Conflicting info on legalities.....please clarify

Go Back   Expat Forum For People Moving Overseas And Living Abroad > Europe > Portugal Expat Forum for Expats Living in Portugal

Portugal Expat Forum for Expats Living in Portugal The Portugal Expats forum is a community of people that have moved to Portugal from all over the World. This is the place for Expats to meet and discuss all aspects of the Portuguese way of life. Discuss anything from jobs, property in Portugal, culture, food, history and more.

Like Tree10Likes

Conflicting info on legalities.....please clarify


Reply
 
Subscribe to this Thread Thread Tools
  #1 (permalink)  
Old 21st April 2019, 08:14 PM
New Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2019
Posts: 18
Rep Power: 0
Gonzo393 is on a distinguished road
4 likes received

Default Conflicting info on legalities.....please clarify

Hi....I signed the contract on my new Portuguese home last week.

There were complications prior to signing and I wasn't sure I was even going to sign the contract unless I was 100% sure I was safe to do so.

The main issue is that the previous owners built 3 outbuildings attached to the main property and didn't obtain the necessary planning permission from the local council.

As a result, the council refused to issue a 'habitation' licence as part of the sale.

As I understand it, I have only purchased the 'heritance' for the property and was told I wouldn't be able to sell it as a result....it could only be inheritated from someone in my family.

This isn't necessarily a concern as we didn't buy the property to ever sell it. It will become a family home for many generations hopefully.

My main concern was if the local council enforced a demolition of the 3 buildings, which I would then have to fund the cost of demolishing and then reinstating with the required permission.

So I raised this concern at the signing and was told categorically by my lawyer, the notary and the sellers that this would not happen and there is no chance of the council issuing a demolition notice. The seller, who is also a notary, told me that i could also sell the property in the future should i choose, as long as it was on the same terms as this sale.On that basis I signed the contract.

A couple of days later I had dinner with another couple who have just done the same a few months earlier. They seemed to think that without a habitation licence, then you can't live in the property.

So now I'm a bit confused and would appreciate clarity from anyone in the know.

Would also be interested to know if it's possible to get retrospective planning permission from the local council. I keep reading that they all seem to be a law unto themselves and there is little consistency on rulings throughout Portugal. So maybe still hope for me to get the habitation licence if I pay the fee plus maybe an additional fee they would charge.

Thanks in advance.

Gonz

Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #2 (permalink)  
Old 22nd April 2019, 07:32 AM
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Nodeirinho Portugal by way of the UK & South Africa
Posts: 2,886
Rep Power: 1744
travelling-man has a reputation beyond reputetravelling-man has a reputation beyond reputetravelling-man has a reputation beyond reputetravelling-man has a reputation beyond reputetravelling-man has a reputation beyond reputetravelling-man has a reputation beyond reputetravelling-man has a reputation beyond reputetravelling-man has a reputation beyond reputetravelling-man has a reputation beyond reputetravelling-man has a reputation beyond reputetravelling-man has a reputation beyond repute
904 likes received
912 likes given

Users Flag! Originally from uk. Users Flag! Expat in portugal.
Default

I'd consult another lawyer if I were you & I'd guess there's a good chance your current one was recommended by the seller or agent.

Certainly your lawyer shouldn't have let you buy without a habitation licence & if nothing else should have pointed out that such lack could/should mean a lower price.......... and yes. It should have a habitation licence
JohnBoy, baldilocks and smudges like this.

Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #3 (permalink)  
Old 22nd April 2019, 10:37 AM
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Nodeirinho Portugal by way of the UK & South Africa
Posts: 2,886
Rep Power: 1744
travelling-man has a reputation beyond reputetravelling-man has a reputation beyond reputetravelling-man has a reputation beyond reputetravelling-man has a reputation beyond reputetravelling-man has a reputation beyond reputetravelling-man has a reputation beyond reputetravelling-man has a reputation beyond reputetravelling-man has a reputation beyond reputetravelling-man has a reputation beyond reputetravelling-man has a reputation beyond reputetravelling-man has a reputation beyond repute
904 likes received
912 likes given

Users Flag! Originally from uk. Users Flag! Expat in portugal.
Default

I should have added that the Camara can fine the owner for building without permission & as you're now the owner, then it'll be you that has to pay if they do decide to impose a fine.

I've not had first hand experience of that situation but have heard figures in excess of €7k being mentioned but have no proof so in other words. that figure is hearsay.

Either way, I wish you good luck.

Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
  #4 (permalink)  
Old 22nd April 2019, 03:20 PM
New Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2019
Posts: 18
Rep Power: 0
Gonzo393 is on a distinguished road
4 likes received

Default

Thanks travelling man....Appreciate the advice. I'll certainly follow up with another lawyer to seek clarity.

I've since read online that habitation licences are only required for properties built from 1951. Ours was built in 1884 so on that basis I think we are ok.

I can't believe 2 notaries and a lawyer would allow a property to be sold without a habitation licence if one is required to be able to reside there.

Either way I'll take your advice and get clarity from another lawyer.

Cheers

Gonz

Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #5 (permalink)  
Old 22nd April 2019, 04:28 PM
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: Bayern
Posts: 354
Rep Power: 90
Strontium is a glorious beacon of lightStrontium is a glorious beacon of lightStrontium is a glorious beacon of lightStrontium is a glorious beacon of lightStrontium is a glorious beacon of lightStrontium is a glorious beacon of light
141 likes received

Users Flag! Originally from uk. Users Flag! Expat in spain.
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gonzo393 View Post
Thanks travelling man....Appreciate the advice. I'll certainly follow up with another lawyer to seek clarity.

I've since read online that habitation licences are only required for properties built from 1951. Ours was built in 1884 so on that basis I think we are ok.

I can't believe 2 notaries and a lawyer would allow a property to be sold without a habitation licence if one is required to be able to reside there.

Either way I'll take your advice and get clarity from another lawyer.

Cheers so stick yoiur

Gonz
Hi

If your Lawyer is a business then they have an official complaints book so ask them for it and put your (concise and substantiated) worries in writing - same for any agents or advisors.
JohnBoy and baldilocks like this.

Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #6 (permalink)  
Old 22nd April 2019, 04:38 PM
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Nodeirinho Portugal by way of the UK & South Africa
Posts: 2,886
Rep Power: 1744
travelling-man has a reputation beyond reputetravelling-man has a reputation beyond reputetravelling-man has a reputation beyond reputetravelling-man has a reputation beyond reputetravelling-man has a reputation beyond reputetravelling-man has a reputation beyond reputetravelling-man has a reputation beyond reputetravelling-man has a reputation beyond reputetravelling-man has a reputation beyond reputetravelling-man has a reputation beyond reputetravelling-man has a reputation beyond repute
904 likes received
912 likes given

Users Flag! Originally from uk. Users Flag! Expat in portugal.
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gonzo393 View Post
Thanks travelling man....Appreciate the advice. I'll certainly follow up with another lawyer to seek clarity.

I've since read online that habitation licences are only required for properties built from 1951. Ours was built in 1884 so on that basis I think we are ok.

I can't believe 2 notaries and a lawyer would allow a property to be sold without a habitation licence if one is required to be able to reside there.

Either way I'll take your advice and get clarity from another lawyer.

Cheers

Gonz
I can well believe it.......... The number of tuck ups I hear about is scary.

Just in my immediate area over the last year or so I know of 3 purchases where the buyers thought they had bought house & land but in fact had bought house only & no land whatsoever, one ruin that had sat on the market unsold for decades with an asking price of under €5k & was suddenly sold for 10 times the asking price (to a new immigrant) 2 where the buyer was scammed into paying the agent(s) €6k & €7.5k 'commission' & 1 where someone thought they'd bought the entire property but has now discovered another owner exists.

And then there's the murky world of 'immigration assistants' types that gleefully & obscenely overcharge new immigrants to get them their new documents such as NIF & Residencias & help them with car matriculation.

The sharks are always circling.
JohnBoy and baldilocks like this.

Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #7 (permalink)  
Old 22nd April 2019, 05:42 PM
baldilocks's Avatar
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Castillo de Locubín in the Sierra Sur de Jaén, Spain
Posts: 15,947
Rep Power: 129639
baldilocks has a reputation beyond reputebaldilocks has a reputation beyond reputebaldilocks has a reputation beyond reputebaldilocks has a reputation beyond reputebaldilocks has a reputation beyond reputebaldilocks has a reputation beyond reputebaldilocks has a reputation beyond reputebaldilocks has a reputation beyond reputebaldilocks has a reputation beyond reputebaldilocks has a reputation beyond reputebaldilocks has a reputation beyond repute
8816 likes received
13715 likes given

Users Flag! Originally from england. Users Flag! Expat in spain.
Default

Yes as Strontium says, the Complaints book is a very useful tool. Just asking for it suggests you know the rules and can provoke an immediate response.
JohnBoy and travelling-man like this.

Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #8 (permalink)  
Old 22nd April 2019, 06:35 PM
New Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2019
Posts: 18
Rep Power: 0
Gonzo393 is on a distinguished road
4 likes received

Default

Thanks all.....Appreciate the replies. I've since had confirmation from a lawyer and from online research that a habitation licence is only required for properties built from 1951. Ours was built in 1884 and so doesn't require a habitation licence.

So all seems in order and I'm mighty relieved.

I couldn't get my head around 2 notaries and a lawyer allowing something like that to happen, particularly given the risk to their reputations and careers.

Thanks again.

Gonz

Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #9 (permalink)  
Old 23rd April 2019, 07:51 AM
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Nodeirinho Portugal by way of the UK & South Africa
Posts: 2,886
Rep Power: 1744
travelling-man has a reputation beyond reputetravelling-man has a reputation beyond reputetravelling-man has a reputation beyond reputetravelling-man has a reputation beyond reputetravelling-man has a reputation beyond reputetravelling-man has a reputation beyond reputetravelling-man has a reputation beyond reputetravelling-man has a reputation beyond reputetravelling-man has a reputation beyond reputetravelling-man has a reputation beyond reputetravelling-man has a reputation beyond repute
904 likes received
912 likes given

Users Flag! Originally from uk. Users Flag! Expat in portugal.
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gonzo393 View Post
Thanks all.....Appreciate the replies. I've since had confirmation from a lawyer and from online research that a habitation licence is only required for properties built from 1951. Ours was built in 1884 and so doesn't require a habitation licence.

So all seems in order and I'm mighty relieved.

I couldn't get my head around 2 notaries and a lawyer allowing something like that to happen, particularly given the risk to their reputations and careers.

Thanks again.

Gonz
That still doesn't explain the lack of planning permission & you're lawyer should have jumped on that like a dog on a bone.

Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #10 (permalink)  
Old 24th April 2019, 08:47 AM
New Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2019
Posts: 18
Rep Power: 0
Gonzo393 is on a distinguished road
4 likes received

Default

Thanks Travelling Man.....I believe there are many properties throughout Portugal that exist without planning permission. It seems to be the Portuguese way.

I hear what you say about our lawyer....I think she could have made things somewhat smoother by communicating things better and explaining Portuguese law better. Maybe partly due to the language barrier and maybe just the Portuguese way that if you don't ask then they assume you already know.

In her defence she did flag the licence issue early on and offered us the option of buying the heritance early on but I pushed for the habitation licence also as my understanding then was that we couldn't sell the property without this.

What should have been explained better, is that due to the age of our house we don't require a habitation licence and that we could in fact sell the property should we wish to without a habitation licence but on the same terms as I've just bought.

Not sure if I prefer the Portuguese way compared to the UK, albeit many parts of it are simpler and cheaper.

It's certainly been a learning experience I wouldn't want to do too often.

Thanks for your comments and advice.

Gonz

Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Reply


Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the Expat Forum For People Moving Overseas And Living Abroad forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:
Location
Where you live
Expat From Country
Please select the country you originate from. This will appear as a flag when you make posts on the site.
Expat To Country
Please select the country you have either moved to or want to relocate to. This will be presented on the site when you make posts.

Log-in


Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Need urgent info while filling education info in EOI - 189 jigarpatel Australia Expat Forum for Expats Living in Australia 0 26th February 2015 08:01 AM
Conflicting Info on Mailing Documents rinny Britain Expat Forum for Expats Living in the UK 3 27th May 2014 08:37 PM
US driver's license validity: conflicting info Sabicas Britain Expat Forum for Expats Living in the UK 1 7th January 2014 10:51 AM
Info on moving to Thialand canuck58 The Basement Lounge 2 21st April 2013 08:14 AM
Conflicting police check/meds info on forums debxav Australia Expat Forum for Expats Living in Australia 0 7th July 2008 09:47 PM

FORUM PARTNERS

ExpatForum.com is owned and operated by VerticalScope Inc.

Retiring Overseas Guides | Moving Overseas Guides | Cost of Living | Health Care Guides


All times are GMT. The time now is 01:52 AM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO
vBulletin Security provided by vBSecurity v2.2.2 (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2019 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.