a card as opposed to the A4 sized certificates which were issued previously.

1. Registration certificates which are issued to EU citizens under article 8 Directive 2004/38 do not have an expiry date.

Registration certificates contain the following information:
Name, Surname, Nationality, Address, ID number and date of Registration (Article 7 (1) Real Decreto 240/07).

2. Permanent residence is obtained under Article 16 Directive 2004/38, upon having resided legally for a continuous period of five years in Spain. This right arises automatically. There is no legal obligation to obtain and process this by way of application.

Applicants have the option of applying for the Permanent Residence certificate, but they are not obliged to do so.

Where such an application is submitted, the relevant authority in Spain will issue the certificate of permanent residence in question.

This certificate does not contain an expiry date (article 10 RD 240/07). If your question is whether permanent residence can be lost, the answer is provided under Article 16 paragraph 4, which provides that permanent residence is lost following the absence from the Member State in question for a period in excess of 2 consecutive years. Your post does not justify what circumstances applied for the people mentioned in your post (who are advised they must renew their applications for a Registration certificate). If the suggestion is that the Spanish authorities are requiring EU citizens who have permanent residence to renew applications for registration certificates, this would appear to be incompatible with both the Directive and the Spanish transposition measure (RD 240/07).

They are also breaking the law by charging!

"EU citizens who wish to stay in another member state for more than three months are required to apply for a registration certificate. By law, the registration certificate should be issued on the spot. It is free of charge."

In addition there is NO requirement to carry the certificate, the EU Directive never even envisaged any requirement to carry this document with you, and the Royal Decree does not require it either & the police do not have any right to ask you for it!
 
#16 ·
gus-lopez said:
In addition there is NO requirement to carry the certificate, the EU Directive never even envisaged any requirement to carry this document with you, and the Royal Decree does not require it either & the police do not have any right to ask you for it!
The UKinSpain website which is managed by the UK Embassy states under

DOCUMENTS YOU SHOULD CARRY IN YOUR CAR

When driving your car in Spain, if stopped by the Police you would need the following

1. Driving Licence
2. Green Residents Certificate
3. ID Document i.e passport

There is clearly no hope for us mere mortals
 
#19 ·
Without really knowing details (what is your age / how close are you to retirement / have you contributed to NI in the UK), you probably will need private health insurance (the alternative is a S1 form to get temporary cover from the UK). They might want to see some bank statements showing regular income of money - I don't know if there are any minimum requirements.

With your husband from the US you might have to sort some other things out for your EEA family permit / visa, which might make it a bit more complicated.
 
#20 ·
They cannot ask you to supply something that is not required of a spanish national. The minimum resources , by their own admission, will not be above the level that is required before a spanish national is deemed to need assistance. This appears to be 440€ per month.

Seb , they've turned people away with S1's in the past week , in Almeria. Makes you wonder about the intelligence of the people they employ. :(
The situation re: healthcare in some areas of Andalucia is far worse than anywhere else & has been for years. Even staff & doctors believe that the UK residents are receiving healthcare FOC & nothing will convince them otherwise !
 
#22 ·
thanks


a friend who runs a lawyers practice has just told me that a minimum income of around 425€ a month is required - although some offices of course don't yet know these requirements


I've asked her to join & give us more info ;)


if she doesn't I'll keep passing info on.
 
#26 ·
there has just been a post on a local fb group from a woman who went with her passport & NIE to the extranjería in Denia today, to get her green residents cert.


she was told she needed to produce her vida laboral (work record) or proof that she was unemployed

she has been working here fro soem time, & her gestor is going to take it from here & go back for yet another appt. with her vida laboral



now - what are you supposed to do then, if you've just arrived & have no vida laboral? Or if you don't work here?

she obviously didn't ask, since it's not relevant to her ........


Interestingly they didn't ask her about healthcare - but then, if she's working she's covered
 
#27 ·
On a different forum (which I hardly ever go on of course :eyebrows:), it was stated that people are being refused a residency certificate if they can't provide the necessary documentation; That is;
  • Proof of income over 435 euros/month per person
  • Proof of health care (private or otherwise)

This raises a couple of questions - what about children or large families?, what if you have savings rather than a salary?, what are the figures for couples/families?
 
#32 ·
Confusion over how the Spanish Government intends to treat EU citizens re health and registration appears to rise by the hour.

Normally, I would take a 'wait and see' attitude to all this, but, having lived in Spain for a few years now and having had to deal with the contradictions, confusions and sometimes downright intransigence of various officials, this issue does concern me a lot.

Because it appears that everyone is confused by these changes (and supposed changes) and the result will not only be chaos, it will mean that some people will find themselves unable to gain access to state health care, even though they should be getting it.

Adding to that, with residencia criteria now being assessed too, some will fall foul of an over zealous official and be refused registration or re registration.
On the face of it, some would say that this doesn't matter that much as, if you are an EU citizen, you have the right to reside in Spain as long as you wish to do so.
But the reality is, without that green card (or sheet of paper...) there will be many things you are unable to do.

And of course there is the chicken and egg situation - you cannot get your health card without your green card, but you cannot get your green card without your health card....

And its all very well for the British Embassy to say that showing your S1 may be ok (that is, when yours has finally arrived in the post....), but they don't know for sure whether this will be acceptable.

This is all a total mess!
(but sadly I'm not surprised :()
 
#33 · (Edited)
EU citizens are entitled to enter any other EU country, to stay there indefinitely if they wish, and to work or retire there... automatically. They do not require the host state's permission to do so. There are only very limited grounds on which they can (in effect) ever be kicked out. They also acquire permanent resident status entirely automatically. They again do not need to undergo any formality to do so. It happens after 5 years whether the host state likes it or not.


EU citizens do NOT have the automatic right to work in another EU member state. All EU states apart from Britain and the ROI imposed strict quotas on the number of work-seeking immigrants from the former socialist bloc states when they gained entry to the EU in 2004.

As I understand it, the UK has now imposed restrictions on the entry of job seekers from Bulgaria and Romania. I believe Spain has done this too.

What people fail to understand is that most EU Directives contain clauses which allow individual member states some leeway in imposing their own restrictions.
Personally, I would understand it if Spain imposed quotas on work-seeking immigrants: an unemployment rate of 25% would justify that.

As for requiring a certain amount of income as a precondition for acquiring resident status: again, that is not uncommon in EU states. I had to prove that I had sufficient income to maintain myself without requiring state assistance when I moved to live in Prague.

And why not? I did not move to Spain in the expectation that the hard-pressed Spanish taxpayer should support me or supplement my income. I have no objection to paying towards my Spanish health care as long as I can afford to. If I couldn't afford to live a decent life here, at least equal to the standard of comfort I was used to in the UK, I would have stayed there.
Living in Spain is a privilege. It is not an entitlement.
 
#35 ·
As I've said before somewhere on here, when we moved to Spain in 2005 we enquired about residencia and were given a number of forms to fill in. We were also told that we needed to prove that we could maintain ourselves here.
I can't remember what the figures were, but they did not include savings, or any lump sum in the bank - we would have had to prove that we had a regular income coming in from work or pensions (although I guess that regular income from a savings scheme would have qualified if enough).

At that time, we only had the money left over after buying and modernising our house and a couple of pensions which my husband received for early retirement. It was not considered enough, so we just kept our heads down and worked on a solution.

Its the reason we did not apply for residencia until after I had set up my internet business and could prove I had regular money coming in. This is why I had to sign up as autonomo and produce bank statements to show satisfactory incomings and outgoings before we could apply for residencia.
This then gave us our (at the time) residencia cards and we could then gain access to the state health system under my name.
(although, on our arrival here, we could both have applied for an S1 to cover us for around 18 months, there was no point in doing so at the time, because without residencia we could not get signed up).

It was actually a worrying time. We could not get private health insurance as my husband had had health issues in the past so he could not get cover at a reasonable cost. So when he received the UK state pension we breathed a sigh of relief as he could now sign up for health care in his own right.

As for expecting the hard pressed Spanish tax payer to foot the bill for our health needs, that was not the case for us, and is not the case for those with an S1 (or an EHIC come to that), as the UK foots the bill for this.

The problem is that the Spanish do not appear to realise this, so promoting the idea that Brits and other EU citizens are sponging off the Spanish state goes down well in the popular press and appears to justify some officials refusing health cards to those who actually do have a right to claim them.

I don't think that anyone in the discussion (here and elsewhere) by now thinks that Spain, as a member of the EU, has no right to change the rules and take advantage of allowances in legislation for member states.
It is perfectly clear that they can do this.

What is getting to me is the confusion which these changes are generating - for the Spanish people as well as for expats.
They need to get their act together fast and make sure that local areas are made very clear about the changes which are actually taking place.
Otherwise chaos is going to reign for the foreseeable future.

And to intimate that those who cannot afford to live here should stay in the UK may be fine and good for those thinking about moving here. But what about all those expats who have abided by the rules but now wish to return to the UK (or another country of origin), but are stuck here with a house they cant sell?

This discussion is not about whether or not people should come to Spain. It's about how changes regarding health (and now it appears residencia also) are going to affect them.
 
#34 ·
Gus, if what you have posted as grounds for complaint were true, the EU would grind to a halt.
Romania and Bulgaria are piss-poor countries.
So...if what you say is EU law then every Bulgarian and Romanian has the right to enter the UK, to take one EU state as an example, and work and live?
Think about it.....:)
As I said, you will find that EU law allows for some measure of input according to the requirements of each member state.

Two examples: the Czech Republic Senate refused to pass a law banning smoking in public places. Afaik it has yet to pass all of the Equality Directive into national legislation.
The UK has inserted a 'marriage' qualification into some of its domestic equality legislation, following the UK Government's adoption of the Social Chapter of Maastrict Treaty. This restricts public sector pension payments to same -sex partners.
I've already mentioned the quotas imposed on job-seekers.
 
#56 ·
I wasn't referring to America

'the 'United States of Europe' is something that has often been used to describe how the EU would run - a level playing field - everything the same

perhaps some meant like the US - but mostly it was tongue in cheek & not a direct reference or an aspiration to be like the US


at least that's how I understood it, when it was all coming together as I was growing up
 
#57 ·
But the reality is that the Spanish Government (and local Governments) do not have Spanish nationals as their priority, otherwise they would be concentrating on finding ways to make life easier for them during this crisis, rather than making cuts in services and prescription charges and making labour laws which are already affecting many employed nationals.


Those labour laws which even after their recent modification are still far too restrictive - the third highest level of redundancy pay in the EU after Portugal and Lithuania - are in themselves unhelpful to promoting growth. As for helping Spaniosh nationals - easy to say but how, at a time when Spain is on the verge of a bailout?
This Government didn't cause this crisis,neither did the Government of Zapatero. Responsibility lies with the companies and individuals who gorged on cheap loans until they choked and the Single Market that allowed the free flow of such credit. According to The EConomist, Spain has a home ownership of 74% and the highest second home ownership rate in the EU.
As I see it,the Government is within its rights to look for any sources of income. Why should foreigners come here and exploit the country by working on the black and avoiding taxes, to take one obvious example. You and I may pay our taxes but many don't.
Some time ago many posters agreed with my contention that it is only right and natural for people to put their familiies first, before strangers. So why shouldn't the Spanish Government seek to protect the interests of Spanish people, their extended family, nation, tribe whatever you want to call it, first?
Internationalism, solidarity and all those high-minded principles are just that....highminded abstracts which have little effect if any on how people behave in real life.
Putting your fellow-citizens first isn't fascist or whatever...it's just human nature.

If the Spanish Government decioded to tell me to leave tomorrow, I'd ring the removal company.
Would I be happy? No, of course not.
Would I understand? Yes.
 
#58 ·
Those labour laws which even after their recent modification are still far too restrictive - the third highest level of redundancy pay in the EU after Portugal and Lithuania - are in themselves unhelpful to promoting growth. As for helping Spaniosh nationals - easy to say but how, at a time when Spain is on the verge of a bailout?
This Government didn't cause this crisis,neither did the Government of Zapatero. Responsibility lies with the companies and individuals who gorged on cheap loans until they choked and the Single Market that allowed the free flow of such credit. According to The EConomist, Spain has a home ownership of 74% and the highest second home ownership rate in the EU.
As I see it,the Government is within its rights to look for any sources of income. Why should foreigners come here and exploit the country by working on the black and avoiding taxes, to take one obvious example. You and I may pay our taxes but many don't.
Some time ago many posters agreed with my contention that it is only right and natural for people to put their familiies first, before strangers. So why shouldn't the Spanish Government seek to protect the interests of Spanish people, their extended family, nation, tribe whatever you want to call it, first?
Internationalism, solidarity and all those high-minded principles are just that....highminded abstracts which have little effect if any on how people behave in real life.
Putting your fellow-citizens first isn't fascist or whatever...it's just human nature.
I wont get into a debate on the new Labour Laws (even though, I admit, I mentioned them as an example :)) and who is to blame for this whole xxxxxxx mess (although I agree with you on that).

But I was answering your statement (and now this one) that the Spanish Government will seek to protect the interests of Spanish people.
Sure, immigrants will be a target, along with any other ways of bringing in money which can be thrown into the mix, but I don't think that the average Spanish national can feel safe either.
I have never believed in high minded principles, whatever they concern. They are usually just sop for election campaigns.

If the Spanish Government decided to tell me to leave tomorrow, I'd ring the removal company.
Would I be happy? No, of course not.
Would I understand? Yes.
If the Spanish Government asked me to leave tomorrow, sure I would understand. But I would not agree with their decision.
And I would not be ringing the removal company as we have nowhere to go!
I would be seeking help from any source I could - legal, political, Spain and UK.
Like many others, I have paid into the Spanish system for years and we have contributed to the Spanish Economy in many ways.
We would not go quietly. :)
 
#59 ·
you couldn't make it up..............

a friend has just posted on our local fb group that she had an appt for 9:30 this morning to change some details on her resident cert.

they rang her to cancel............... due to changes in the law they have cancelled all appointments


apparently they will be in touch when they know what they are supposed to be doing - maybe someone somewhere has realised that for some people complying with these new rules is a bit of a catch 22?
 
#63 ·
Thanks Xabia, it all sounds a mess, a friend of ours who has lived here 10 years and dealt with lots of applications for people is going to go to the foreigners office and see what he can find out for us, will update if I get any information, we wont be applying for residency until next week after we get married so will also update about what happens then
 
#69 ·
Yes, very bad timing, I did do lots of research about it before we came too but this wasnt widely known and I didnt find out until the day after we arrived! Oh well, we are here now so will have to see what we can do, hopefully it will all work out, I just dont want to get into trouble or get deported or something.
 
#72 ·
European Parliament and Council Communication clarifying rules:

EUR-Lex - 52009DC0313 - EN
Click on ES in bilingual diplay for spanish.
2.3. Residence of EU citizens for more than three months

EU citizens have a right of residence in the host Member State if they are economically active there. Students and economically inactive EU citizens must have sufficient resources for themselves and their family members not to become a burden on the social assistance system of the host Member State during their period of residence and have comprehensive sickness insurance cover.

The list of documents to be presented with the application for residence is exhaustive. No additional documents can be requested.

2.3.1. Sufficient resources

The notion of ‘sufficient resources’ must be interpreted in the light of the objective of the Directive, which is to facilitate free movement, as long as the beneficiaries of the right of residence do not become an unreasonable burden on the social assistance system of the host Member State.

The first step to assess the existence of sufficient resources should be whether the EU citizen (and family members who derive their right of residence from him or her) would meet the national criteria to be granted the basic social assistance benefit .

EU citizens have sufficient resources where the level of their resources is higher than the threshold under which a minimum subsistence benefit is granted in the host Member State. Where this criterion is not applicable, the minimum social security pension should be taken into account.

Article 8(4) prohibits Member States from laying down a fixed amount to be regarded as "sufficient resources" , either directly or indirectly, below which the right of residence can be automatically refused. The authorities of the Member States must take into account the personal situation of the individual concerned. Resources from a third person must be accepted[26].

National authorities can, when necessary, undertake checks as to the existence of the resources, their lawfulness, amount and availability. The resources do not have to be periodic and can be in the form of accumulated capital. The evidence of sufficient resources cannot be limited[27]. (*)

In assessing whether an individual whose resources can no longer be regarded as sufficient and who was granted the minimum subsistence benefit is or has become an unreasonable burden , the authorities of the Member States must carry out a proportionality test. To this end, Member States may develop for example a points-based scheme as an indicator. Recital 16 of Directive 2004/38 provides three sets of criteria for this purpose:

(1) duration

- For how long is the benefit being granted?

- Outlook: is it likely that the EU citizen will get out of the safety net soon?

- How long has the residence lasted in the host Member State?

(2) personal situation

- What is the level of connection of the EU citizen and his/her family members with the society of the host Member State?

- Are there any considerations pertaining to age, state of health, family and economic situation that need to be taken into account?

(3) amount

- Total amount of aid granted?

- Does the EU citizen have a history of relying heavily on social assistance?

- Does the EU citizen have a history of contributing to the financing of social assistance in the host Member State?

As long as the beneficiaries of the right of residence do not become an unreasonable burden on the social assistance system of the host Member State, they cannot be expelled for this reason[28].

Only receipt of social assistance benefits can be considered relevant to determining whether the person concerned is a burden on the social assistance system.

(*) Case C-424/98 Commission v Italy (para 37) - In essence, savings, investments etc. have to be taken into account.
 
#75 ·
Healthcare

This is what I was told today we require before we apply for Residencia.

Padron + 1 Copy (No older than 4 Week, we have one but we were told it was to old)
Passport +2 copies
Rental Contract + copy ( must be for 11 months)
Declaracion Jurada ( Proof of Income, so no burden on state )
Have been told by Oriheula Costa Town Hall (Playa Flamenca) that to get residencia you need to register S1 first.

I am still having trouble defining what they will accept as the Declaracion Jurada



:confused: Andy
 
#76 ·
This is what I was told today we require before we apply for Residencia.

Padron + 1 Copy (No older than 4 Week, we have one but we were told it was to old)
Passport +2 copies
Rental Contract + copy ( must be for 11 months)
Declaracion Jurada ( Proof of Income, so no burden on state )
Have been told by Oriheula Costa Town Hall (Playa Flamenca) that to get residencia you need to register S1 first.

I am still having trouble defining what they will accept as the Declaracion Jurada



:confused: Andy
:welcome:

thanks for that

did you ask if they would accept bank statements? I had heard that bank statements were accepted in Benidorm

presumably the rental contract must be for a minimum of 11 months, as opposed to actually 11 months?
 
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